ICM Membership etc - Is it Worth It? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

LizB · Veteran Member

ICM Membership etc - Is it Worth It?

semsley · Guru

Hi Liz, I don't know but I presume that you would not be supported if anything went wrong when you were doing manual accounts. I don't see how anyone can prevent you from doing them but hey I aren't a member of any "professional" book-keeping body.

From what I see of the ICB, it appears that their "exams" are taken at home rather than in a centre under exam conditions therefore, from a teacher/examiner (which I have been) point of view these exams are neither valid nor reliable as there is a huge potential for having help either from some other person or by using a book. There is also no way of having a time limit ie 2 hours.

I would actually like this post to spark a debate on the subject of home study qualifications and their advantages/disadvantages against studying at college or a training centre and the value or otherwise of the system.

stephen72 · Senior Member

Hi,
I do agreee with the points you have made with regard to the exams.I,like a lot of people did my courses via distance learning and my exams were done at home and not at a college or centre.
whilst i found the courses to be ok i have come across problems when doing work for a client which were not explained or covered in the courses so i have had to find the answers for myself. looking at things now i would say that the courses are ok but if i had time i think a course at a college would have been better as it may have covered more subjects in greater depth.
i have heard others say that what they have learnt on distance courses has not prepared them well for situations in the real world and they have had to continue to study themselves or brush up on what they need to using books and places like this forum but i am sure with time and experience people will improve as you learn by your mistakes and we are continually learning.

semsley · Guru

Stephen - Agree entirely that we learn by mistakes (it was something I always said to students, a mistake is a learning opportunity).

Must admit I've never done distance learning - well I suppose I did when several years ago I did an on-line course to qualify as an on-line tutor, but because it was on line there was a messageboard and live chat so it was not as isolated.

I do agree that book/written learning really does not prepare one for what may be faced in real life situations the theory against practice case. I also think that when doing a course in college or training centre you have the experience of the tutor on which to draw. I know when I was teaching I used "pretend" invoices, cr notes, cheques, cheque stubs to make the exercises more real before practising past papers. As people learn in different ways it is always useful to use different techniques and different ways of explaining things to ensure that everyone understands why they are doing things in the way they are - rather than just following instructions.

Wella · Expert

To answer LizB first.
It's a condition of membership that you do not do work that you haven't passed the appropriate level examination in, or had an exemption because of another qualification or experience. There is an section on their website, I believe you need evidence of competence from two accountants to get an exemption on experience grounds. In a nutshell, being a member will restrict you, if you want to carry out a complete service and remain a member. There may be an issue with PI insurance, if you used the ICB/ Trafalgar policy, as they also restrict their cover to only doing work to your qualification level.

To respond to Semsleys points. The level II and level III manual ICB exams are conventional invigilated exams lasting 3 hours each (I took mine at the University of Plymouth). They offer homed based exams under certain conditions (disability or remoteness of location) but the candidate has to pay for a home invigilator and all expenses. I am assuming they feel the computerised levels don't warrant that type of testing as they are assignment based, which for me, at least, took more than 3 hours and required some researching, as the scenarios, required a degree of problem solving beyond the scope of the course work (initiative required).
When I left school I did a five year endentured apprenticeship (my soul was sold to the employer) and even after gaining the highest qualifications in that field, I was still learning. Two years ago I went on to teach the subject, under a modern apprenticeship scheme (a government initiative) and to be honest, I was teaching the learners to pass the exams not the subject. The result being, although they qualified, I wouldn't have let any one of them oil my bicycle chain (It was motor vehicle technology, by the way)

I have treated my qualifications as the foundations of what I know about bookkeeping and the underpinning knowledge I have learnt, will help me make mistakes with confidence!!! If you know what I mean.

Enough diatribe

Bill

semsley · Guru

Two years ago I went on to teach the subject, under a modern apprenticeship scheme (a government initiative) and to be honest, I was teaching the learners to pass the exams not the subject. The result being, although they qualified, I wouldn't have let any one of them oil my bicycle chain (It was motor vehicle technology, by the way)

That's one of the reasons I left teaching it's no longer about "educating" but about passing exams and/or assessments. It's all about box ticking and meeting the funding requirements. Teach to the test only crept in when league table position and funding outcomes (ie passes) were required to be met.

It is interesting to see that the higher level manual exams are more rigourous than the computerised when the same level of membership can be gained by either.

Wella · Expert

It was the reason I left too. Not just because I felt I wasn't teaching the subject but I felt it unfair to the Learners (as we had to call them). There are issues with basic literacy and numeracy that you just can't get away from in the real world but to overcome this any candidate that was assessed with theses short comings was given a reader (someone to read the question to them and write the answer for them - a real eye opener). I couldn't reconcile this situation. There is no way that this helps them or an employer in the future, at least not in that particular industry (no one is going to read the instructions in a repair manual or worksheet to them in the real world). Bearing in mind I was was "teaching" students that had left school - still, they were in training therefore not an unemployed statistic.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally for helping people achieve but in that situation I felt that at best, it would lead to dissapointment and at worst, a fatality!

With regard to the ICB membership structure. If you only take the computerised route, you have to show that. After your qualification letters AICB or MICB you have to follow that with "(Comp)" and also add the word "Computerised" above your practice licence number on any documentation.

I am not sure what distance learning courses teach if you only go down the computerised route but the assignments require a knowledge of a manual system. For example my level III require the production of a manufacturing and profit & loss account. In Sage there is no chart of accounts that produces one. I had to use what I had learned for my manual qualification and combine it with my knowledge of Sage CoA structure and customise it to show the necessary info in the right places on the report.
If I hadn't done the manual first I would have struggled.

Although, I think the computerised assignments for level II are more aligned to knowing your softwares functions and your ability to enter data. In the real world we come across all sorts of software packages and I suppose they feel that if you learn on one and take an exam in a centre that uses a different one, you would need time to learn the package first.

Bill

semsley · Guru

Bill, know just where you're coming from (but don't MAs incorporate key skills !!! - tongue firmly in cheek smiley). There are many I've taught who I would never ever employ nor recommend. I once taught GCSE business & information systems and, believe it or not, spelling and grammar were not examined.

I haven't come across manufacturing accounts since I did my GCE O Level principles of accounts way back in 1966!!!!! If I ever had to do them I'd have to look back at my old notes (yes I'm a hoarder and I even know where to find them how sad's that). My loft is full of teaching materials - just in case. Sage does have all the required stuff in the COA though so it's just a matter of customising it - however, this is not taught even at level 3, and, as you rightly say it is assumed in most book-keeping exams with which I am familiar that Sage is the software, and some would struggle to transfer their computerised knowledge to other packages without the manual background.

Brewsie · Veteran Member

ICB are in the process of revising their membership structure so that you will have to demonstrate knowledge of BOTH manual and computerised to get AICB (or MICB).

Those who currently have only done one exam (either manual or computerised) at level II or III will have to do the other to maintain their membership at the current level.

e.g if you are currently AICB (Comp). then you will have to take the manual exam.

The new qualifications will be simply AICB or MICB - the (Comp) versions will disappear.

Wella · Expert

Hi Brewsie

That's an interesting development (Did this come out at the conference?) I notice they are also introducing a level IV tax qualification next year (wonder where those that have the level III self assessment qualification stand?). Does this also mean we won't have the additional CB Dip, if both parts are mandatory?

Sorry LizB, digressed from your original post but these changes may affect your decision on the direction you want to take. I am pretty sure I have seen somewhere on the ICB website a fast track route for experienced bookkeepers but just had a look and can't find it at the moment (it may have been an article in the InVoice magazine). It may be worth a phone call.

Semsley - Hoarders rule (well, the attic anyway)

Bill

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

oh well, I havent done the manual exams and was not going to as I only deal in computerised packages but if thats going to be their stance, then I wont bother renewing or joining to full membership, as I've only got student membership at present, waiting til I pass the exams I want.

or I'll have to be pally pally with my accountant friends who can vouch for me to get me round it that way!

I was going to do the Level III self assesment exam too after the payroll but now I'm not so sure. It is interesting as they also have a Level III for small business currently, so it will be nice to see how the Level IV route is going to be administered!

I am not impressed!

P

Brewsie · Veteran Member

Bill

yes it was announced at the conference.

The level IV tax was described as being CPD, not leading to an extra qualification. 3 topics to be covered: Personal & Business tax; management accounts, budgets etc; drafting financial statements.

Mike · Veteran Member

I believe that it's also their intention to move to computer based online assessments from next year (presumably, a series of multiple choice questions - I don't know).

Also, I think it makes more sense to simplify the membership structure so that you just have three grades: AICB, MICB & FICB.

Regarding the changes to their membership structure, I believe prospective members will be required to demonstrate that they have a minimum of 1 year's full time practical work experience in a bookkeeping environment in addition to having completed the relevant ICB qualifications. Those with just the qualifications but who lack the relevant experience will only be entitled to affiliate membership. Does this mean that some existing associates and full members (who do not have a year's practical work experience) will have to revert to affiliate status and will not be having their practising licenses renewed?.

Whatever the implications, the ICB should clarify the new membership structure and what it means for existing and prospective members as soon as possible.

-- Edited by Mike on Friday 4th of December 2009 04:32:36 PM

Ann-marie · Senior Member

Hi there,

Just a quick question, how do you gain the FICB grade?

I'm in the process of taking level II computerised at the moment but will need to bear in mind that I will need to do the manual exam too. They should be fine - it's just finding the time to fit everything!!

Mike · Veteran Member

Ann-marie wrote:

Hi there,

Just a quick question, how do you gain the FICB grade?

You can only gain full membership (MICB) via the examination route.

FICB status is really just an honour that is bestowed upon certain members by the Institute each year, I would imagine depending on various factors such as experience, length of membership, their standing within the business community, any other qualifications they may possess etc.

I believe that the ICB write out to a number of members each year offering them the chance to upgrade to the fellowship grade