Qualifications - ICB or IAB or AAT???? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

AJR1712 · Member

Qualifications - ICB or IAB or AAT????

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Good Morning Andrew,

welcome to the forum.

You are completely correct in your assumptions. IAB gives exemptions, ICB does not.

You need to ask yourself why you are going down this path as there are several other option to throw in the pot.

If you are looking for employment then you really need to look at AAT right from the start (just have a look on the Reed website and try and find and ads requesting ICB or IAB qualifications!).

If you are looking to gain an understanding of bookkeeping then also take a look at :

1) The AAT ABC Bookkeeping qualification. This will give you exemption from the foundation level AAT qualification.

2) The Open University course B190. This course is the AAT ABC Bookkeeping qualification but sold by the OU. It actually gives more exemptions even though it is the same course! Guess the negotiators at the OU are just better than those with the AAT.

If you are considering self employment then either ICB or IAB is fine although ICB changed the rules earlier this year in a most unprofessional manner allienating themselves from many existing members in practice.

The IAB seem less arrogant than the ICB but your experience of the bodies may be different.

As you touched on in your post though the main difference is that the IAB qualification carries exemptions from higher level qualifications where the ICB one does not.

IAB does recognise the ICB qualification for transfer of membership but that's where one has passed most of the ICB exams, not on a paper by paper transfer basis.

This makes sense as the more people that move from the ICB to the IAB the stronger that the IAB becomes at the expense of their direct competition.

Ignoring the introductory qualifications, as a quick rundown of equivalent supervisory bodies in ascending order they would be :

IAB or ICB

AAT or CAT

ACCA or CIMA

ACA (ICAEW, ICAS)

There are also tax specific qualifications such as ATT (same level as AAT) or CIOT (Same level as ACA) but you will come to those later in your studies.

Don't spend a fortune on training courses. Neither ICB or IAB require you to have a training provider... Although training providers really try to hide that fact!

If you read the right books you should be able to get through the qualifications just the same as if you had a training provider telling you which books to read.

Let us know if your going to self study and your background and we'll give you a self study program that should get you to where you need to be.

Hope that this answers your questions. And hope that you enjoy your studies Andrew.

All the best,

Shaun.

flimper · Member

I've just done the AAT Level 2 in bookkeeping. I started completely from scratch and I can thoroughly recommend it.

AJR1712 · Member

Thanks Shamus,

You say the following.....

'IAB does recognise the ICB qualification for transfer of membership but that's where one has passed most of the ICB exams, not on a paper by paper transfer basis.'

Do you know which/how many you have to pass to get those exemptions?

Let me put a little flesh on the bones......

I have being looking at a course from the National Extension College which relates to the sylabusses of both the ICB and the IAB. Will that prepare me for the AAT ABC Bookkeeping course to your knowledge?

I would be interested in your advice regarding self study as well.

Cheers

Andrew

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Andrew,

the AAT ABC Bookkeeping / OU B190 would initially be instead of ICB / IAB. You would then use the qualification to gain exemption from ICB / IAB / AAT papers. (Note the AAT ABC Bookkeeping is NOT AAT, it is however the equivalent of AAT Foundation).

Actually, checking out other posts on this site there may be a problem with moving from ICB to IAB due to the sheer number of people taking that route.

See this thread http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/index.spark?aBID=106474&p=3&topicID=29850908)

And also this one over on accounting Web http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/item/189952

Best methinks that you check directly with the IAB on the current situation on that one.
For self study don't buy too many books at once or you'll never finish any of them!

Have a look at these threads which should help you on the self study route :

http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/index.spark?aBID=106474&p=3&topicID=33479843

http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/index.spark?aBID=106474&p=3&topicID=33821130

Seeing the advice as parts of existing discussions should help to give you a wider understanding of matters.

Hope that the above threads help for starters.

Kind regards,

Shaun.

louis · Veteran Member

It would also be advisable to wait until 1st July 2010 before making any major decisions. The AAT new syllabus will be confirmed by then and we can be clearer about exemptions.

AAT have now added computerised accounts to their level 2 course which is not currently on the ABC bookkeeping course. I believe people may still get exemptions but may have to pay for the additional units not covered on the ABC course, which are "Computerised Accounts" and "Health and Safety".

gazal · Veteran Member

Hi. Just wondering where the statistics come from with regards IAB taking members from ICB. IAB are almost finished in the UK and even their top training provider now does ICB courses. I think the story that South African ICB Members can now become members of IAB has been misleading a few people but reading between the lines why would IAB do that if they were doing well?

On another topic ICB do not accept AAT qualifications as they do not cover enough on the double entry bookkeeping in AAT.

If you want to be a bookkeeper do IAB or ICB. if you want a job in an accounts department do AAT if you want to be an accountant prepare for at least six years at uni and pray for a job afterwards.

Rhianrach · Expert

gazal wrote:

On another topic ICB do not accept AAT qualifications as they do not cover enough on the double entry bookkeeping in AAT.

I'm still laughing ten minutes later.

If you want to learn about double entry go for the AAT.

gazal · Veteran Member

The AAT bookkeeping qualification is relatively new and as the A in the middle stands for Accounting which has a different definition to Bookkeeping I would have thought it better to join a bookkeeping association or institude and likewise an accountancy association if you want to work in accountancy. I have done and taught both so if there is anything you need to know just ask me. Accountants do not do double entry, they do figures. My daughter has also done AAT to tech level and she works in an acounts department crunching figures, the bookkeepers do the original entries.
AAT (Accounts) qualified people fail the exemption test for ICB, this is fact so perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your knowledge and experience. Or did you just learn something?

attilabenko · Guru

On that one if you want to be a bookkeeper get some (with or without any bodies) studies and good experience and do it. Your clients will know no difference of IAB,ICB or AAT. All the above bodies will restrict what you are allowed to do, if you don't go with them no restrictions (costs yes) apart from those a chartered accountants have to sign.
If you want a job (and you may not want one now but who knows in a few years time) go for AAT.
Back to South Africa I don't know but I don't think ICB SA has any connections whatsoever with our ICB.
ICB and IAB seem to live on new students from training providers and vice versa and which school does IAB or ICB has nothing to do with their (non existing) recognition in the industry.
Again if you don't apply for a job it makes no difference. If you do and there is only two applicants one ICB and one IAB they maybe choose the IAB (maybe) but this is never going to happen,there is a tendency of min.50 applicants for any one job in this industry and they will choose experience or AAT.
If you go for AAT and get a good job you have the chance your employer will pay for ACCA or other accountancy qualification and if you are only part qualified AAT they might pay for the rest of your course(if you are lucky)

I have to go to carve the chicken ;)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Steve,

I just read Garry's comments and had a smile myself.

Garry I think that you've been believing the ICB for too long.

The ICB quote figures about the other institutions members being unable to pass their exams but to be honest I don't believe them as they don't use hard evidence just statistics that the people that they are quoting them to can nether prove not disprove as fact.

They tell us that people from higher bodies cannot do their exams. Personally I'm ACCA and without any revision from bookkeeping texts I got 99% in level I manual and 98% at level II manual.

I would take what the ICB tell you as facts in relation to people's success rates from other bodies with a large pinch of salt.

As a tutor you realise of course that employers are only interested in people to do the bookkeeping work who have AAT qualifications. Nobody is interested in ICB (Jut have a glance at the Reed website and tell me if you find an ad for an ICB qualified person!).

The IAB qualification is recognised by other institutions for exemptions where the ICB qualification is not. This is useful in that people can learn bookkeeping and be able to use the qualification for exemptions if they move on to AAT.

If one takes ICB qualifications then at best one would be able to take the AAT skills test to show a level of prior learning. You could not just use the qualification for exemptions.

On the subject of what a name implies, the IFA used to be the institute of bookkeepers. Because it's now got accountancy in the name do you believe that those accountants can no longer perform the work of bookkeepers?

All of the accountants that I know have excellent knowledge of bookkeeping which remains the basis of everything. How else would they be able to apply the journal entries.

As a tutor you must realise that the AAT foundation, ACCA paper F3, etc. are all pure bookkeeping covering at least all of the material of the ICB qualification.

The IAB is far from a dead or dieing organisation. It is recognised around the world. I read the South African thing as the ICB trying to hold on to members by giving them dual memberships rather than just moving from ICB to IAB.

As for the AAT qualification being relatively new. They were set up in 1980. Their pedigree is that they were formed and sponsored by ICAEW, ICAS, CIMA and CIPFA.

The IAB was formed in 1973 and it's qualifications are recognised by ICAEW, ACCA, CIMA and CIPFA.

The ICB was formed in 1996 and as mentioned above none of the major bodies give exemptions based on ICB qualifications.

Sorry to correct you but it's the ICB that is the new boy here.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Attila,

sorry, wasn't ignoring you. Just had to rewrite mine a few times and you posted whilst I was trying to ensure that there was nothing that Garry could take the wrong way.

I'm not trying to insult the guy who I'm sure has the best intentions but there are just so many holes in his posts that it's difficult for me not to sound either confrontational or condescending.

I'm not trying for either of those but lets see how it gets taken!

Rhianrach · Expert

gazal wrote:

The AAT bookkeeping qualification is relatively new and as the A in the middle stands for Accounting which has a different definition to Bookkeeping I would have thought it better to join a bookkeeping association or institude and likewise an accountancy association if you want to work in accountancy. I have done and taught both so if there is anything you need to know just ask me. Accountants do not do double entry, they do figures. My daughter has also done AAT to tech level and she works in an acounts department crunching figures, the bookkeepers do the original entries.
AAT (Accounts) qualified people fail the exemption test for ICB, this is fact so perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your knowledge and experience. Or did you just learn something?

Of course you will know then after your daughter and yourself being so crash hot that the foundation level in AAT is purely about the double entry system, your comment previous to this suggests that the ICB is a better qualification, strange that no matter whether the job be bookkeeper or accountant that you never see "must have ICB qualification" yet frequently see "must be qualified or studying towards AAT", and since you ask I have just gained employment in a bookkeeping role based partly on experience and partly on the fact that I'm studying for the AAT, something my employer regards highly. What I will do is when I've achieved technician or level 4 as it shall now be known, I shall take the exemption test and see if it wasn't just a broad sweeping statement from yourself concerning people who have studied the AAT, or if it's just your acqaintances.
To be honest I think you are a tad arrogant, and a bit jumped up, and fully believe I can get through life without your offer of advice, TA.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Steve,

Actually, just reread that last line from Garry's note and it is a bit off for this site isn't it!

Over that last few months I have seen lots of help and advice from yourself appearing on this site but nothing at all from Garry.

I think that people who listen to the ICB really believe what they're saying about AAT and ACCA bods being unable to pass bookkeeping exams but we on here know that it's an unsubstantiated load of twaddle.

Remember that as a tutor Garry has a vested interest in perpetuating the ICB myth about where the qualification will get you.

Lets just hope that no newbies read Garry's comments and make decisions based upon them... Sure they won't as our replies do fill in a lot more of the reality of the situation.

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Hi Steve,

Actually, just reread that last line from Garry's note and it is a bit off for this site isn't it!

Over that last few months I have seen lots of help and advice from yourself appearing on this site but nothing at all from Garry.

I think that people who listen to the ICB really believe what they're saying about AAT and ACCA bods being unable to pass bookkeeping exams but we on here know that it's an unsubstantiated load of twaddle.

Remember that as a tutor Garry has a vested interest in perpetuating the ICB myth about where the qualification will get you.

Lets just hope that no newbies read Garry's comments and make decisions based upon them... Sure they won't as our replies do fill in a lot more of the reality of the situation.

Hi Shaun,

Maybe Garry isn't real and is just an ICB bot biggrin

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Steve,

lol, Garry does seem very much indoctrinated with ICB propaganda.

There are quite a few issues with Garry's argument such as the statements about AAT being a relatively new qualification where they have been around since 1980 but the ICB has only been around since 1996.

The worst lie that is being perpetuated though is that members of other bodies are unable to pass ICB exams.

Actually, I don't think that the ICB would actually lie as such but there is a lot that can be done with statistics. what's the old quote, there are lies, damn lies and statistics!

I would dearly love to see the data behind the ICB statistics but of course they won't actually share that information with anyone.

The quote from the ICB is that people from accountancy bodies are unable to pass the entry level ICB exams.

Are they talking about people qualified with other bodies or people who signed up with the other bodies but found that they were not ready to study at that level and decided to do ICB first?

From an ACCA perspective if someone has passed paper F3 or the old paper 1.1 then they are at least as knowledgeable as someone who is MIAB or MICB.

The IAB recognise this fact, the ICB refuse to. I assume that the reality here is that because nobody recognised the ICB qualification then they are refusing to recognise anyone elses.

Its a real shame that inter body politics seem to have messed matters up as the quality of the ICB qualification is actually pretty good.... Although I would say that it is as good as AAT foundation, IAB or ACCA paper F3, not better than any of them.

gazal · Veteran Member

I have no preference towards any of them but I am close enought to all awarding bodies to understand the politics within and also the statistics. You are entitled to your opinions and I have no argument with any of you. By the way ICB SA have no connection with ICB UK. I think the crest and the fact that IAB are competitors gives this one away.

The AAT Bookkeeping qualification is relatively new and they introduced it to compete for members with IAB and ICB. When they were formed has no bearing on when they introduced a new qualification. ICB are launching a level 4 qualification which will verge on accountancy. If you check the new sylabus for levels 1, 2 and 3 you will see the difference in learning outcomes to that od AAT.
IAB are falling behind because they havnt done any development for a while and their marketing is not very strong.

ACCA are only doing a fraction of what they were doing two years ago.

Yes there are jobs out there for AAT qualified people because most jobs advertised are with companies who have an accounts department. These companies use an in house system that can be used by admin staff to collate the figures and do not use bookkeepers as such. Bookkeepers tend to be self employed and it is a growing industry due to the fact they can charge less than half what an accountant charges, plus there are more people self employed and employed in small business than there are in corporates and all of these businesses need bookkeepers, accountants or both.

As for providing sound advise this was started by Andrew who expressed an interest in becoming a bookkeeper, not an accountant, so AAT should never have come into it as their qualification is relatively new and as far as supporting members in bookkeeping they do not specialise.

I am no longer a tutor. It seems that my reference to having taught both was interpreted that I still am. If this were the case I would have stated that I teach both.
The bottom line is that if you want a job do AAT accounting and if you want to be a self emplyed bookkeeper do IAB or ICB. ICB can be achieved much quicker, even more so now that they have launched the exams on demand with Pearson Vue and they have raised the bar in terms of learning outcomes. AAT will be following suit with the exams on demand. IAB are falling behind.
ACCA are taking all comers just to keep going.
CIMA is ok if you want to work for a corporate but AAT Technician plus a good few years experience will be required.

louis · Veteran Member

Gazal, to be honest the ICB are money motivated. They will be loosing many of their members to IAB as they are now adding more exams before students can gain membership. I also think they are in cahoots with some of the training providers who try to sell you their courses.

The IAB is a more prestigious qualification than ICB hence the reason they won't be selling their courses to any incompetent training providers who in turn rams their courses down peoples throats. The IAB are very cautions with the way their qualifications are marketed and sold, hence the reason many of the higher qualification bodies respect and accept it.

gazal · Veteran Member

Hi Louis. I would have agreed with you two to three years ago but ICB have improved year after year. The problem with both bodies is the training provider angle. Both ICB and IAB are represented by notorious hard sell companies. But then one of them also represent AAT. both represent Sage who are the biggest money grabbers of the lot. At the end of the day they are all businesses and they have to make money, AAT included.
The reasoning behind raising the qualification levels for membership is to fall in line with HMRC. HMRC want everyone computerised but the theory behind computerised is imperative so the manual exams now have to be passed as well as the computerised.
In general there is a problem with people using computerised packages who do not understand enough of the theory to carry out the tasks, and as a result HMRC get bombarded with telephone calls from people wanting to know what to do in a certain scenario. Sage are partly to blame for this because they give the impression that all you have to do is learn how to use it and you become an accountant, the result being a lot of loose cannons out there.
It must be a real pain for the ICB members who have to upgrade but I think it does make sense and maybe should have been introduced a few years ago. ICB still have the upper hand here beause they moved before anyone else and even with the extra requirements you could complete all five exams up to full member in less time than you can complete two IAB,s or AAT's. I see the exam prices have also been hiked up but even then they are still less than the others.

I agree with all that ICB do need to improve the image and they are not doing themselves any favours by allowing HLC to market, sell and provide ICB accredited courses. I have heard that although the courses are massively overpriced the courses and support are as good as any others, its just the way they go about selling and the very the high prices. then again if people didnt buy from them in the first place they wouldnt be able to carry on selling them.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I'm not going to be bated about the ACCA. Its a a very well respected qualification and a sound institution.

No matter how many times that you state that AAT is a new qualification I'm afraid that you can't make it a fact!

BPP have been producing texts for AAT qualifications since at least 1988 (8 years before the ICB came into exisance).

Are you perhaps now going to suggest that they produced the books just in case the AAT decided to have a qualification!

Your last statement didn'tmake any sense. There is no direct link between AAT and CIMA? Yes people may have both but CIMA does not necessitate AAT.

I think that you have actually been disparaging of every qualification except for the ICB's.

Anyway, fact is that no matter how the ICB tries to convince us all otherwise nobody is playing catch up with the ICB.

gazal · Veteran Member

ACCA: I only said the numbers were dropping. Source: Kaplan Publishing, plus a few other publishers. perhaps it is unprofessional of me to quote someone but it is a fact, I have statistics. As a matter of fact I think ACCA is the best qualification of the lot but the problem is that they take all comers willing to pay the money. I had someone get in last week who hadnt even got a level 1 in bookkeeping.

When did AAT start doing the bookkeeping exams? Not the accountancy exams Shamus. Perhaps you could ask BPP or Kaplan because you are out of touch.

AAT will be providing online exams on demand soon, computerised competence is not compulasry yet and as such not falling in line with compliance but it will.
IAB, CIMA, ACCA have no plans to do so yet although IAB can do it overnight if they want to.

AAT is an ideal platform for CIMA. Its pointless doing a CIMA without gaining some experience along the way and you are hardly likely to get that experience doing anything else. I didnt say it was compulsary but merely from experience suggested it. AAT is also the ideal platform for ACCA. But not quite compulary Shamus.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

You need to phrase statements differently.

The ACCA will allow anyone from any background or education to attempt its first three papers.

If you can pass those within two years then you will be allowed to do the ACCA qualification.

Thats not exactly taking all comers just to keep going!

You may have missed it but we were / are in a reccession. The fact that the accountancy bodies were taking on less graduates is obviously going to effect the figures for ACCA students being enrolled with Kaplan and BPP.

The reality is that in percentage of the market the ACCA share has increased and it is the market that has shrunk (can't remember which copy of PQ Magazine that comes from but when I'm back home later in the week I'll dig it out).

The comparrison in question was between ACCA, CIMA, ACA, AAT and CIPFA.

What some bodies refer to as bookkeeping others refer to as basic accountancy.

Have a look at the BPP study text for AAT paper 1a. published august 1988. ISBN-10: 0862771706

Similarly ACCA paper F3 which covers all of the ICB sylabus is called financial accountancy.

This is one of those topics where you will never see things my way and I will never see them yours.

Both of us see ourselves as being correct and the other as incorrect so maybe we should just leave it at that.

gazal · Veteran Member

Whay do you continue to interpret that I am knocking ACCA? Read what people are writing before answering please. I merely state that the numbers are dropping and I even know why. Thank you for rephrasing all comers welcome though.

This is the AAT bookkeeping qualification I have been refering to. http://www.aat.org.uk/content/item2560/ The remainder are refered to as accountancy qualifications. Perhaps AAT dont know as much as you. Yes I agree that branding can come into play and there is little difference between bookkeeping and accountancy in the early stages but the fact is that Andrew stated that he wanted to be a bookkeeper and you simply confused him by trying to impress.

The normal process here is to ask him what he ultimately wants to achieve and then advise on what you THINK is the best route.
I doubt you have any experience in helping people achieve their goals based on the barrage of confusing information you have provided.

AAT paper 1a. published august 1988. ISBN-10: 0862771706 is titled Basic Accounting not Basic Bookkeeping. Why would they now decide to call their bookkeeping qualification a bookkeeping qualification unless it was different to an accounting qualification.

If recession is the reason for lowering figures why are other awarding bodies doing so well?
I dont read journals because they tend to be biased and are used to influence people in the same way as politics, but I do network with with top people from awarding bodies, courseware writers, publishers, HMRC, Colleges, tutors and students in my capacity.

Andrew. just look at what you want to achieve and do some research on it. Forums are not the place for this as you can see.

Steve. I dont laugh at or ridicule people even if they deserve it but I do pitty the ignorant.

Shamus. you need to get out more.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi,

Why would they now decide to call their bookkeeping qualification a bookkeeping qualification unless it was different to an accounting qualification. (AAT ABC)

I have an answer for that. It is a new source of income. If you rebrand something you can sell it again, can't you? And if you keep the original brand as well, than it is even better.

ACA accounting modul called accounting not bookkeeping and still it is basic double-entry.
Quote it The aim of the Accounting module is to ensure that students have a sound understanding of the techniques of double -entry accounting and can apply it's principles in recording transactions, adjusting financial records and preparing non-complex financial statements - and it does cover the ICB syllabus.
Even so with a computerised exam,multiple choice questions it is possible to pass an exam without the actual knowledge.

I have so much to say about all this, I would love to agree and argue at the same time with both of you - nothing is better than a good arguement :) - just don't want to get involved...

And as it was stated before this does not help Andrew for sure...

Hi Shaun,

did you start your new job yet? Good luck with it!

-- Edited by attilabenko on Monday 28th of June 2010 02:29:09 PM

semsley · Guru

I was a tutor and have also been an examiner/moderator for an awarding body. My problem with the ICB is the fact that its exams can be taken at home and over a period of two weeks. Where's the validity and reliability in such an exam situation? No wonder the other awarding bodies don't allow exemptions. The other reason, I believe, is that ICB examinations are not approved on the NQF and therefore are not to NOS.

-- Edited by semsley on Tuesday 29th of June 2010 02:12:01 PM

Peasie · Expert

semsley wrote:
My problem with the ICB is the fact that it's exams can be taken at home and over a period of two weeks.

Only the Level 1 (*) can be taken at home. And you don't have two weeks you have two hours. You have two weeks from when you pay for the exam but when you click on the start button you only have two hours. Maybe with the paper based home exams you had the two weeks but not any more. But Level 1 is still an open book exam.

(*) Manual - the computerised ones are different.

semsley · Guru

Irrespective, you have two weeks to work out the exam then two hours still with access to book or other person, therefore, validity and reliability are big issues.

Peasie · Expert

semsley wrote:

Irrespective, you have two weeks to work out the exam then two hours still with access to book or other person, therefore, validity and reliability are big issues.

You don't .
I thought you did before I sat it but I was wrong.
You only see the questions when you click the start button so you only have two hours. They have changed the way they do Level 1 now.

With the level 1 it isn't going to get you anywhere anyway. So even if you do cheat and get someone else to sit it for you, you still have to sit the Level 2 under exam conditions at an exam centre so it is a waste of time cheating.

attilabenko · Guru

this one is right, you cannot do much with level 1 but still it is not really an exam because of the above,is it? and even if just one of the exams is like that, it questions the reliabilty of results so the accreditation of qualification will be difficult.

It is a shame ICB giving away a large number of not accredited qualifications and charge a fair bit of money for it. They should get this issue sorted, probably would work out better for them as well in long term. Ok, once they are accredited they couldn't do whatever they want without effecting their accreditation. Every year they come up with the big talk and promises about these issues but nothing ever happens.

gazal · Veteran Member

Spot on Attila.
They are all scrambling for members and ultimately money. Level 1 would be ok for someone who wanted a basic insight into doing their own books and lets face it we all have to start somewhere and get the foundations laid.
ICB have made so many changes this year by swapping subjects around from one level to another. VAT on early settlement discounted invoices has been introduced to level 1, I have always regarded this as level 2. The only reason I can see for this is to make themselves different and raise the bar slightly. Dr Dunn who has been involved in many a TV debate and also a lot of writing for AAT has been recruited, and I feel most of these changes have been down to him, in particular the new level 4 qualification.

The main reason behind the changes are Ofqual. ICB have been trying to get recognition for some time now and from what I have heard failed at the first hurdle but are continuing to work at it.
AAT and IAB have lost government funding in the colleges so the door is wide open now. Also another reason for the demise.

I do find it strange though that AAT have introduced this course, apart from competing with IAB and ICB I cant really see any logic. It is also a CBT course which again gets me thinking as I have never seen a decent bookkeeping course delivered this way. There could also be an integrity issue here as it seems they are not involving colleges and training providers. Its a bit like watching a battle unfold but as with all battles someone has to lose and I do think it will be IAB. Shame really but they would only have themselves to blame for not moving with the times.

RuthA · Senior Member

But to play devil's advocate, in the real world of work, you'd be able to look up something you weren't sure of. And if we're talking validity, does a 2 hour exam of any sort really show that you have competence to work as a bookkeeper?

I'm not suggesting any better alternatives, but I don't think there's much chance of high reliability or validity unless you're looking at an extensive course involing multiple assessments in different formats eg exam and work based assessment.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Gazal,

What an unbelievably rude and aggressive message!

The quote from your message :

I doubt you have any experience in helping people achieve their goals based on the barrage of confusing information you have provided.

So obviously you've not been reading this site for the last six months!

I stand by the quote that if you want employment rather than self employment as a bookkeeper then you go AAT.

All information that I have provided is sound, well researched and mostly from experience.

Yours is biased, your attitude is insulting and the advice that you have given to date is at times completely inaccurate.

PQ magazine is the one that is actually independant and they are never shy of giving ACCA, CIMA and AAT a kicking when they do something wrong.

The fact that you don't read independant coverage of the profession is probably why you have such a blinkered view.

We have read your answers and even though we may have disagreed with them we try to give constructive debate.

Unfortunately you read want you want, not what we write. I never said that the book was called anything other than basic accounting. What I said was that the contents are pure bookkeeping. I also refered to ACCA paper F3, financial accounting which is also pure bookkeeping. I also refered to the International federation of accountants who used to be called the institute of bookkeepers.

You have to live with the fact that at lower levels bookkeeping and accounting are used very much interchangably.

Unfortunately most of us on here cannot get out more as we have businesses to run. We can however chat to each other for support and information as this used to be a very freindly site.

gazal · Veteran Member

Foundation knowledge, evidence of competence plus experience is the key but it is getting more difficult to get someone to take you on without all of them. There is never a shortage of information available even from HMRC once practicing.

The way things are going self employment is the way forward as all recessions breed small enterprises and there has never been a shortage of clients as long as the gospel is preached in the right way.

semsley · Guru

RuthA wrote:

But to play devil's advocate, in the real world of work, you'd be able to look up something you weren't sure of. And if we're talking validity, does a 2 hour exam of any sort really show that you have competence to work as a bookkeeper?

I'm not suggesting any better alternatives, but I don't think there's much chance of high reliability or validity unless you're looking at an extensive course involing multiple assessments in different formats eg exam and work based assessment.

Ruth

Of course a 2 hour exam does not show that you have the competence to work as a book-keeper, however, it does give an indication that you have acquired the knowledge of the objectives of the course.

NVQs have multiple assessments in different formats but in the trade they are known as "not very qualified"

Personally I believe that a mixture of knowledge and experience is required to become a competent book-keeper because as we all know, real life businesses do not mirror scenarios in books.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Well, having read this I only have this advice...

Shaun - I'd follow the advice in your signature here

Kris

gazal · Veteran Member

Perhaps you should read back over the childish hostilty I received from my opening post on this string which you also chose to get involved in. I work very closely with the awarding bodies you seem to think you are an expert on. Its 2010 now not 1988 and a lot has changed whether you like it or not so we just have to go with it. And you have to accept that you are not an expert on every question that gets posted on this forum.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Well.... Having been on this forum since (almost) the beginning, I have to say I have never seen such personal and low blow remarks Gary.

You say how professional you are, but I'm sorry, you're not showing that here.

Shaun has been a very consistent and knowledgeable contributer here over the past while and I think you're taking a shocking attitude towards him.

We have up until now, self policed, and I'm sorry to be the one to suggest it, but perhaps it's time for the big guns to come out and have a word with you.

We are all entitled to voice our opinion, however 'out there' it may be. But this is a forum for professionals and when voicing said opinions we should be professional and courteous about it. Perhaps you should rethink how your posts are seen by others.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers Kris. I think that you may be right.

I saw this sort of change of attitude happen over on accounting web and it ruined the site for any newbies over there.

Up until now we've had the odd misunderstanding over here but it's always remained a freindly and open site.

gazal · Veteran Member

Its just like starting at a new school.
Lets gang up on the new kid. The coment at the bottom of Shauns posts is arrogant and I interpret it as anyone who disagrees with him is regarded as an idiot.
For the last time Shaun read what I have written about AAT being the best option for employment otherwise people reading your coments will not be taking you very seriously in future, unless they are in your gang of course. You seem to think people only want to hear what you have got to say and yet anyone with a brain will see that you discredit yourself by repeating the same thing over and over again. Being as this seems to be all you have got going on in your life it might be a good idea to allow someone else to have an educated up to date opinion and read what they have got to say before replying.

gazal · Veteran Member

Childish Shaun.
I answered Andrew correctly, you didnt because you didnt read his question but chose to waffle on and try to impress.

gazal · Veteran Member

Go back to the beginning where Andrew asked a question.
Now if you were newbies would you be impressed with the answer? I just put it into perspective. In my job I have to face the consequenses if I ill advise.
Perhaps you should start your own forum because this one is open. I might even get some of my colleagues to join.

AJR1712 · Member

Hi All,

Thank you for all the advice, there has been lots of good points and thoughts which has been useful and has got me looking on different sites to see what courses they offer and progression routes.

I think passions are running high, a mixture of the heat, football and also you all believing in what you say which in my mind is a good thing.

Perhaps we should leave this thread now and move on.....

Cheers for you thoughts

louis · Veteran Member

Shamus is correct with his advice. AAT is the route to go if you're looking for employment. I would also say AAT is valuable in self employment as many AAT qualified people choose to provide bookkeeping services. The AAT level 2 course is very much bookkeeping.

I was amaised when the ICB said they didn't accept AAT qualifications for exemptions. I told them AAT was a more prestigious qualification and covered much more than all three levels of the ICB put together. Until the ICB don't get off their high horse and make their qualifcation more transitional then they will continue to loose members.

-- Edited by louis on Monday 28th of June 2010 10:55:24 PM

gazal · Veteran Member

Hi Louis
I have never tried to discredit AAT apart from this bookeeping qualification which in my opinion is a mockery. Will IAB or ICB now introduce an accountancy qualification? hmm the ICB level 4 is close enough. It covers Personal and Business Tax, Management Accounting and drafting Financial Stetements but in a brief format. Sufficient as an add on though and great for self assessment.
Lets face it HMRC are running the show and its in everyones interest to comply, so awarding bodies are just trying to keep their members up to speed. And of course compete against one another.
I agree about prestige, AAT are easily the best in terms of professionalism and quality assurance but years behind in terms of inovation and technology. It still takes as long to get qualified a it did when they first started. Too many tests and exams at scheduled times.
IAB the same.
ICB have listened, sat back and observed. They have shown common sense in lots of ways.

The level 1 exams being taken from home. Level 1 will not be of any use so if they cheat they get caught out on Level 2. Levels 2 and 3 manual exams on demand using technology that has been used by professional bodies for years.

The Computerised exams can still be taken from home and although they have been been cheated the markers can identify when the tasks were completed although not who did it. These qualifications are actually quite easy to achieve so I suppose they have the attitude of what does it matter. I believe these are also going to be online at some stage.

In all they have made the carreer easliy obtainable in a short space of time and we all know that time is so very important to us in the 21st century.

So if someone who wants to be a bookkeeper asks, I will for now always say ICB because although in our experienced eye lacking in prestige, quality and to a degree professionalism they give inexperienced people an alternative to prolonged study resulting in achievement of goal when they want it which is now. And also more importantly for less money.

The statistics on course completion is much higher for ICB because people prefer to study at their own pace. The college timetable overlaps with very often with the pub, work, TV, and just about anything social resulting in missed attendance, no repeat classes so quit. Plus too many testes and exams, its too hard and they dont like to ask in case the rest of the class laugh at them.

The statistics on people in employment goes hands down to AAT
The statistic on practicing members which is more tempting these days goes to ICB

They have done their homework without doubt. Work from home as a professional bookkeper. Flexible hours and a good rate of pay.
80% of their members are female and some are happy with one client because it suits them to be doing something and bringing a little bit in.

The fact that people can obtain a qualification but never be able to use it for various reasons, one being that they lack social skills or the confidence to go out and get it has been recognised. I know someone who knows someone who has been asked to get involved with writing a bookkeeping business start up information and coaching package with them which no doubt will have Video bells and whistles, but if it works their membership and more importantly practising membershps will double. Even down to getting the clients using modern technology and methods.

Now isnt it a pity we didnt think of it first.

The shackles are off and the image is getting better. Lets face it, bookkeeprs were no better than clerks 15 years ago and this competition between awarding bodies is good for all bookkeepers and accountants who dont want to be seen as clerks behind a mountain of dusty books and ledgers.

I am glad they are around because it was pretty boring stuff years ago and my job is far more proactive now. I like change. I even did a couple of courses in psychology to help with my career and there were some very predictable things happening in this string which I thoroughly enjoyed so thanks to you all. In particular you Louis. Calm cool and collected. You should go far in life.

Its the best bit of action this forum has ever had and any newbies tuning in to it will have a pretty good idea what the next step should be towards what they want to achieve and how they achieve it.

And Shaun, there wouldnt be anyone on here with you if it were not for ICB so think yourself lucky lol

flimper · Member

I am a newbie and know virtually nothing. But I am more likely to listen to a well reasoned and polite answer than an agressive one.

louis · Veteran Member

Well Gazza, I have started a new thread explaining why ICB are not recorgnised by any other accounting body. They are not an accredited qualification. Please go to the link below and you will see all qualification bodies, except ICB. This UK accreditated body monitors all UK qualifications including medical.

http://www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk/awarding-body/awarding+body+directory.seo.aspx#A

semsley · Guru

gazal wrote:

Go back to the beginning where Andrew asked a question.
Now if you were newbies would you be impressed with the answer? I just put it into perspective. In my job I have to face the consequenses if I ill advise.
Perhaps you should start your own forum because this one is open. I might even get some of my colleagues to join.

Maybe your students also have to face the consequences of ill advice. smile

I'm also surprised you have recently "done" some psychology courses. I did mine when I did my PCGE, of course, that was many years ago perhaps things are done differently these days.

I was also involved in the FSSC consultation (including focus groups) for the review and revision of the NOS in Accounting and Payroll between 2008 and 2009 when the new standards were approved by UKCES.

FYI although called Accounting and Payroll standards the first units are to do with Book-keeping eg Record Income and Receipts, Make and Record Payments. You see accounting and book-keeping are interchangeable terms.

Rhianrach · Expert

gazal wrote:

Steve. I dont laugh at or ridicule people even if they deserve it but I do pitty the ignorant.

Go on tell me why I'm ignorant.

semsley · Guru

gazal wrote:

I have never tried to discredit AAT apart from this bookeeping qualification which in my opinion is a mockery. Will IAB or ICB now introduce an accountancy qualification? hmm the ICB level 4 is close enough. It covers Personal and Business Tax, Management Accounting and drafting Financial Stetements but in a brief format. Sufficient as an add on though and great for self assessment.

IAB Level 3 Diploma in Accounting and Advanced Book-keeping

IAB Level 4 Diploma in Accounting to International Standards

IAB Level 3 Diploma in Cost and Management Accounting

IAB Level 4 Diploma in Personal and Business Tax

All accredited on the NQF.

Rhianrach · Expert

gazal wrote:

In all they have made the carreer easliy obtainable in a short space of time and we all know that time is so very important to us in the 21st century.

Do you honestly think that a career where you are accountable for someones finances including the liabilities should be obtainable quickly and without prior experience or tutoring?

Anyone as you well know that starts a book-keeping practice without any knowledge of the pitfalls is asking for trouble really. One of the good things about the AAT although it be a slow progression according to you and atmittedly expensive, is the fact that they look into the legality of your actions.

When you talk further up about ill advising newbies maybe you would like to mention some of the pitfalls of having only the knowledge that the ICB can provide.

-- Edited by Rhianrach on Tuesday 29th of June 2010 04:23:25 PM