Nasty shock - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

littlebookkeeper · Senior Member

Nasty shock

gerry · Senior Member

Hi Carole

Hmmm, that does sound a bit harsh, I know that many governing institutes have restrictions like this, maybe with good cause, I do not know as I don't belong to them.

I actually have no qualifications but plenty of experience as an Accounts Manager for a large Multinational company. I started self employed in July this year and had clients before I set up the business ( i am still trying to sort out my stationery and website etc!)

My clients are very happy with my work and have further recommended me to other clients. I have a couple of limited companies that I look after and process as much as I can before the accountants take over for the year end. I also have a sole trader and will complete his accounts at the end of the year but I have the back up of an accountant should I need it.

I have never been asked my qualifications but would have gone down this route had I felt I needed to.

I therefore have no restrictions to what I can do except for my own relating to my ability.

I registered with HMRC as sole trader and also registered with MLR for £120 per year. I am about to apply for insurance too, I don't think there are any restrictions for the non qualified but I will soon find out.

This is my story, I hope it helps a little, I am sure that others can give advice on the qualification route.

Good Luck

Gerry

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Carole

I have done Level III comp with ICB and do not have manual level II or III, and no one asked any questions or stopped me from doing them.....

P

littlebookkeeper · Senior Member

Hi P,

As soon as I mentioned the level III, I was told I had to have both level I and II manual in order to do the diploma but then the guy did turn out to be from an internet training company so maybe he was trying to sell me something I don't need, most unprofessional if he was! Or maybe they have changed the rules since you did it.....

Could I ask what kind of services you offer with the computerised diploma out of curiosity? Thanks

Thanks for your story Gerry, I guess I will have to contact my insurance company to find out about offering services outwith what I am qualified to do on paper and take it from there. Just want to make sure things are in order.

Carole

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Carole

I only did it last month!

Under ICB I do not offer any services at the moment but prob will in around 6 months time when I restructure myself. I was always under the impression that you could do everything that is needed for a person/company etc that used an accounting software package, but if that is not the case, then they should make it that you cannot do any comp exams until the manual ones are complete.

P

Wella · Expert

Hi Carole

I just had a look at the ICB website and in the section Membership by Examination it states that level II takes you to the preperation of final accounts for a soletrader. Therefore I would suggest that you can do more than TB (but not for partnerships or Ltds). Also in the Examinations Required for Membership section it does not state that you have to have manual grade to achieve level III computerised. I believe you can apply for MICB (comp) if you choose to do only the computerised diploma. On the website they advise taking both but it's not compulsory.

As Gerry says, you do not need formal qualifications to carry out bookkeeping work but as you are a member and a member in practice of the ICB you are governed by their Professional Conduct Regulations, which does state you cannot carry out work for clients that you are not ICB qualified to do.

Bill

littlebookkeeper · Senior Member

Hi, thanks for your comments.

Thanks Bill for reading the bit on the ICB website, I will have a look at the syllabuses for the manual level II and computerised diploma. Appreciate your help,

Carole

littlebookkeeper · Senior Member

Well after all that and revisiting the ICB website the penny has finally dropped!

It is slightly annoying that I have to sit the level II manual exam but now I realise that this will be the cheapest and probably faster way to getting the diploma.

The reason being there are only a few providers who offer the computerised diploma as a course so I would probably have to follow a whole course in order to sit the exam with them and also you can't download mock papers for the computerised diploma so I wouldn't have an idea of what it would be like otherwise.

So I can see why the guy recommended the best option for me would be to do it this way and do the manual exam. I feel a lot happier than I did this morning anyway!

Carole

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Carole

You can always get them to send you a mock paper, it only costs £5. If you know Sage, then you should not need anything more really. I do think its a great idea to do the manual stuff, I just can't plan that in at the present mo, so will have to wait.

P

Alison · Senior Member

Hi

I was relieved when I switched from ICB to IAB, I asked them if there was any restrictions, they said that no as long as people don't take on work that is beyond their capability then not a problem, and that there many people offering accounting/bookkeeping service who have not bothered to put time and effort into studying so they don't stand in the way of IAB members.

Alison

gerry · Senior Member

I think the comment about not bothering to put the time and effort in studying is demeaning to those of us that do not have formal qualifications but have set up as bookkeepers.

I have no formal qualifications but have had many years experience in which during that time I have had to learn things the hard way, often studying in order to find out what I need to know.

I have learnt Sage and Quickbooks myself, this can be very daunting without the support of a tutor, it does not mean that I have taken the easy way out, far from it. and it does also not mean that I am less experienced than others that have taken the course.

There are many posts on this forum with people that have qualifictions and no experience, does that make them more qualified to do the job than someone, who the IAB see as not "bothering" to study. I think not.

I think there is a place for formal qualifications and qualified by experience and the IAB are short sighted if they think that some of us have not bothered to put the time and effort in.

Gerry

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Here here Gerry.

I have been 'practising' since 1991, am self taught in every way from PAYE the old manual way, CIS, incomplete records, LTD co's, partnerships to Sage/VT/Quickbooks etc etc etc, infact any type of computerised system, the list goes on...

For some reason, people think that just because you are not qualified, you cannot do the job. Many many times I have taken over the work of a Chartered Accountant and found the work to be below standard and a rip off for the clients!

I do not agree with any of these organisations as they all restrict in some way, but now feel that the tide in turning and soon we will not be able to work unless we do have a piece of paper, which is why I have now gone down the ICB route. Obviously, looking by my results with no study, I can do the job standing on my head!

Most people that study and do not have experience are clueless in the real world, that is why experience is soooo important.

Rant over :)

P

littlebookkeeper · Senior Member

I agee there, experience should matter much more than qualifications.

I left school at 16 and worked full time whiilst doing my AAT then ACCA and when I got in my 20s I was working with newly qualified 'Chartered' Accountants who had been full time students and got 'block release for 6 weeks on the trot to do their exams and they thought they were so much better than me because I was a mere 'ACCA'. They were coming to me with all their questions as I had bags more experience than them, yet they were getting paid more as they were supposedly the 'elite'.

It's all about covering ones behind and is happening in all jobs I think.

I was considering teaching but because I didn't have a 'degree' (despite my years of experience and professional qualifications) I was told I would have to do a 4 year degree course rather than a one year teaching course. So I gave up on that idea. That's my rant over now!!

Carole

-- Edited by littlebookkeeper on Thursday 12th of November 2009 10:57:36 AM

Marky65 · Guru

Hi

I couldn't agree more with Carol, Gerry & Phil

I have worked in accountancy (commerce & industry) for 25 years progressing from purchase ledger clerk to financial controller for a multi million pound anglo/american book publisher, all acheived with only my 'o' levels from school and hard work. I now have a part time job as an accounts manager and run my own bookkeeping/payroll/financial reporting business during the remainder of the week with a view to give up the part time job when my own business is giving a sufficient income.

I worked for a firm of chartered accountants for just 1 year and was amazed at the level of work that was provided (not good) and amounts charged to clients and this led to my decision of going by myself.

I am studying ICB and have completed level 1 & 2 comp and am now studying level 3 & payroll only because I want to show prospective clients that I have a qualification to go with the experience.

I can't believe that 25 years experience can be considered as not having bothered.

Ok, my rant over

Regards

Mark

-- Edited by Marky65 on Thursday 12th of November 2009 02:10:26 PM

semsley · Guru

Little Bookkeeper - you do not need a degree to teach in the post 16 sector and they do not normally teach book-keeping/accountancy in schools only in FE colleges.

What you need is the modern equivalent of what was the CertEd, then became PCET which it may still be but now you also have to gain QTLS within 2 years, I don't because my CertEd was gained over 15 years ago and us older qualified ones don't have to jump through that hoop.

However, I wouldn't recommend working in FE as over the years it has become an administrative nightmare with more concentration being put on paperwork than on quality of teaching - but don't get me going on that. I now only teach directly to companies and for an organisation which is not subject to ALI or OFSTED inspections so doesn't need all the paperwork. "Teaching to the test" has been replaced by "Teaching to the OFSTED / ALI inspection", neither or which are good.

Like Carol, Gerry & Phil I have more years than I care to remember experience of bookkeeping and accountancy from doing, teaching and examining but not for the various institutes and am now doing IAB L3 computerised to gain membership and get a cheaper way of MLR registration. However, I am appalled by the course which, to my mind, does not in any way prepare one for "going it alone".

littlebookkeeper · Senior Member

Hi Semsley,

It was actually for primary school teaching and it was in Scotland. It was Moray House in Edinburgh and I think they are a bit stricter with their rules because they can be as there are so many applicants. I have moved away from that idea anyway.

Whilst we rant on about the experience mattering more we should still give credit to those without the experience who are working hard for the qualifications while juggling other jobs/childcare so that they can try to get a better paying more flexible job, they deserve credit too.

Carole

semsley · Guru

littlebookkeeper wrote:

Hi Semsley,

It was actually for primary school teaching and it was in Scotland. It was Moray House in Edinburgh and I think they are a bit stricter with their rules because they can be as there are so many applicants. I have moved away from that idea anyway.

Whilst we rant on about the experience mattering more we should still give credit to those without the experience who are working hard for the qualifications while juggling other jobs/childcare so that they can try to get a better paying more flexible job, they deserve credit too.

Carole

Ah, primary then yes you do need a degree but could still do a 3 year BEd.

Re: experience and qualifications. I agree that credit should be given to those working hard for qualifications but I think, in some instances they can be being sold the courses for the benefit of the training provider with a rosy picture being painted of where it will lead them. I've seen all the adverts "learn book-keeping/sage and earn £15 - £25 per hour", it 'aint gonna happen.