From the ICB website members area - Thought you ought to know. - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

From the ICB website members area - Thought you ought to know.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

so they are saying that my membership, which takes me to June 2011 will no longer be valid, unless I take the exams.

I know many people on here that only have the comp exams, as these days everything is computerised and you need to understand the manual stuff in order to run the comp packages properly. I do not have the time to go to an exam centre and spend 3 hours doing an exam.

Perhaps a petition is called for??

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Yep, I did the comp exams because you can distance sit them as well.

My membership is due for renewal this month but after reading that I'm having second thoughts.

I've just written a letter to them. I'll keep you informed as to what happens.

... Wonder how difficult it is to set up your own bookkeeping institute?

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

I also have the payroll and self assessment exams......

how do they fit in if you do not have the other exams??? makes you wonder....they allow you to continue your development, knowing that it all means nothing unless......

yes, perhaps a letter is now needed......food for thought.

P

Terri · Senior Member

I think that this is aimed at complete beginners like me. When I started studying I had no previous knowledge at all and I did the manual exam first and then the computerised. Had I completed the computerised course first, I would have been able to use Sage Instant but not had any real understanding of what I was doing or why. It is a pain for experience bookkeepers who will have to pay for the exam and travel there but it will stop a lot of inexperienced bookkeepers working with no real awareness of why they are doing what they are doing. The computerised course that I completed didn't even really cover debits and credits properly which is a fundamental part of bookkeeping as you know. That is just my opinion.

Terri

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Terri,

hope that the new year (and especially self assessment season) is treating you well.

I can see their point. I just disagree with them doing it retrospectively. I was in a foul mood yesterday anyway and when I read their latest moving of the goal posts it just made things worse.

The foul mood was brought on by Microsoft. I had sent a report to someone and they couldn't read it. Turns out that they were using Office 2007 and my report was written using office 2000. Why do I use office 2000 you ask? Well, I work a lot in the banking sector and the banks for the most part didn't buy into the latest version of office due to it's lack of backwards comparability.

Had to pop out, cough up £70 for Office 2007 just so that I could send a report that I'm being paid £60 for (They had better pay now or I'm popping around to hold them out of the window by their ankles).

Due to various Macro's I'm supporting my machine now has Excel 4, Excel 97, Excel 2000 and as of yesterday Excel 2007 on it.... When you work from home nobody can hear you scream!

Have a good one Terri and hope to talk soon,

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Shamus

We use 2007 and the sales guys use 2000 and we have no problems opening old docs!! Seems odd to me that thye couldnt open your report, seeing as they have the new software not the other way round.....

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers P,

tried everything to get it to work but to no avail. Unfortunately they were too far away to pop around to look at their machine (I'm in Staffordshire, they're in Edinburgh) and the only feedback that I kept getting when sending versions over was "nope, still won't open".

I suspect that this could just be a case that their system is attempting to open .DOC files using the wrong program but the last thing that I'm going to do is talk someone 300 miles away through editing the Windows registry! That scenario's got blue screen of death written all over it.

My document was in word with embedded word tables, Visio diagrams and some fancy formatting to pretty it up a bit. Tried changing various bits and even broke it down into small segments but just kept getting the same response so figured installing the newer version of Office was probably the best option... At least I can put the expense off against the company so £70 isn't really £70.

thanks anyway and I agree totally with you, especially as when I installed Office 2007 I had no difficulty opening my Word 2000 report in Word 2007 in order to covert it! (I had been expecting to spend a long time cutting and pasting section by section between the two versions of word but the whole thing was actually done and dusted in less than a minute).

Talk soon,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch · Guru

I have to say that after doing my ICB level 1 and 2 computerised I did not renew my membership. I thought they were being far to prescriptive about the role I carried out. But I did not feel it was based on my competence, only on the amount of money I paid them.

I was never impressed with the support or communications from the ICB.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

The thing that gets my goat the most about them is that you get charged for absolutely everything.

AAT / CAT / ACCA all make past exam papers and suggested answers freely available but the ICB charge you.

Something that seems to me wrong for members of the institute. The reason that I joined the ICB was that I'm actually at the later stages of ACCA and really felt that in burying myself in the heavy stuff I could be losing the basics.I could tell you how to account for an associate company in group accounts but had forgotten (or thought that I had forgotten) how to record basic transactions.

I did the exams to prove to myself that I still had it.

The announcement from the ICB has made me stop and re-evaluate my position. On occasion the ACCA change things but they do it in a fair and open manner with a long time frame. I really couldn't imagine a situation where they would tell all of their members that their hard earned status could become null and void.

I am awaiting a reply from the ICB to a polite but quite strongly worded letter that I sent yesterday which will determine what my next move is to be.

Talk later,

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Shaun

I'm not in total agreement with the ACCA changes being a long time frame nor fair, although things may have changed somewhat over the years. I started ACCA back in 1990, and having taken the first 3 exams, they changed the syllabus, so in effect I lost out on a third of my work plus more exams to take - I hardly found this fair having spent over a year studying and spending loads of money on the exams etc etc. I then chose to give up as I really didn't need the quals at that time.

Now I've decided to give it another go, this time the ICB route, only for MLR/Insurance purposes and low and behold, the same thing is happening, albeit in a different manner.

Is that just coincidence or perhaps they all make a habit at some point of moving the goalposts!

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi P,

So, it's all your fault then!!!

It gets worse, under the new fee structure Payroll Agent is now a new classification for an additional £60 per year!!!

Give the ACCA their due, I think that they've learned from previous mistakes. The ACCA changed the syllabus again in 2007 but gave credit for any equivalent exams under the old syllabus.

The changes were announced as early as 2005 and for those whose practical experience requirement was effected there were arrangements post changeover to transfer experience from the old student training record to the new PER format.

On this one I fell into the category of already having the experience fully signed off so I was able to bank it until I've passed all of the exams.

On the ICB website they're justifying increasing fee's and introducing new fee's (such as the Payroll agent mentioned above). To do this they compare their fee's related to fully qualified practicing members to the fee's charged by the ACCA! Hardly a good comparison considering the restrictions that are placed on what members are allowed to do compared to fully qualified practicing members of the ACCA.

Think maybe that we should compare our fee's to clients against those that they would be charged by PWC or KPMG????

After reading the fee's page I know that I won't now receive a response until after January the 10th as that's the date that they put the Fee's up and introduce the new one's!

As soon as morethan have been back in touch to approve (or not) my insurability for bookkeeping as a PQ ACCA I think that I'm pulling the plug on the ICB.

Have a good one,

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Shaun

Yep, it was me!!

I really don't know what to think, to be honest. Now its made me think again, AKA 1991, do I really need these quals? The answer is prob no, so need to think hard about all this once again.....just as I thought I had decided.....

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi all,
I've now got a long and well written answer from the ICB which they've banned me from distributing.
However, as suspected it clearly states that membership at Associate or Member level will now require completion of both manual and computerised examination with no exclusions. We will have one year from notification of the changes in which to pass the other exam.
It doesn't say anything about our current status so I assume that we would retain that until expiry of the one year grace period.
The crux of the manual bit seems to be that they want to ensure that it is the right person whose sitting the exam. Makes total sense of course but they seem to have lost site of the fact that whilst they are the worlds largest bookkeeping organistaion they've attained that on the basis of flexibility around people with other commitments such as a young families.
The question now is, as the ICB is now removing this differentiation and no matter which body you go for you will have to sit timed exams at a centre would you still have chosen ICB as your first choice of supervisory body?

Talk soon,

Shaun.

Mike · Veteran Member

To be honest with you I think it's entirely proper for the ICB, as part of their ongoing membership requirements, to expect members who've gone exlusively down the computerised route to sit the manual exams in a controlled environment.

It is the only way employers and clients can have confidence in the exams and membership grades being awarded.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Which I totally agree with.

But the question is, would you have chosen ICB over the likes of AAT or CAT or even ACCA had that been the situation when you joined?

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Shaun

I know that you can't go into too much detail given in the ICB reply but are you able to say whether the proof of manual competence can only be achieved by exam or whether CPD and proof of previous achievement would be sufficient.

And in answer to your recent question I am not sure I would have chosen ICB, I would certainly have looked at other organisations.

Regards

Mark

Brewsie · Veteran Member

Shamus

From the top of the thread

Members who are currently AICB (Comp) or MICB (Comp) will have twelve months during which to prove competence in the manual bookkeeping element of the Institutes syllabus, whilst existing AICBs and MICBs will also have to prove competence with a bookkeeping software package. For most, this will be accomplished through continuing professional development (CPD).

I understood the CPD comment to mean that formal, timed exams would not be required for those needing to prove competance in the 'other' discipline.

Does your letter seem to to contradict this? If so, may be worth quereying back to ICB.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Mark, Brewsie,

the letter categorically stated that we have to sit the exams and that no exclusions are available to existing members. Maybe they're classing the additional exams as CPD? If you think about it, they actually are!

Also, one of the thing's that it states later in the letter is that they are no longer able to bring into membership any individuals who have not attended a timed examination in person.

The letter doesn't state whether the attendance of an examination has to be with them. So maybe if you've passed equivalent exams with another body that would count.

As you suggest Mark it may be that there will be an alternate CPD route but for me I'm going to open a bottle of wine this evening and by the end of it I'll have decided what I'm going to do next.

Ok, I've pretty much already decided but it's a good excuse to open a bottle on a Friday night isn't it!

Couple of things about the ICB really got my goat (yes, even more than normal... I really am turning into a grumpy old man aren't I).

One of the lines towards the end of the note was somewhat disparaging of other institutions which they now seem to feel themselves above.

The other was on their website comparing their updated fee structure for 2010 with that of the ACCA! I wouldn't dream of comparing my fee's with those of KPMG, they seem to be doing about the equivalent!

talk soon,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Good news people!

The ICB have just been in touch. There was a board meeting of the ICB yesterday about this and it looks as though people with AICB (comp) and a practicing certificate (rather a lot of us I would imagine) will be able to do a home based computerised exam to get AICB.

This is not finalised as it depends on sorting out the IT side of things but the important part is that our views are being listened to.

On the back of todays correspondence from them I've now renewed my membership.

Have a good one,

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Shaun

Now I'm confused! We are talking about the manual exam are we not? I do not have a practicing cert as yet (perhaps I should get one now for the hell of it!!) but am an MICB(comp).......

So are you saying you take a computer based exam for the manual?

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Phillip,

For current AICB (comp) members who hold a practicing certificate the manual exam is going to be available via a home based computerised examination.

I presume that it's computerised to make sure that it's timed.

I suspect that it's only for the practicing members as we'll be the test population to see whether the technology works.

This of course means that nobody should be disadvantaged to the point of losing their right to hold a practicing certificate (and hence get the reduced rate PII and be able to use the institutes crest on stationary) as a result of the current changes that are being enacted.

Similarly for MICB (comp) taking the level 2 manual from your home computer will mean that you won't lose your practicing status. I think that the ICB assumption is that if your practicing then you have a practicing certificate. And only practicing members would have been disadvantaged to the point of loss of income by the change of rules.

There is no mention of the level 3 manual having a home based computerised equivalent. Maybe that's where they were going with the comment about being able to retain status via CPD?

Unfortunately non of us know all of the facts at the moment but it does look as though they are trying their hardest to ensure that current practicing members are not disadvantaged.

It's a bit quiet on the postings today isn't it?

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

I have just written to ICB myself, as its only with member involvment that things like this can be taken a step further.

I dont have a problem with the new system, if I was not a member but I am. And I will not be able to take a manula exam at a centre until Oct, as Feb is missed and June I will be on hols!

Still undecided on the whole affair. I'll await the response to my letter and see.

Quiet? It always amazes me that its only the few that seem to make comment on here, whilst all the others just watch and learn....would be nice for others to come say hi once in awhile

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I do get the impression that it might have been my letter that prompted yesterdays meeting.

You mention exam dates. That's something else that they're changing.

Apparently they're losing the Feb / June / Oct sittings and having sittings that can be taken as and when we need.

The exams at the centre's are going to be done over a computer and if we fail we can just take them again around our availability.

Agreed about needing more involvement by the people who use this site. I for one would always go out of my way more to find answers to queries posted by someone who had said hi or offered some advice themselves in the past.

My advice isn't always 100% but it's only by opening views up to general discussion that one gets stronger and more knowledgeable. Some of the questions posted on here have been very basic but nobody here belittles any question (try that on some of the accountancy forums... At times it feels like being thrown to the lions!).

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

For me, its nice to have a 2nd opinion, just to make sure I'm doing it right, esp on something I have not done in a while or something new to me.

Everyone is learning, all through their careers, no matter what, so any question is a valid one, no matter how stupid it may seem, I agree totally with you on that one.

P

juniebug65 · Member

hi
i ve just joined this forum ...received my level 3 diploma computerised paper yesterday..an of course my course only covered up to level 2...i ve passed all my exams so far an im booked in to sit level 2 manual in feb....is there anywhere i can get some info on level 3 diploma online...id appreciate any help

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Hiya

You can get the syllabus from the ICB website and just work through the sections they require. A good way is to do the past papers, although these do cost £5 but I think they are worth doing.

Not sure on your experience, so, hard to say how much of a learning curve it would be.

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi,

the full syllabus is available on the ICB website.

you have to pay for the ICB practice exams but CAT exams with suggested answers are freely available from the ACCA website (AAT used to be freely available but now you have to sign up to get access).

Although the other boards ask more or less the same querstions I would suggest that you buy at least one practice paper from the ICB for the paper that your about to sit to get a feel for their exam before you sit it.

On the books front for level 3 it's very much a matter of finding one that your comfortable with. Go and sit in a good waterstones for an hour or two and see what works for you. Try the BPP AAT revision companions. Personally I like Kaplan ACCA study texts but you might find them a bit heavy going.

Good luck and talk soon,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Beat me again Philip,

Maybe I should give up studying accountancy and go and do a speed typing course!

Think that we basically said the same things anyway though.

juniebug65 · Member

Hi Shamus and Philip
thanks for your advice....i actually received the diploma computerised paper yesterday and have 2 weeks to do it ...i think maybe i should have bought a past exam paper from ICB but was so keen to do this exam.....im sitting level 2 manual exam on feb 10 at a centre... i ve passed level 1 an level 2 computerised an passed sage exams so far
looking at the level 3 paper...is pretty tough considering my course only covered up to level 2
thanks for replying
June

PJC Bookkeeping · Veteran Member

June,

If you're quick you may be able to receive a Mock Level 3 Computered Bookkeeping exam in the next few days. The turnround from ICB is normally pretty good.

Good luck with the exams!

Peter

PJC Bookkeeping Services
www.pjcbookkeeping.co.uk

juniebug65 · Member

Hi Peter
thanks for your reply.....i ll give that ago an find out......i guess this is what happens when i get too keen....but im determined im gonna pass this
its nice to message others who have either done the exams or doing them too
be back soon

semsley · Guru

I think you need to do past papers for any exam in order to get a feel for what is required and thereby feel more confident when doing the actual exam. (view from an ex examiner)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Shamus wrote:

Good news people!

The ICB have just been in touch. There was a board meeting of the ICB yesterday about this and it looks as though people with AICB (comp) and a practicing certificate (rather a lot of us I would imagine) will be able to do a home based computerised exam to get AICB.

This is not finalised as it depends on sorting out the IT side of things but the important part is that our views are being listened to.

On the back of todays correspondence from them I've now renewed my membership.

Have a good one,

Shaun.

The post seems to have gone in a whole new direction away from the problem issue that people who hold AICB (comp) were faced with losing their practicing licence unless they passed the manual exam within the year.

I posted the good news this morning that the ICB have had a meeting and AICB comps who hold a practicing certificate should now be able to sit the manual level 2 exam from their home computer.

This must also means that MICB comp practicioners will also be able to retain their practice licence by just passing level 2 manual in the same fashion.

Anyway, reposted Just in case you missed it amongst all of the other postings.

Shaun.

juniebug65 · Member

yes i agree that would help, but in this case, i do feel reasonably confident on doing the diploma exam
a lot of the work is common sense anyway , careful reading through an research which im doing online an on the ICB website

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Shaun

Many thanks for the good news based on this I will now press ahead with my membership for AICB (Comp) and Payroll and obtain my practising licence or certificate whatever it is they will be calling it.

It is especially good that they will be dropping the centre based exams as I am in exactly the same position as Philip and would not want to have only one option of sitting an October exam eventhough I know I should pass you never know what might happen

Regards

Mark

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi mark,

just so that there's no confusion here.

Taking the manual exam at home will in the short term only be for existing AICB (comp) people with practicing certificates.

Its a move so that we and our clients do not become disadvantaged by the change of rules.

The centre based exams will still exist as one big flaw in the current ICB system is that they have no evidence as to who is actually sitting the exam when we do it from home.

The real step forwards is that the ICB are changing the exam dates to a more driving theory type format so we are not restricted to the feb / june / oct dates.

At the moment though for the manual exam where no practicing certificate is held on the back of AICB (comp) we're still going to have to sit the exam at a centre. Just in a different format and without the date restrictions.

Nothing at the moment is written in stone but the ICB are listening to us and in trying to move forwards it does now seem that they are trying not to alienate the existing membership.

cheers,

Shaun.

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Shaun

Thanks for the claryfication,

I will still go ahead and see where it ends up

Regards

Mark

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

if they do indeed remove the limitations to the centre based timings, then that will be a good thing. I once took IT MCSE exams and that was pc based at a centre where you just booked and turned up, you even got the results there and then!!

I wonder whether in future there will only be one exam like the payroll, which has moved from manual and comp to more comp with s few manula questions?

P

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Philip

You would have thought that they would have to move it that way eventually because with accounts software being so cheap (not necessarily good) and readily available there must come a time when manual accounting dies out, but it must form part of a syllabus as it is the basics of accounting

Regards

Mark

Brewsie · Veteran Member

The ICB's intention is to move to computer based exams - it was discussed at the Nov conference.

You will be able to book a slot at the exam centre to suit, turn up and take the exam. As Backoffice suggests, you will get the results as you walk out. No need to wait for the current set exam dates.

The company that will run the exams are the same lot that do driver theory tests.

details here: http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/MyICB/Downloads/?dlid=1636&dln=04.%20MARC%20CARPENTER

ProBowlUK · Senior Member

Hi

Haven't even started my Level I course yet, and wondering what kind of group the ICB is.

What exactly is the difference between Level III in ICB and AAT ? confuse

Both organisations seem to be based around the training courses for their Certifications.
I decided on ICB because it's "catalogue" looked straightforward, AAT's seems quite large and complicated.

cheers

-- Edited by ProBowlUK on Thursday 14th of January 2010 11:47:15 PM

juniebug65 · Member

hi
i received level 3 computerised past mock exam to get an idea of the exam im doing at the moment....i have to say, i looked at it, it came with a data disc, and i found the whole paper confusing....it seems my exam paper that i am doing (level 3 computerised ) is easier???
didnt really help me in any way
so i guess im literally gonna have to get thru it......i ve got til friday to send the paper back to the icb ....has anyone been in the same predicament as me?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bob,

think that we're in a bit a transition period at the moment where the ICB is reinventing itself as a more up market body.

Generally the jobs ad's ask for AAT or CAT. I've yet to see one that mentions ICB.

There's a lot more to the AAT qualification than the ICB one which is why it's generally better regarded.

That's not meant as an insult to anyone whose passed MICB. A lot of self employed bookkeepers are either ICB or IAB and at level 3 you really have to know your bookkeeping to get through.

I think those who take the AAT route are more likely to go on to study ACCA / CIMA / ACA not least because AAT gives excemptions from lower level exams that ICB doesn't (as yet).

It will be interesting to see where the ICB go with the mission that they seem to be on to revolutionise the way that bookkeeping is perceived as compared to accountancy.

You might just have joined up at a very interesting crossroads for the profession.

Shaun.

Julies bookkeeping · Veteran Member

Shamus wrote:

Hi mark,

just so that there's no confusion here.

Taking the manual exam at home will in the short term only be for existing AICB (comp) people with practicing certificates.

Its a move so that we and our clients do not become disadvantaged by the change of rules.

The centre based exams will still exist as one big flaw in the current ICB system is that they have no evidence as to who is actually sitting the exam when we do it from home.

The real step forwards is that the ICB are changing the exam dates to a more driving theory type format so we are not restricted to the feb / june / oct dates.

At the moment though for the manual exam where no practicing certificate is held on the back of AICB (comp) we're still going to have to sit the exam at a centre. Just in a different format and without the date restrictions.

Nothing at the moment is written in stone but the ICB are listening to us and in trying to move forwards it does now seem that they are trying not to alienate the existing membership.

cheers,

Shaun.

Is this still the case as I spoke to a young girl about this and she said I would have to attend a centre which could be anywhere within 30 miles from home.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Julie,

who knows what the heck the ICB are up to now. They're changing the rules as they go along and expecting everyone to merrily skip along to their tune.

I've been told that my ACCA qualifications are not good enough for the ICB!!! and with that line from them I've had enough of their snide derision of better qualifications. I only joined them as a bookkeeping revision qualification anyway so I'm not going to miss them in leaving.

Have a good one Julie,

talk soon,

Shaun.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Shaun

For one that is in the process of waiting for ICB membership to come through, what if any impact will these rule changes have on me and my plans to work for myself in the future.

Also is it better to consider the other institutes rather than the ICB?

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

the rule changes relate to the change in when one is allowed to offer services by way of a practicing certificate.

Up until now one could take the Level I and level II comp to get to AICB (comp). Both could be done from home so fitted in around current schedules such as child care etc.

The ICB quite rightly argue that there is no evidence that the person taking the exams is the one being awarded the pass. Therefore, as part of the shakeup they now state that everyone must attend a formal timed exam.

The bulk of the above argument relates to the fact that many took this route rather than the alternatives as it fitted around their lives but now the goal post are being moved in line with higher profile organisations that had the rules been different in the first place are more likely to have been the organisations chosen as supervisory bodies.

The main example that comes to mind is AAT. Probably one of the most well respected of the qualifications that site between the worlds of bookkeeping and accoutancy. If you want a job working in accountancy this really is the qualification to have. Just take a look at Reed, Totaljobs, Jobsite etc. advert after advert asks for AAT qualified... I've yet to see a single advertisement that asks for ICB!

In your instance, working for yourself as a bookkeeper you will still only need to take the level I and both of the level II exams to get to a status where you are able to get a practicing certificate. However, if you have not yet parted with your cash for an ICB course I would think long and hard about whether ICB or AAT is he way to go.

I hope that I've answered your questions but if not just write and I'll have another bash.

talk soon,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Shaun

That was my point in my little rant about the ICB.

CAT are part of the ACCA, therefore they will get recognised and from the AAT website I lifted the following quote

CIPFA, ICAEW, CIMA and ICAS have continued to support the AAT

It stands to reason that these are the qualifications recognised by the accounting profession and are the ones asked for in advertising.

The ICB need to spend some of the membership/ practice license/ exam fees nuturing a better relationship with the accounting profession, if it intends to compete with AAT or CAT

Bill

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

Part of my course is to sit exams with the ICB, and obtain membeship with the ICB.

Are there compatible exams with AAT for Manual Level 1 and Computerised Level 2 that I can take that will give me what I want, or am I better sticking with the ICB for the time being?

Kind regards

Peter