I think you miss the point a little louis. We all, in the field, know what the ICB qualifications are worth. We all know that if you want to progress in bookkeeping and accountancy ICB isn't really the way. But for self employed people it works. I mean, what are self employed bookkeepers looking for? The answer I think is to let their clients know they're legitimate. What better way than having an official looking crest on your paperwork and website. It was said before on this site that the ICB crest looks better than the IAB logo for this purpose, and I agree. It's all about image. And the first thing people are confronted with if they decided to check this out? A very official looking website with their patron His Royal Highness Prince Michael of Kent GCVO. How can that not look good?

The point I make is that it's horses for courses. If you want to progress in the field of course ICB wouldn't be your first stop, but if you want to become self employed in a world like bookkeeping and accountancy, where lets remember anyone can call themselves a bookkeeper or accountant with no knowledge or qualifications, ICB serves a purpose.

Personally I went the ICB route because of a pushy college salesman talking me out of AAT. That doesn't mean the learning ends there. But it does allow me to trade.

Kris

Watch that space with the qualifications. They are known as Ofqual now and we all know that Dr Philip Dunn is now involved in education and development at the ICB. Maybe lots of questions answered here.

Hi Attila,

your OK, Philip Dunn is ICAEW (and AAT (amongst many others)). Fingers crossed he'll also get recognition of the ICB qualification sorted out.

Then again, as he's got accountantancy qualifications do you think that he understands bookkeeping!

That was a joke Garry! Despite what the ICB tell us we all know that for the most part accountants understand bookkeeping very well and I have every confidence that Doctor Dunn will eventually resolve their current issues over recognition espechially as he seems to have a flag in almost all of the various accountancy camps. (I don't think that there is any link between him and the ACCA but as he's ICAEW why would there be!).




-- Edited by Shamus on Wednesday 30th of June 2010 01:20:36 AM

Morning Phillip,

it's my boys induction day at secondary school today so I'm working(!) from home.

That was pretty much why I joined up as well... Well, that and the fact that the ICB's logo looks good. (ok, I'm shallow!).

It sounds as though your roles are similar to mine. (dealing with auditors, bankers, management consultants, etc.... Not so much the legals for me).

I agree that in some instances the qualifications are not really necessary. They help you to get your foot in the door but once your there it's the knowledge rather than the qualifications that really matters.

I would say though that if you become a permanent member of staff in banking operations a serious qualification such as ACCA helps not just in the knowledge that you acquire but also to fit in with many of those you work with.

You must have noticed yourself that people from various disciplines tend to gravitate to each other.

Actually, there was a film a few years back. Planet of the Apes. I didn't much like the film (thought the 1960's version was better) but there was an interesting study made of the actors.

Some actors were dressed as Orangutans, others as Gorilla's and others as chimps. During breaks in filming the actors who had not met before filming all tended to congregate in groups of the same species no matter what age, race or religion they were in the real world. Strange but true.

Whats the old saying, birds of a feather flock together.

Must be why so many accountants marry other accountants!... Well, that and the hours that they have to put in other accountants are the only people that they ever get to meet.

Are you in sunny Brum today?

-- Edited by Shamus on Wednesday 30th of June 2010 08:29:05 AM

Maybe ICB will get their qualifications accredited soon but I am sure they will charge more for them so they will have to work MUCH harder on their recognition in the industry. If you do AAT ABC it is fairly quick and cheap to achieve, start your bookkkeeping business and progress further to AAT accountancy qual. is still a much better option with more future oportunities. Ok they don't give you MLR cover so it will cost you more than ICB membership but I am sure it still works out cheaper - or it will if ICB puts their prices up because of accreditation.

Hi Shaun,

further opinions on CFAB. I see now more the advantages. It is the first six modules of ACA but no restrictions so I do gain time before I move forward to ACA and before restrictions. If I start ACA and pass a few exams I can't apply for a training contract (you know-the we pay for your studies type) only for experienced jobs with PwC (that's still my dream job) and no experience and just a few ACA exams would not get me a job. I can pass 6 ACA exams and get CFAB without it being considered as ACA so I can prove some knowledge and understanding to the company and apply for a training contract.

Hi Shaun,

I am finding it great. I did need some time to get used to doing this level studies in a foreign language (English is a foreign language to me) but I am enjoying it lots.
I am just finishing the Accounting module and I really like the part of studies going into accounting standards and financial reporting in more details. I urgently have to start the Assurance module to have some knowledge to support my application to PwC but I am sure I will have to apply a few times before I can get a chance for an interview for a training contract...once a year if not this year than I must succed next year. Would be great to get some at least half decent salary and get studies payed for. The number of applicants for these training contracts to the big four is worrying... I can't even decide shall I apply for general assurance or public sector. You see I have this feeling there is less applicants for the public sector one, but if I want to do it or not, I don't know...
The only places open are in Southampton what I am not sure about either, I would prefer Gloucester or Birmingham but there is no open positions there for this year.

Let's see what happens and where all this will lead me.

Where are the exam centre rules?
I'll be phoning the ICB tomorrow to see about booking a Level 2 manual exam.

I also could not believe the hike in price - now £55!! Scandulous!

It would make sense to have some sort of simulation, otherwise how can you revise for an exam you do not know the style and content of? Its all been handled very badly really. This is one of the reasons of going to the Horsham event, to find out more.

P

Just had a look at the rules etc. Does anyone know how many questions and how long the exams are?

Be interesting to see the mocks from 5 July.

P

Pauline

In the last few moments I have received my confirmation to enable me to logon to book exams. They do state by the end of today, so I would wait until tomorrow at the earliest!

Unless its multiple choice, I do not like to read stuff on the screen and then have to work out examples, as I like to re-read pages as I'm working, will make things difficult!

P

Ah right, thanks Peasie. I will check my email when I get home then

Pauline

Got mine too. I won't be booking it today though. I like to re-read things as well. I will definitely be downloading a mock exam.

Pauline

I am not sure if I am going to do any of the extra exams, I pay enough already, it would be cheaper to go direct to HMRC for money laundering, exams are not recognised anyway.

Very cross at the price, it seems to me that now most bookkeepers are members they have a new money making venture.

I wish I joined the AAT and not bothered with this con of an outfit.

I will have to look into that, but as far as I know anyone can be a book-keeper or accountant without any formal qualifications.  It is a requirement that they are registered for money laundering, which can be done with HMRC at a cost of £120 per annum.  

Sounds like ICB are desperate to keep current members.

I think they are going to lose a few members over this.

I took a look at the aat site today, I am going to ring them Monday, if I have to take more exams at my age and at that price I am going to get some that are worth taking.

Hi Andrew,

I think that a lot of us joined the ICB on the same reasoning.

In my case like many others it was cheaper to join the ICB than get MLR directly from HMRC.

It used to be that even with the situation about the ICB not recognising the qualifications of other bodies you still only needed to pass two papers to get a practicing certificate.

Then it was three papers.

Then there is the seperation of Self Assessment and Payroll qualifications in order to provide those services.

Then there are the increased prices.

After an exchange between myself and the ICB in January I foolishly renewed my membership only for them to subsequently go back on everything suggested in their correspondence (such as CPD covering the additional exam requirements).

My practicing certificate will expire at the end of this month and I won't be renewing it, As such it invalidates the MLR cover which I won't need again now until Ocober when I'll either go direct to HMRC or transfer to the IAB who have already accepted me to join at FIAB level.

At least the IAB recognise ACCA and AAT qualifications and don't come out with statistics that they refuse to substantiate about people from other bodies being unable to pass ICB exams.

Of course, if you talk to anyone from the ICB they see things completely differently but that's the same with many organisations that they get so caught up in their own importance that they forget their very reason for existence.

This is not to say that there is anything wrong with the ICB qualification. It's actually a very good one and set at similar level to AAT fundamentals. Certainly if it were more widely recognised either by employers or for exemptions to qualifications such as AAT I would have no qualms about advising people to consider it as an option.

kjmcculloch wrote:

---

The answer I think is to let their clients know they're legitimate. What better way than having an official looking crest on your paperwork and website. It was said before on this site that the ICB crest looks better than the IAB logo for this purpose, and I agree. It's all about image. And the first thing people are confronted with if they decided to check this out? A very official looking website with their patron His Royal Highness Prince Michael of Kent GCVO. How can that not look good?

---

I agree with Kris.

I am already a Certified Accounting Technician (CAT) with ACCA as well as being a Fellow of the International Association of Bookkeepers.

I decided to leave the IAB because I felt their attitude to self-employment and MLR was very prescriptive, obstructive rather than supportive. I felt that the ICB had a better profile and probably a better image. I would imagine the membership of ICB is greater.

Certainly the required pass marks for ICB are much higher than IAB and I feel the exam questions are at least on a par (at least when I did the IAB).

Certainly ICB membership is no more expensive than IAB and the MLR fee for ICB seems to be less than that charged by IAB.

Why drop the IAB membership? For me, I liked what ICB offered, they seem to be much proactive as a professional body and that's worth a lot. The ICB certainly seems more supportive of its members, at least that's the impression I've had, but again, certainly more supportive than the IAB.

The one thing I did like about the IAB is the regional meetings, the hours for which counted towards on-going professional development. It would be good if the ICB organised something similar on a regional basis.

In terms of accreditation, the impression I get is that ICB is where IAB was about seven or eight years ago; but in terms of assessment methods, ICB have certainly gained an edge by offering online assessment. So, as Kris says, "it really is horses for courses".

If I'd kept my IAB membership having become a member of ICB, I wonder what IAB would have said if I then went with ICB for the MLR? I'm sure that they'd have said, "while you are a member of IAB and wanting to practice, you'll have to pay us a practice licence fee as well."

I'm quite happy with what ICB offers. I think their exams are of a good standard, with high pass mark requirements. They certainly give me the impression of being supportive of bookkeepers seeking self-employment and I like the image they present.

With regard to the mentioning of MLR requirements, the situation is simple: As a professional bookkeeper you will need to be registered. If you are not part of a 'supervisory body', then you'll need to register directly with HMRC. If you are a member of a supervisory body, you will register for MLR under that umbrella. Either way, you need to be registered for MLR.

I have still yet to apply for a practice licence, but will do so when I have completed my last two exams. MLR registration is a given and I will do that via ICB as it is a supervisory body recognised by the HMCE. I haven't checked the insurance liability side of things yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point there is an MLR stipulation as part of any insurance policy for professional bookkeepers.

As for all ICB members to be certified for both computer and manual bookkeeping by 2011, I think this is all part of maintaining standards. I've nearly completed all of ICB's exams in a 5-month period, so I don't thinking its asking a lot of other ICB members to make sure they have both the manual and computerised bookkeeping certifications.

GrahamG

 

-- Edited by GrahamG on Sunday 8th of August 2010 06:30:05 AM

-- Edited by GrahamG on Sunday 8th of August 2010 06:32:30 AM

Hi ICBUK

Many current members are unhappy with alot of changes made by the ICB i.e increased exam fees, more exams to qualify for membership, lack of co-operation with other accounting bodies therefore your qualifications not being recorgnised by them.  It would be a good opportunity to discuss alot of the issues raised on this forum with the ICB.

Thanks

AICB wrote:

---

For the moment I think they do, BUT I was more than a little shocked to learn that, in the matter of annual MLR returns, the Institute intends to fine members (£50, I think) who submit them late.

I have no issue with submitting MLR Returns, but I absolutely do have an issue about an organisation - which should only exist to support its members - assuming the devine right to fine members over activities being carried out at the behest of the Government.

---

Hi just noticed this,

The ICB was the last body to bring in a late fine. In June all supervisory bodies met and the ICB was informed it was the only body not to fine late renewals (never felt the need to as renewal rate is very very good <touch wood> ). All supervisory bodies agreed on £50.

That other bodies told the ICB that they were the only ones not to have implemented a "late fine" is still a pretty weak justification for doing so. 

A fine on someone's livelihood is a repressive act however you cut it. If it's imposed by the Government one has no choice - but by an Institute that exists to look after its members' interests?

AICB wrote:

---

A fine on someone's livelihood is a repressive act however you cut it. If it's imposed by the Government one has no choice - but by an Institute that exists to look after its members' interests?

---

Hi,

Well if the majority of members fill in the form on time, surely the fine does not matter. For the small amount who do not, they risk the supervision status of all the other members, plus added cost of ICB staff having to chase and write.

Therefore is it not in the interest of the members as a whole/majority?

James

 

Hi,

Don't apologise if you disagree. It is what the ICB is here for, to represent the bookkeeper.

Ok, so what solution would be suitable for members who do not comply with the new laws, cost money to chase, and danger the ICB's reputation and supervisory status?

James

ICBUK wrote:

---

Hi,


As far as our qualifications not being recognised: As far as I am aware, the AAT don't give any exemptions, apart from their ABC. Was there something in particular your referring to?

---

The above statement is incorrect.  AAT gives exemptions and they have now left it to the training providers to decide the level at which candidates start.

http://www.premiertraining.co.uk/courses/aat_diploma/documents/exemptionslist.pdf