Career advice - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

geek84 · Senior Member

Career advice

Wella · Expert

Hi

Just read your other post.

Other posts on the forum have sort of covered this question but to precis what has already been said.

The ICB qualification isn't particularly suited to an employment role, as it is not widely recognised by employers but does give a quailification and a fair grounding for self employment.

Unfortunately, ICB qualifications also do not qualify for exemptions to AAT exams.

I would recommend going straight to AAT, if you are looking for an employer recognised (and respected) qualification.

I have done the ICB route and really feel that I should have gone to AAT.

If you are able to get a job in an accounts practice, that would give you both practical experience and give the in house work experience required for eventual MAAT status

Bill

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Manjinder,

whilst there is very little difference between the ICB syllabus and the fundamental level AAT if you are looking for permanent or temp work then the AAT qualification will put you in a much better position than ICB.

Training providers will have you believe that there are more jobs than people out there but that is just not true and the qualification that you take can really make a difference to your career prospects.

You will find that many of the people on this site have ICB or IAB qualifications which is great if you want to take the self employed route. However, for employment you are much better off looking at AAT.

If you want to see what I mean take a look at the Reed website and try to find one job asking for ICB or IAB qualifications! I've yet to find one. Now take a look at how many are asking for AAT.

See what I mean!

Taking AAT right from the start will enhance your career prospects and also give you the self employed option.

As to a career path.

Once you have passed at least AAT fundamental level then take a look at temping in sales and purchase ledger roles. Combined with your existing credit control experience by the time that you've taken the intermediate AAT papers you should be able to start looking at permanent accounts assistant positions.

Once you've got a couple of years in an accounts office under your belt and attained MAAT status you could think about self employment, perhaps on a sideline basis for starters and then moving more and more towards self employment and away from a permanent role.

Right, that's just planed away the next three to five years of your life.

I think that as you are still early in your ICB studies as a matter of urgency you should review the situation and if possible move completely to AAT fundamental level now.

From the other thread I would not try to get any experience based exemptions as you need to practice the double entry side of things until its completely second nature.

You'll have plenty of opportunity for that with the first three AAT papers.

Premier training is a very good provider of distance learning for AAT and they're very reasonably priced.

Try to avoid some of the larger companies such as Home learning college who are a lot more expensive.

Good luck with your studies and hope that you take my advice of swapping to AAT earlier rather than later.

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bill,

great minds and all that.

Seems we just gave exactly the same advice. (I just managed to stretch it out a bit further).

I know that we've given this advice a hundred times before but I suppose that it's a nice welcome to newbies to the site is we give them a warm and fuzzy personalised answer for starters.

Sometiimes it's difficult trying not to discourage newbies with the truth of this industry.

Personally I've more or less given up on it and I'm just waiting for feedback at the moment from an interview that I did a couple of days back for one of the little banks for a permie job as a business and data analyst.

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 3rd of June 2010 02:55:22 PM

Wella · Expert

Hi Shaun

I know what you mean, it is nicer to get a welcoming response.
I always got my ear bent when I worked for a certain car manufacturing co. because I had to send technical reports to Japan and would always keep it to a minimum but I was never allowed to send them on first draft because they weren't flowery enough.

In what way have you become dispondent with the world of bookkeeping/ accountancy? You strike me as someone who doesn't give up and you have had the patience of Jobe. How many years have you been getting your qualifications?

I wish you luck for the outcome of your interview.

-- Edited by Wella on Thursday 3rd of June 2010 03:14:31 PM

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Thanks very much for your advice about AAT. I will seriously consider changing to AAT from ICB. The only reason why I stuck with ICB once I started the course, was that I was told by a few friends that I would get exemptions from AAT anyway. (if I complete the ICB course). However from some of your posts, it seems as though that may not happen !!

However, the only thing is that I have paid a deposit for this ICB course and the rest is to be paid n 12 monthly instalments. If I do change to AAT, do you think I would get a part refund for this ICB course? I am doing this course through a provider called Training Link. Have you heard of them? Mind you, I could always cancel my direct debits !!

By the way, I am also interested in becoming a Data Analyst inthe interim. In your opinion, what qualifications/experience is required for this type of job?

Thanks

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bill,

not despondent with the bookkeeping / accountancy. Love the technical side of it all and still intend to have my own practice one day (and you're not all getting rid of me so easily off here!).

It's just the peaks and troughs of bookkeeping with the peaks not really being lucrative enough to support the troughs.

It certainly doesn't help matters with the draconian restrictions that the ACCA put on me. Perhaps I would be more up beat if I had taken the AAT route and was able to offer clients a full service arrangement.

It's quite sad to see all the hopefuls joining this site on the empty promises of training providers and you just know full well that for many the cost of the courses that they sign up to will be more than they ever bring in from bookkeeping!

Not blowing our own trumpets too loudly but I think that the likes of ourselves are towards the top of the bookkeeping tree and it's still a struggle to turn over a profit.

I don't know how you manage it with only the one income source.

I've got two and if it wasn't for the week here or there doing bank reports there's no way that I could make ends meet from what we make at this.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Manjinder,

I probably talking about a different sort of data analysis to what you think I am.

Mine involves defining the data structures upon which the clients relational databases are built. That incorporates understanding the business requirements, client systems, comparative industry systems and the technical environment.

I think that your thinking more along the lines of management reporting based on data extracts which is the sort of thing that CIMA students would be involved with.

Once you've done AAT you should be able to get exemptions from some of the CIMA papers (although you still have to pay for the paper. The exemptions are actually more akin to guaranteed passes without actually having to sit the paper that you've paid for).

If this is the way that you want for your career to go then rather than trying to find a job in practice you need to try and find a position in industry working in a dedicated accounts department producing management reports and looking after the entities internal control.

Do you have a degree? If you don't have experience then your going to find having a good degree pretty much mandatory to get to interview.

Having knowledge of Oracle, DB2, SAP, IMS, SSADM, BPMN, UML, Agile or Six Sigma, etc. will set you apart from other degree holding, CIMA studying candidates so if you took this route you might also want to self study maybe BPMN and Oracle (especially PL/ SQL) for starters.

geek84 · Senior Member

Many Thanks for that Shamus.

I have been looking into the AAT qualification and it seems that it is broadly split into 3 parts - Foundation, Intermdiate, and Higher/Technician stage. However, on a few other forums mention is also made of a diploma in AAT. Do you know what that is?

Am I right in saying that whicever training prpvider I choose, it will lead to the same qualification and the same teaching levels will be covered - foundation, intermediate, and higher/technician?

Many Thanks

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Manjinder,

From later this month the two AAT streams NVQ and Diploma are being rolled into one so from now on it will just be the AAT qualification rather than AAT NVQ route or AAT Diploma route.

Dependent upon previous experience depends on where you join the qualification but as discussed previously I think that you need to join at foundation level.

Not all training providers run all three parts of the qualification. However, you must have all three parts (or exemptions from some parts) in order to achieve the AAT qualification. You will also need to do one year post qualification in a supervised role in order to get MAAT status.

Premier training definitely cover all three levels.

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Many thanks for your help so far.

My situatuon is as follows -

As you may be aware, I have started doing the ICB book keeping course. I am on level 1 and have gone through the allocated work book. I have done all the exercises in the book and checked against the answer book - I got them all correct!

I then contacted the learning provider - 'Training Link', to tell them this, and they said I now need to take a mock exam, on the computer, (in preparation for the real exam) for this level (level 1). However, they have said that I am at a stage where they cannot offer me any help wirth any of the questions. I have gone through this whole mock exam paper and cannot get the trial balance to balance. I have been told that they are not willing to check my answers until I get to balance the trial balance. I have been racking my brains over this for the last few days. I have also amended a few entries in accordance with the help given above by a few people, and I have gone through the work book several times to make sure I have posted my entries correctly. However, I still cannot get the figures to balance!

What do you suggest I do? Do you think I should get a professional book keeper to give me one to one tuition and explain to me where I am going wrong in posting my entries?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Rhianrach · Expert

Get hold of a copy if you can of AAT NVQ foundation course companion units 1-4 isbn 9780751766998 this has a good easy to understand section on trial balances, it teaches you how to look at different accounts decide the type of account and determine which side the balances should be put.

Don't use "training link" again would be my next piece of advice, why can't they just help you thats what you have paid them for surely.

Alternatively post a copy of your trial balance as it stands and I could give you some hints (not answers) on where you may be going wrong.

Also if its anything like AAT then it wont balance, they expect you to do journals extracted from a narrative in order to balance the suspense, not sure if this is how ICB do it though.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

This being a training provider seems a really cushy number doesn't it! You can sell courses and not offer any support. Great job if you can get it!

Manjinder, not all training providers are like that. When your free of the current bunch post on here the next course that you're going to do and people will be able to give better advice as to which training provider to choose (normally that would be either Premier Training or Ideal Schools).

semsley · Guru

Hmm, maybe I should set up as a training provider (rather than a trainer), I have loads of resources (bit of a hoarder) from my teaching days plus stuff I've done for specific companies. I'd never really thought about distance learning provision, perhaps it's time to start - it would also save my voice!!!!

geek84 · Senior Member

Semsley

Then weill you be able to help me with the assignment question that I have to complete as part of this ICB course that I am doing?

Thanks

geek84 · Senior Member

Hi Folks

Is it true that if you have a degree, then you do not have to do the AAT - you can go straight on to the ACCA/CIMA? Or does it depend on the type/classification of the degree?

Thanks

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Manjinder,

Just read that your in the West Midlands. Where abouts? I'm in Cannock just North of Brum.

you seem to have confused matters here.

There is no link at all between AAT and ACCA.

AAT will give you exemptions but they are not a necessity in order to start ACCA.

If you have a degree then it may give exemptions dependent upon both the subject taken and the university that it was studied at. (The right qualification from the wrong university and the wrong qualification from the right university gain you nothing).

There's a handy little route map to membership that can be found here

http://www.accaglobal.com/documents/entry_routes.pdf

A wrong degree can still gain some exemptions from the first three papers but best to check it out here :

http://www.accaglobal.com/join/exemptions/

Note that you can always join the ACCA via the MSER which means that you have two years to pass the first two modules. These two are the equivalent of the whole AAT syllabus (so if you took the AAT route first you would have gained exemption from these).

As advice, if you take the MSER route don't become a student until you are ready to take the exams as the two years (four exam sittings) starts counting as soon as you join.

With the ACCA is you are granted any exemptions you still have to pay for the exam that you won't be taking. It's just the equivalent of being given a guaranteed pass.

If your degree gives you exemption from all nine fundamental papers your exemption fee on joining would be £717 made up from Initial registration, Subscription, 3*Fundamental papers and 6*Skills papers.

Before you take any exemptions though you really need to ask yourself whether you should. The later papers assume knowledge brought forwards from earlier papers and to have not taken them may be setting yourself up to fail.

The ACCA qualification is hugely complex. The early papers and a 50% pass mark sucker many people in. But when they realise how quickly the papers become impossibly difficult and how difficult it is to get 30% let alone 50% in the three hours many, many people drop out.

When sitting the papers you notice that every exam sitting seems to only have only half as many people as the previous one... Conversely the cars in the exam centre car park seem twice as good!

Don't forget that with ACCA you only have ten years to pass (sounds easier than it is!). Also you have to gain experience of all elements of your performance record which now includes Audit as a non optional element.

Hope that this email helps,

Good luck with whatever route that you take,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Saturday 19th of June 2010 09:04:57 AM

geek84 · Senior Member

H Shaun

Many thanks for your reply.

I live in Wolverhampton - not too far from you. So perhaps we could meet up !! What is your email address, and we could keep in touch.

Anyway, I did my degree about 20 years ago from Wolverhampton university. It was a non honours degree, and was made up of moduleds from finance, business studies, and computing.

As you know by now, I am thinking of having a career change and going into accountancy. A few friends of mine advised that it may be a good idea to do all the three AAT stages, and then prehaps go on to do the ACCA or CIMA, if I feel up to it. However, a few of my other contacts have suggested that although I have a non honours degree, I would be exempt from some/part of the AAT. Do you know if this is the case?

Also, in your opinion, would it be better to do the AAT or MSER?
Which one is less time consuming and which one is cheaper?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Manjinder,

I took the MSER route and have really enjoyed my studies. However, in hindsight I think that AAT would have been a better (and faster) route for me.

ACCA puts a lot of restrictions on its students. AAT is more flexible about what it allows students to do.

However, ACCA does not require a training provider where AAT still does.

I would not claim any exemptions from the ACCA qualifications as passing those first three papers sets you up for most of the next six which in turn will set you up for the final five.

The qualification is well thought out with papers building upon the knowledge acquired in earlier studies. To miss out any puts you at a disadvantage as the complexity of the questions gets increasingly more difficult as the qualification progresses.

I could have taken exemption due t having the Open University Certificate in Accountancy (Course B680) but chose not to and I'm glad that I didn't as the level of knowledge expected for the ACCA papers went well beyond that of the Open University... No complaint about the OU qualification there as that one is excellent. Just saying that ACCA seems more complex.

If I were you I would opt for the AAT qualification and then decide later whether to go for ACCA. Considering some of the earlier questions I would also take the exams rather than claiming exemptions even if you can.

Oops, got to go, talk soon,

Shaun.