I agree with these comments. Too many people think that by following a course they can then take on bookkeeping and even accounting work for self employed people. This in my view is wrong, they should have at least two years experience in the bookkeeping profession before taking on such responsible work.

They should get a job as a bookkeeper or accounts assistant first before becoming self employed. They will probably find that they will earn alot more being employed than they would if they were self employed.

If bookkeeping is to be a proper profession then both recognised qualifications and more importantly experience must be gained before becoming a self employed bookkeeper.

I can see both sides of the coin and indeed many people would say the same in regard to qualifications. However, I have come across many qualified people(nearly all chartered accountants) who really do not know what they are talking about. I was not qualified until this year due to MLR and MLR only. It has not prevented me from doing my job since 1991 as a finance manager/controller/payroll manager/accountant etc etc etc whatever you want to call me for SME's, some with turnovers in excess of £30m.

We all have to start somewhere. I do think you need experience and by taking courses helps. It is correct that you can earn more working for a co in bookkeeping than being self employed.

P

Alison

Being in those kind of roles, I can see how the salaries would vary however they are not comparable to a bookkeeper role - that would be one of financial controller in a smallish to medium company, which I would expect a higher salary.

I am lucky that I do both but for those that have to choose.......

P

Thanks Kris, thats very encouraging for me as I am doing the courses with no prior bookkeeping experience, other than simple things such as entering purchase and sales invoices and petty cash for my dad's company.  Ideally I would have liked to have gained experience working for someone first, but I have children and need to be flexible for school holidays and days off school ill which is not possible when working for a company.

I just need to build my confidence in order to take the plunge and actively look for clients.

Lisa

HI

I would say that experience is important, would say ideally if you have opportunity to get a few years experience for either an accountants (good for gaining experience in many different industries ideal for when you self employed bookkeeper) or in a large accounts department commercial company where there are persons with experience who can show you the ropes).

But would say best to take the plunge as self employed bookkeeper after a few years. I nearly never did, I had 12 years bookkeeping experience before I took the plunge (nearly did after 8 years even spending a day free course about starting out as self employed but just did not have the confidence to do so. I only took the plunge because when I got made redundant a few weeks before my wedding hubby gave me the push I needed, built me a website before the wedding and got me contacts so before we went of on honeymoon I had already started working for one client and had another lined up to start as soon as we returned from honeymoon.

I only got the ICB qualifications a year after I started as self employed bookkeeper.

Alison

HI Barbara

Would say that if you are in a full time job doing something else (with a regular salary) would be better to get some voluntary work in your spare time - there are probably many charities that would be grateful of this. If you can't find any charities needing this if you are a member of any social or sports groups who have a bank account are always crying out for volunteers. This is how I got a lot more experience then any job I have ever had. A social group I have been a member of for 13 years at first I did not have the confidence to volunteer for anything and was a member for about 10 years before I had the confidence and wanted to put something back into the organisation because it was the organisation that gave me confidence in myself to then have confidence to further my career (and added bonus met my husband through the social group) the accounts that an accountant prepared got rejected by the members for many many errors. Because the organisation could not afford to pay another accountant I redid all the bookkeeping and redid full accounts that was needed because the organisation was registered for corporation tax. This has then made me feel a little confident to be able to manage to do my own Limited Company Accounts and Corporation Tax form for the first time (our first year end fast approaching) because an accountant too expensive as we expanded into retail premises and have had a lot of unknown costs (boiler completely broken and needed new boiler system not cheap).

Would say that unless you are living in an error not affected as much with the recession that probably best to wait until the recession is over before going self employed as would say not as many clients taking on bookkeeping clients (I set up my business in August 2006) and lost 1 major and 2 minor clients and possible another client that has not brought paperwork to me which was suppose to be in May. I went from being more then full time hours bookkeeping 70+ hours a week to considerably less don't think I even have full time hours now but luckily we had expanded at the start of the recession with 3 other revenue streams as well as the bookkeeping.

Alison

Barbara

This has nothing to do with fear or the number of clients available, its about a quality service being delivered. There's no way that someone with no experience can deliver a quality service no matter what anyone says.

Kris

The point of it not being rocket science is hopefully not one of your selling points to clients. But it makes you realise why so many potential clients try do their own books.

The thing about web design is that its clear to see who designs poor web sites and who produces quality work, just look at the designers portfolio. A bookkeeping client can't do this and it could be over a year before they realise that you've cost them money.

Perhaps if you weren't so inexperienced you'd realise that there's more to it. How much value adding is your service to the client, are you really saving them time and money?

Everyone on the site goes on about the average rate in their area being £8 to £12 per hour. No wonder, the people doing it don't know what they're doing!

E

I was trying hard to stay out of this but your last statement orange is completely unfounded.

I am guessing you have experience when it comes to bookkeeping (although I haven't seen any evidence of it) but you have no idea what you are talking about, when it comes to people. Are you really conceipted enough to believe that no body is able to over come a problem they have not encountered before?

Experience is something you get when you are looking for something else and being able to learn form it is what intelligent people do.

Experience does have advantages, it can give confidence and it may make completing an irregular task quicker but it does not mean that someone without experience is incapable of doing quality, professional work. What makes someone unprofessional is a poor attitude to the task.

Even you must come across things in bookkeeping you've never experienced before. Do you pass it on to some one else?

Probably like most of us, i've been following this thread and not making any comment until now.
 
Based on my own circumstances, i had some experience when i set up my own business and in  fact for a long while ran my business and a paid job in conjunction while i built up more experience.

My opinion is that it would not really be possible to offer bookkeeping services without at least 6 months experiences and only then the very basic of services  such as just keeping the sales and purchase ledgers up to date.

To offer a more comprehensive service, i would not have been able to do this with experience otherwise i would have felt i was doing my customers a dis-service.

Dont get me wrong, i'm not saying it cant be done its just i wouldnt have felt comfortable doing it.

I am glad it is not only I who finds Orange offensive.

In reply to your comments I totally understand why many people choose to do their own books, and it is simply because (for most) it really isn't rocket science. I would never lie to anyone about that. The difference between DIY and getting a professional in for many things is quality and time. I can add a new electric socket in my house. It might take me 3 hours in total. Or I can get an electrician, and because he is a professional, he does it day in and day out he'll can do it far neater and in maybe an hour.

Take that to Bookkeeping and the question I do ask people who do their own is how much it costs them. How valuable their time is. What else they could be doing to grow their business instead of doing their books. A plumber may earn £40 per hour, but he can't earn that if he's spending 4 hours doing something that may take me less than half that. So he has to weigh up £120 of lost income v's £40.

I think theres another issue here Orange, are you finding it difficult getting clients with all these bookkeepers charging "£8 to £12 per hour"?

Again, like others I'm not sure of your background or skill base as you don't seem to join in with the 'helping' posts like the rest of us.

Perhaps you'd be interested in sharing your views of the value I may not be adding do to being inexperienced?

I find it strange though that the last time we had a discussion you were backing up a franchise that doesn't require any bookkeeping skills at all. I'm still not really sure where you hang your hat.

Kris

Hi Micky

Welcome to the forum, I can see that you are going to be very popular around here with all of your knowledge gained from completing 1iab 2 comp, we will all know where to come for advice.

IMHO experience is key, clients don't want to know how well qualified I am they want to know if I can do the job and 25 years experience tells them I know what to do.

I wish you every success in your business and hope all of your potential clients fit the same pattern as you have found in your iab 2 comp course. But a quick question, if they don't how will you deal with them with no other knowledge than from a text book.

Good luck

Hi,

wow that has opened some can of worms. Surely if you understand the principals of bookkeeping and seek help if you need it in areas you are not familiar with, then previous experience should not matter so much, yes it may take the bookkeeper longer as they are not so experienced but usually that would result as a cost to the bookkeeper not the client?

Orange, maybe you are referring to bookkeepers who are not experienced and are careless when they come accross something they don't have the knowledge of and end up making a hash of things? I'm sure these people are in the minority and that can happen with a complacent 'experienced' bookkeeper asswell as said in previous posts.. let's not generalise, we all have to start somewhere.

Carole

"I would also never take on doing final accounts for anyone (not that I can't) because that is the job of an accountant not a book-keeper and I think it is quite arrogant of book-keepers to think they could/should do this."

I've never thought of it as being arrogant to do something that you can do. Surely the days when you only do what's on your job description shouldn't even exist if you work for yourself. In industry those people are called 'jobsworths' aren't they?

I'm fairly new to this forum and yesterday I was reading somewhere that bookkeepers don't do tax returns (I think it was this forum), and I was taken aback, because I've always done tax returns for my clients.

As long as we know our limitations (and I do), what's wrong with doing what we can do?

Christine

Thanks Kris,

Yes, it's all really about capability.  No amount of qualifications or experience proves anybody's ability to do the work.  Equally, lack of it doesn't demonstrate inability, either.

As long as you know what you can and can't do and don't go behond that, I think it's fine.

Christine

One of my clients runs a mobile disco. He started his business in January 2009. His turnover for the tax year 2008-2009 was less than £500. I did his tax return for him. there was no way that any tax saving would come anywhere near to the difference between my fee and the fee that local accountants were quoting him. I don't always do tax returns, but neither would I say no as I don't think it's something you need to be an accountant for. HMRC clearly say that you should be able to do it yourself. Tax needn't be taxing.

Kris

semsley wrote:

---

To become a qualified chartered accountant takes 5 years of study and work experience together with rigorous examinations.  To become a book-keeper appears to take however long it takes to complete a course of home study.  I know which I would prefer to take care of my tax and advise me on the best way to legally avoid paying too much.

---

As I said earlier, it's about capabiltiy.

Being a chartered accountant does not guarantee that a client will get a good service.

I have recently seen a substantial mis-calculation of tax made by an accountant who didn't understand a client with tax credits, and I'm sure most of us have seen horror stories committed by accountants.

I personally would prefer to have someone who knows what they're doing, rather than simply look at qualifications.

For me?  I am qualified (and not on a home-study course), and I have 30+ years of experience.

Christine

I agree with you entirely.

Christine

I've just scanned thru the posts so maybe i have not got the jist of the conversation however i've never come across so many comments criticising bookkeepers - especailly on a "bookkeepers forum"

I follow other forums aswell - UK business forms, accountuing web and sometimes this pops up - bookkeepers getting criticised especailly by accountants.

We all know that a lot of people do a home study course and feel they can become a bookkeeper, some do in fact and turn into excellent bookkeepers, other dont and fall by the wayside.

All us bookkeepers out there know we do a good job for our clients, some are QBE, some have done a home study course etc......does it relly matter at the end of the day. Wouldn't it be a boring place if we all followed the same path to get where we want to go, its called individuality.

Semsley,

I think we need to be careful not to tar everyone who has never been an employee with the same brush. I am one of your 'done a course, became self employed' bookkeepers. I think I provide a high quality service to all of my clients. You get bad in every profession. There are also many people out there who complete courses then peruse a line of work without experience PAT and HIP spring to mind straight away.

I think there are a few on here in the same boat as me, in fact, the owners of the forum actively encourage this if you have ever read the bookcert course. I don't think any of us provide a second class service, and our client base is proof of this.

Kris

I think we're just going to need to agree to disagree on this matter.

Kris

and one last comment to the people who put you cant learn much from a home based study course, the course i done was classroom based not home based and the accounts i dealt with whilst doing sage before i took the level 2 exam were actually from real companies not made up figures and yes problems were thrown into the equation to help you deal with REAL life problems not textbook problems.

Your right Kris and to be honest its one of those arguments that will never be won.
I think what annoyed me more about orange was a comment you made earlier in the post about her backing a franchise thats looking for bookkeepers with no experience then slating people for doing what she is backing.

And the sarcasm from a certain other member really was un called for in my opinion but like you said its snobbery.

im not saying expereince doesnt count for anything because in a way it does but that doesnt mean i cant be succesful just because i havent got x amount of years experience because if this was the case alot of these multinational companies would not be around.




-- Edited by MickyG on Sunday 20th of December 2009 08:36:08 PM

my point being that some of these companies were started with people who had no experience of the sector but still went on to be very successful, the same can apply with bookkeeping,

But like kris said what anyone else thinks really is irrelevant as long as i do a good job for the clients then thats all that matters

TMe,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. You know you're not comfortable with taxation, so you don't get involved in it. You do only what your confident doing. That's perfect common sense as far as I'm concerned.

Kris