I run an incorporated charity and currently outsource payroll and EOY accounts to our accountants (we are under the threshold for a full audit). I don't know if it's just becuase I don't 'know' it very well but Sage seems so convaluted after using Quicken.
I do our day to day book keeping on Sage v2009, which I bought on the advice of our accountants after our computer upgrade wouldn't support our Quicken 2002 software.
However, I really don't like doing the book keeping and find that it takes up quite a bit of my time, I suppose because I don't really undersand 'proper' accountancy/book keeping methods and just muddle along .
So to the point then - I am now looking to offload the book keeping and am looking for suggestions as to the best way to to it:
1. Outsource to our current accountants (have received an eye watering quote)
I would outsource to a local self employed bookkeeper, they will be definately cheaper than an accountant thats for sure. The only problem with training up a member of staff is what do you do when they leave (if they leave). Alot of self-employed bookkeepers work from home or are normally willing to say do 1 day a week at your place of work, I suppose it depends on your business which is best. You many find someone on here that can help you out locally. Definately worth a shot.
Youy could employ a part-time bookkeeper that would also work, although you would have to pay them for their hols where as a self-employed one dosen't get paid for their hols/ sick etc.
I think that on this site you are invariably going to get the reply that you should outsource to a self employed bookkeeper.
I'm sure that you're about to get a couple of dozen offers probably before I've sent this message!
Of your options though I think that the two that are worth considering are 2 & 3. You're still going to need your accountant regardless of how the bookkeeping gets done. But at least you won't be paying an accountant £35 per hour to basically do options 2 or 3 themselves!
The cost all comes down to how many transactions that you need processing. I've found that some accountants tend to look more at the bottom line and base their fee's on that than the actual work that needs doing!
Your in the same region of the world as me so I would offer to help you out myself but I've not used the latest version of Sage and that seems to be the crux of your current issue.
Hope that you find some sense in this short message before the vultures descend! Actually, there's some really good people on here. If you get any offers just take a look at what advice they have offered to others to get a feel for them.
good luck,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
As Shaun has said Option 2 and 3 are the way to go as both would be cheaper than outsourcing book-keeping to an accountant.
A part-time book-keeper would be around £8 per hour but remember you would have to pay pro-rata 5.6 weeks of holiday and sick pay etc.
A self-employed would be looking to earn £15/£20 an hour so it would depend on how many transactions and how quick the person was.
As you are a charity, do you have restricted funds and do you need to report on them? If so, you will need to use departments and you will need someone who understands this whether self-employed or part-time.
Shaun, I think if you've used Sage it's not difficult to work your way around a later or earlier version they're never materially different just added knobs and bells and, sometimes, fixes for problems people have found.
-- Edited by semsley on Monday 18th of January 2010 07:43:17 PM
Semsley - we do indeed have restricted and unrestricted funds and this is a rundown of what we do at the moment:
All of our income and expenditure is allocated by nominal codes to departments that are then broken down to cover things like net salaries, PAYE, resources etc.
Income is via a cash till (cash and cheque only) and direct bacs payments supported by a remittance advice for things like contract/grant payments.
We issue about 20 invoices each year.
We balance the till daily but reconcile and bank weekly and it is the weekly amount (by dept) that is entered onto Sage.
Payments are via cheques with a few Direct Debits for things like phone, tv licence etc. We put through between 30 and 50 cheques each month.
We have 4 bank accounts - 2 x cheques accounts - main current and a current that is for a specific externally funded project and 2 x savings accounts that we transfer funds between depending upon which has the best interest rate.
Obviously we also run a petty cash account.
Nothing is paid out without a receipt or invoice.
The monthly payroll (again by dept) is currently entered onto Sage as net (our accountants have shown me how to do it gross to net but I got confused )
I reconcile all of the bank statements every month.
I think that pretty much covers it.
Our accountants reckon that it would take them 7 hours per month to do all of the above and Shamus you were spot on with the price quoted (although they have offered to knock £500 off the EOY accounts and reduce the monthly cost if they can do it in less than 7 hours)
Yes, it looks like it would probably take about a day a month, you could probably cut down on time if you could pay some of your suppliers by internet banking as it's quicker than writing out cheques. I take it you're not VAT registered.
You need to also look at what you would save in terms of what extra it would enable you to do if you outsourced the book-keeping or took on a person for a day a month.
I work for an accountant part-time doing manual EOY's, trial balances etc. What version of Sage do you use as I'm also self-employed doing computerised bookkeeping & sage payroll as well. This is a great forum and any confusion with anything, just ask. I've found that a bookkeeper will save about £500-600/year on your accountant's bill (based on my experience and the work I do for local businesses).
It sounds like you do not need too much work to be done but I understand your confusion with Sage, Accountants will always recommend sage but there are other packages that are more user friendly to the non accounting mind. Quickbooks for instance. You may find that you yourself could cope with an easier system especially if you are used to Quicken.
If you are not in a position to change to a new system and need to get someone in then a part timer could work but you are obligated for holidays, contracts etc although this could be cheaper than a self employed bookkeeper depending on what they charge. I am not sure what area you are in but some bookkeepers are around £10-£12.00 per hour and if you could find one for this price then that would probably be the most cost effective for you.
Why don't you pop an advert in the local post office and see what comes through, you may not get an employed bookkeeper for a few hours each week as it may not be enough work for them but will probably find a self employed one.
Would give the accountants a wide berth on this one, they are far too expensive. But don't forget that they may be able to do a quicker job than someone that you may have to train up so take the extra hours into account.
hope you get something sorted soon
Gerry
-- Edited by gerry on Tuesday 19th of January 2010 10:34:05 AM
I would also add that if you are getting a self-employed bookkeeper you should mention this to your accountant. Many accountants quote based on the state of the records that come to them at year end. If you use a bookkeeper, this should mean that the records will be perfect, which in turn reduces the amount of work that the accountant has to do at year end.
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