What a find! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Neil · Senior Member

What a find!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Neil,

nice to have another member and welcome to the forum. Hope that we get to chat load over the coming months.

Feel free to add your two penneth to any thread even if it's just requiring clarification of some point. Being accountancy types on here we love our three/four letter acronyms and forget at times that some of the readers aren't completely abreast of the terminology. That must be something your used to coming from the background that you have! Anyway, if we say anything that doesn't make sense just ask and we'll expand on it.

Who are you using as a training provider? Have they proven good, bad, indifferent?

I think that if we had more postings on here about how good or bad their training had been some of the training company vultures out there might get there act together and start offering a better service at a more reasonable rate.

So far we seem to have a thumbs up for premier training and thumbs down for the home learning college.

Talk later,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

Thanks Shaun

As you say, jargon is everywhere. One thing that an academic background has allowed me to do, though, is feel at ease with my ignorance.

Regarding training providers, I am studying through Home Learning College. I wish Id known to look at the ICB website before I chose. Im paying £1700 to study Levels I, II and III manual. Ive found out since that Ideal Schools could have offered me that plus the computerised Level II and III courses and Payroll for £1100, including software! Im feeling a bit sick and very ripped off. HLC have done their work dominating Google and I couldnt find alternative providers using search engines.

I wouldnt mind as much if HLC offered added value but their materials are poorly presented and contain errors such as testing points that havent been taught. The downloadable mock exams must have been written by someone who is a stranger to the Microsoft products they used. Ive studied and tutored with the Open University and I know what constitutes good quality and value in a course.

The HLC online tutorial support is very good and might be worth the cost for someone who is challenged by the material but Ive barely used it. I even had a week of stress when it materialised that HLC hadnt forwarded my exam application to the ICB which caused me to miss the deadline. I had to beg and threaten to get it resolved and I am very grateful to the diligent lady who bent over backwards to correct her colleagues failings.

In summary, although I cant compare it to other providers, it's another thumbs down for Home Learning College.

Neil

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Neil

What is the standard of courses available from Ideal Schools?

I too ended up with HLC and wish I had done more homework before paying for my course.

Kind regards

Peter

Neil · Senior Member

Hi Peter

I really have no idea about Ideal Schools' standards, only their prices.

If they're recommended by the ICB I doubt their standard is any worse than HLC. I'm correcting the errors in the HLC Level III material as I go. Inappropriate and misplaced apostrophes are not as important as the numerical and table errors but they don't inspire me with confidence that anyone has proofread the material.

Neil

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Neil, Peter,

you even get errors in the BPP and Kaplan text books on occassion which can be a bit frustrating on the more complex stuff when it's difficult working out where they got the figures from anyway (Group accounts can be a nightmare of biblical proportions).

The fact that you're finding faults rather than believing everything that you read is really good. Whilst I'm sure that the errors that you have found to date are legitimate, just be careful though as in accountancy 2+2 doesn't always equal 4 and sometimes the answer that looks incorrect isn't.

Too late in your cases but for anyone else reading this thread, tread carefully when buying courses at the moment as even seemingly sound training companies have been going belly up during this recession. For example, in the last few months we've lost Advent, Holborn School of financial management, LVMT and Central colleges.

People on the courses have lost everything that they had already paid unless they paid the full amount (not just deposit) by credit card in which case they're insured.

Talk later,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:

in accountancy 2+2 doesn't always equal 4 and sometimes the answer that looks incorrect isn't.

Point taken but, that being the case, a teaching text ought to be able to get me to understand why.

In my experience there are things I can't understand because I don't have the mental horsepower and others that just can't be understood because they're wrong. In my field it's often impossible to distinguish the two but I hope accountancy and bookkeeping are a little less hypothetical.

Cheers

Neil

peter1162 · Veteran Member

I have written a lot of courses some at very short notice and know the amount of effort it takes to get the course correct. Have also had the fun of finding my errors when giving the course.

For these sort of prices there is no excuse for material that is not to a high standard.

Neil you should try and sell the updates to the HLC, and get a good refund.

Given that there are that number of errors does this mean that these courses are not used a lot and hence the number of errors, plus it must be worth while asking some questions to our tutor to see if they fully understand the material.

Kind regards

Peter

Neil · Senior Member

peter1162 wrote:

Neil you should try and sell the updates to the HLC, and get a good refund.
Given that there are that number of errors does this mean that these courses are not used a lot and hence the number of errors...

That's actually a very good idea. I might ask for a partial refund based on having to correct the errors myself. Do you think they would view it as a Sales Return or an Expense?

I think you're right about the low use of the course. It's definitely more error-strewn than the Level II course and the online forum is very quiet.

Cheers

Neil

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Neil,

they are.

The good books (basically anything by publishers BPP / Kaplan / Osbourne / Cima Press (Elsevier) / Prentice Hall / Thomson) do explain things well but you'll often find that you need several books to answer one question.

Kaplan has an excellent example driven style but might miss some details that are in the BPP equivalent books. You really need to sit down with both in somewhere like Foyles to decide which one is right for your learning style.

For the level that you're doing at the moment, if your finding the material lacking detail or indeed misleading, you might also be interested in acquiring the AAT texts for units 1 to 5. (BPP do 1-4 as a single book and 5 separate. There are both study texts and revision workbooks).

Unit 1 : Income & Receipts
Unit 2 : Payments
Unit 3 : Ledger balances and Initial Trial Balance
Unit 4 : Information for Management Control
Unit 5 : Maintaining Financial Records & Preparing Accounts

There's also Mastering Accounting Skills by Margaret Nicholson and Mastering Book-keeping by Peter Marshall which are excellent starter books plus of course there's the two Kaplan ICB approved Bookkeeping texts (Beginner-Intermediate and Advanced).

Have fun and talk later,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think hell might freeze over before you get a refund from a training company!

If, by some miracle of the climate change hell does in fact freeze over refunds are a reduction in turnover, not an expense.

cheers,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

Many thanks, Shaun.

My question on the refund was really a facetious one. I thought they might like to protect their turnover figure by subcontracting me as a proof reader [tongue-in-cheek smiley].

Thanks for the advice on AAT books. I bought the Osborne Units 1-4 before I signed up for this course and haven't looked at it since. I will now. The Unit 5 looks pretty affordable on Amazon too.

Having this conversation has really made me aware that I'm trusting the material less and less because of the obvious errors. Like Peter, I've done my share of writing and found mistakes after numerous checks. However, you can get a pretty good feel for the number of times a piece has been proofed because the glaring errors tend to be eradicated quite early in the process.

Cheers

Neil

-- Edited by Neil on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 12:01:00 PM

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Shaun

I obviously want to sit the part 3 manual exams, and having just found on Ideal Schools the course for parts 1, 2 and 3 and computerised for £760 feel somewhat cheated by HLC. But did get a discount from HLC of £300, so little bit of good news.

What is the best material to purchase to understand the part 3 manual sylabus.

Also can you sit the Computerised Part 2 exam that is held weekly before the Manual 1 and 2 exams that are held three times a year, before I ask the ICB. I will no doubt get very confused by their reply.

I have been in touch with the HLC on the membership of the ICB and as yet have not received a reply.

Kind regards

Peter

Neil · Senior Member

Peter

Only the ICB Level II and III exams are held at intervals. The Level I exam is sent to you to do at home and you can apply any time. Applications are collected on Fridays and the papers are sent out pretty promptly. You then have 2 weeks to complete and return them.

As things stand, I think you could sit the Level II and III computer exams without doing a manual qualification. However, I think courses aimed at these tend to teach the manual skills so that you can understand what is going on under the hood of the software.

The Level II and III computer exams are also done at home and can be sat any week.

Cheers

Neil

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

ICB level I is very straight forwards and it's the one manual exam that you can sit from home so like the computerised ones it's issued every Friday and you have a couple of weeks to get it back to them.

I stand to be corrected by others on the site but it's my belief that there's no option but to take the level I manual before doing the either of the Level II's (computerised or Manual).

The level II and III manuals are definitely sat at a centre at set dates at the moment... However! The ICB is changing and these exams are to be changed so that you are able to sit them on the same basis as driving theory tests so they're losing the limited number of sittings to be replaced with centres where you can walk in, take your test and get your results on the way out.

The best book that I would advise anyone to get for parts 1 & 2 is the BPP AAT foundation unit's 1-4. There are two versions. The course companion which is basically a study text and the revision companion that tests you as you go using real world example cases.

For bookkeeping you don't need to get the most up to date version of these texts. My revision companions from May 2007 and it's still completely applicable.

For reference only (you may get a different, older version of the same book) the ISBN numbers for the latest versions are 0751766992 for the text and 075176714X for the workbook.

For the part 3 manual I would advise Woods and Sangsters Business Accounting volume 1 (you might as well get volume 2 as well but that's moving more into accountancy than bookkeeping). I've not got them myself but as the ICB bookkeeping texts are written by Kaplan I suspect that they must be pretty good and should cover the full ICB syllabus. On Amazon the Beginner-Intermediate has a look inside function so you can have a glance at the index and first chapter to see if you like the style. The ISBN's for those are 1847107141 and 1847109152.

Just noticed on the beginner-intermediate one, why on earth would anyone pay £49.99 for a second hand copy when a brand new copy from Amazon is only £19.99!

Hope that this helps,

talk later,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Remember that as part of the ICB change there is no longer going to be a route where you can do just manual or just computerised. To get the AICB or MICB status you will have to take both exams at the relevant level.

Whilst training on the computerised side of bookkeeping will indeed teach some of the manual side I do not believe that such would be sufficient to get you through the Level III manual exam.

At the moment many training companies are not passing that information on to their clients. Also, in the case of the AAT qualifications, training companies are still selling both the NVQ/SVQ and Diploma routes even though these qualification routes disappear in June this year to be replaced with a new exam structure.

Wella · Expert

Shaun is correct, level 1 has to be completed first

Thought I'd save Shaun from RSI and have a go at this but he's just to quick.

With ICB you have to do each in sequence so it's level I first then you can do either or both types but you can only do level III after completing the level II grade in the appropriate discipline. You do not have to do manual first to complete the computerised qualification.

I did my distance learning with Ideal Schools as I believe they offer the best value for money. I found the course materials very good and during the whole learning process very rarely had to contact an advisor because the materials were clear and understandable. When I did need to contact them, they were very helpfull.

Their course materials weren't absolutely flawless and if any one was struggling with any aspect, it could cause problems (as students you tend to trust the materials, when there is an error, it makes you doubt yourself - not the material) but overall it was minimal.

I also used in conjunction with the course materials, Frank Wood's Book-Keeping and Accounts 6th Edition (it's now 7th) and also Oxford Dictionary of Accounting when I wasn't absolutely sure of a meaning.

Neil · Senior Member

Incidentally, while were talking about manual and computer exams, I'm have the impression that the manual courses and exams deal with a deeper knowledge of bookkeeping itself and I would have studied them for that reason alone.

What I hadn't considered was the fact that I'll have to sit an exam and write with a pen! I've been using computers for as long as they've been readily available and stopped writing anything but cheques years ago. I discovered just how much this has impacted on my handwriting when I decided to sit an ICB past paper at home.

Not only could I not finish the paper in the required time but even my wife couldn't read some of what I'd written. I'm left handed and have Dr before my name so I suppose I have plenty of excuses but none that will get me through an exam. Needless to say I started to practice and have developed a few strategies to ensure I don't run out of time again but I do wish they had allowed me to use Excel to complete the exam just as I have used it to carry out my course assignments.

Cheers

Neil

-- Edited by Neil on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 01:32:55 PM

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Interesting information, thank you, this is not what the ICB web site says.

To quote "

Examination dates

Computerised examinations are on demand and are available most weeks of the year."

Who do I have to ask to get the Manual 1 examination, is it through the HLC or direct to the ICB.

Many thanks

Peter

Manual examinations are normally held on the second Wednesday of February, June and October of each year. Deadline for entry is the 1st of the month prior (as from October 2008 sitting) (ie: January, May and September).

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

To do the exams you need an ICB membership number. Check with HLC to see if they have already sorted that out for you.

Once you're enrolled as a student you can either phone them or order the exam online and they send out the Level I exam to you in that Fridays mail shot.

The line below your signature is only applicable for the level II and III manual and as mentioned earlier that is in the process of being changed to be more student friendly (many more centres and much more frequent).

Although it's in the members are of the site you should be able to access the latest news section even before your a member. Check through that and you'll see all the info about changing exam structures, fee's etc.

cheers,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Hi Peter

From my own experience, with Ideal Schools. When I had completed the course work for each level, I had to book and pay for the exams with the ICB.

I am assuming you are already registered as student with them, so all you need to do is phone them on the main number, have your membership number handy and ask for the exam you want to take. For the home based exams, they send the papers out on a Friday, so if you phone on Thursday, you may get them by the Saturday or the latest Monday (normal PO service assumed)

Bill

(Shaun whats your typing speed?)

-- Edited by Wella on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 02:11:39 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bill,

think that we should definitely have a thread on here saying who the good guys and who the bad guys are as far as training providers. So far we seem to have Premier and Ideal as good guys and HLC sitting in the corner with their bag of gold scowling at people.

all the best,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

A private individual could apply for the Level I exam whenever they liked and pay the fee.

But if you're studying Level I with HLC they won't forward your application until you've passed a Mock exam at which point they'll send you a form to collect details. If it's part of your Sage course the exam fee will already have been paid.

Neil · Senior Member

Wella wrote:

Hi Peter

From my own experience, with Ideal Schools. When I had completed the course work for each level, I had to book and pay for the exams with the ICB.

Finally, a material advantage to studying with HLC! The exam fees are included in the cost of the courses.

Neil

-- Edited by Neil on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 02:17:32 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

But still not enough to justify the fee's variance...

ICB student registration : £45

Level I exam :£20

Level II exams : £25

Level III exams : £30

Wella · Expert

Ideal Schools does include the registration fee now, it didn't when I signed up, two years ago.

Bill

Neil · Senior Member

OK. I retract anything good I said about HLC!

peter1162 · Veteran Member

I have just found a major omission from the HLC course, that I want to report, I was going to contact my tutor and ask who to send feedback to.

Have you got any better ideas on how to provide feedback to HLC.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

What was the omission? Have you worked through it or is it brick wall issue? Anything that we can help with?

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Thank you for your quick reply.

Have no problems it is to with a description of the Remmittance Advice missing from the description in the text.

You are asked a question about it, and the only way I could work out what the answer was to go the answers, I know its cheating but sometimes needs must.

Kind regards

Peter

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Have had some contact from the HLC and it takes 12 weeks to obtain the student membership. Wow the speed of this organisation is breath taking. Is this the HLC or the ICB taking this extrodinary amount of time to process an application?

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

It's HLC.

ICB are pretty prompt and even by the standards of some of the slower bodies a three month turn around is pretty dire.

I joined in January 2008. I applied for membership of the ICB online on the 15th and my student card and logon details were posted on the 22nd and received the next day... 8 days / 3 months, not much of a difference!!!

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Peter

I would say that it is HLC, I can't remember how long it took to obtail my student membership just over a year ago but it was certainly not anywhere near 12 weeks, 12 days maybe not weeks.

Regards

Mark

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Can you possibly tell me please what is the best calculator to purchase for bookkeeping. With the basic stuff that I am doing now would only require something simple, but want to get one that will serve me for a long time.

Kind regards

Peter

Marky65 · Guru

Hi Peter

I have a casio HR-8TEC which has served me well for quite a while. But I think if you search on the forum there is a whole thread on calculators, started by Shamus I think, Apologies Shamus if it wasn't you.

Regards

Mark

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I love my old Xerox XRX-250's. I got a pair of them (now affectionately referred to as the twins) back in the days when you had to write the name of the calculator that you were using on the front page of exam paper that you were doing.

Unfortunately that information's no use at all to you can't get them anymore.

The sort of calculator that you need is one larger than a pocket calculator as you'll get to the stage where you use it almost without looking at it so the keys need to be big enough for your fingers.

Don't go for anything the size of an adding machine though as they're too cumbersome and you wouldn't be able to take them into exams anyway.

A good size for a calculator is around 5-6 inches square.

Get one with solar and battery backup. At least ten digit display (12 is better, 8 isn't enough).

Lots of functions that you will never use just clutter the calculator up. You will need the standard keys, a full set of memory keys that don't require any use of function buttons to access them and the ability to raise to the power of (essential when you get to calculating correlations or present values and annuities and you don't have present value tables to hand).

The Texet D3sktop MKII is available everywhere and isn't bad but it's not built to last (you want plastic rather than rubber keys).

Aurora do some excellent calculators and they're definitely built with the finance professional in mind. Try out the DT661 if you can get hold of one.

The more that you get into bookkeeping and accountancy the more that you will realise that a basic calculator is all that you will ever need or indeed want... Well, that and Excel anyway!

Talk later,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Mark,

Nope didn't start that one but was the first contributor! (no surprise there then).

See that you've gone for the adding machine... Not a fan myself although at least with the HR8TEC it's a more reasonable size than the dinosaurs that I've encountered at work.

Cheers,

Shaun.

Found it, was started by Bob Sharpe and can be found at http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=106474&p=3&topicID=33446880

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 4th of February 2010 04:58:02 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Just been looking around to see what happened to the Xerox calculators and managed to pick up a last of line XRX-150 amongst some old stock on Amazon.

Whilst looking around it seems that the old XRX-230's became a Staples home brand so I took a look on their site.

Their current calculators include this one :

http://www.staples.co.uk/technology/calculators-and-cash-registers/desktop-calculators/desktop-calculator-550

For £4.99 looks perfect for you.

10 digits, dual power, serious keys that are far enough apart not to make mistakes and also look to be hard wearing, all the functions that you need including non function switched memory keys... Might even buy one myself!

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

While your in Staples, you might want to look at their SPL-290 (it looks like it is now called Staples Desk Top 560

http://www.staples.co.uk/technology/calculators-and-cash-registers/desktop-calculators/desktop-calculator-560

12digits, solar, memory keys, nice sized keys and cheap to buy (£6.99)

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Thursday 4th of February 2010 06:47:07 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi bill,

Just looked it up. The SPL-290 used to be the XRX-290! Sounds as though your a convert to Xerox calculators as well! Excellent quality aren't they.

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Excellent bit of kit, considering the price.
Forgot to mention the nice big display and keys too and it's still small enough to take into exams or to a clients.

I am a fan

Bill

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

I still like my Aurora DT303!