Hi Remington,

We've already had some correspondence about this under topic "ICB Training - Advice Needed". Nice to hear how you are getting on. Sounds like the Ideal Schools course is helping you. Comments on the forum show not all home study courses are, lot of disappointed people out there looking for alternatives, so if you rate IS do let others know.

Having just passed L2M+C exams, I too am gunning for L3 now. I'm trying a quick route, drawing on (faded but still there) knowledge I gained doing AAT 7 years ago. I've already booked my L3M exam for a week on Monday (11 Oct), nothing like putting yourself under pressure!
I agree L3 is quite a step up from L2 and needs more preparation. My approach (for all exams) is to:
- print off the syllabus from ICB website, use it as a guide to what areas of study I need to concentrate on
- download and print a couple of past papers from ICB website, use these to see what sort of depth of knowledge is required (some text books go in to much more detail than you need)
- buy appropriate text book(s) and flag up the relevant sections I need to study
- do the study, textbook exercises and past paper questions until I am confident.

I bought Frank Wood's "Business Accounting 1" rather than Kaplan books as couldn't get any feedback on Kaplan. I was tempted as the books are described as being geared specifically towards ICB exam, so be interested to hear how you get on with them.

Be happy to help if you get stuck at any point (and vice versa), helping someone else is often a very good way to learn! You can post a question on the forum or email me direct. Good luck.

Phil

Hi,
I too have completed level 1 and 2 and I am doing level 3 with IDeal school...
I am finding level three much much harder than level 2 and its a real step up..
I don't seem to be able to take much in and keep getting things wrong... think I need to start at the beginning and work my way through it again....
I do agree its a lot harder though.
annemarie

Hi Margo,

Very interested in your comments. I just posted elsewhere this am saying I was disappointed with F Wood's "Business Account 1" and wishing I'd bought the Kaplan books. Yours is first feedback I've seen on kaplan books and they don't look too hot either.
ICB did tell me though that Kaplan is geared for the ICB exam. Re your specific queries:
- I don't quite understand the need for 3 accounts re FA dep'n. Sounds like the "Accounting Expense Account" might be for asset running costs, eg machinery maintenance which is charged to P+L and not related to deprec'n which is separately charged to P+L
- as far as I'm concerned, pref shares are part of capital and shown in financed-by section of BS, unlike debentues which are LTL and are deducted before calc total assets. Pref share/ord share div is paid out after net profit is calc'd, debenture interest is an expense in the pre-NP calcs. Re payment of div from reserves, my book refers me to another book and to be honest, this stuff is way beyond what you need for L3M exam.

At this level, there are often several ways of showing things/interpreting things in accounts. Thing is, for the purposes of getting through this exam, we only want to know the ICB examiner's way, right? When we start doing the job for real, that's when the theory is hardened up by experience in practice. Being overloaded with alternative approaches or excessive detail now is not helpful in preparing for this exam.

Case in point: I've had a problem with the downloaded L3M Oct 09 past paper, the answer given to part of Q4 was irrelevant so I emailed ICB for correct answer, they replied with what they thought was answer and their interpretation of gearing differed from mine so I posted query on the forum and got definitive answer from WELLA. I've passed it on to ICB for reference and asked if they can check it out with the examiners.

Only solution I can suggest is to discover what subjects need to concentrate on by reading syllabus. Then determine level of knowledge and specifics required for ICB exam by buying+downloading past papers (only £5 each) and doing mock exam (£10). I've already looked at two past papers (Jun+Oct 09), today I've just downloaded the Feb 10 past paper (that I think has only recently been added to the list) and bought the mock exam, which I'll take sometime next week as my actual exam date is rapidly approaching.

I find the online exam format friendlier with L1+2M exams, I'm hoping will apply at L3 so be interested to see how goes with online mock exam.

Annemarie, I've tended to think home study courses a bit over the top and unnecessary expense, but I'm beginning to think differently in view of confusion between text books. I think I would definitely recommend for someone stepping up to L3 with no prior knowledge beyond ICB Level 2.

Phil

-- Edited by PhilMcTankup on Saturday 2nd of October 2010 11:37:58 AM

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your comments They are much appreciated. The way you approached the exams makes a lot of sense and I will be taking your advice. 

I had also hoped that the ICB member on this form would have posted to clarify this from ICB's perspective (He was away for a while  - so maybe he has not seen it yet).


In relation to the level 3 manal exam  - is there a lot of typing involved (e.g explain this or define that etc ) or is it mostly multiple choice and filling in figures in boxes ? Is the time adequate? 

Hi All,

Just had a quick read before my lunch;

Excellent feedback, glad people are liking the new online papers.

• The following on or recurring error, where you make an error which affects your work further down the paper, has always been marked down, for each question.
  
  Main reason for this is that if you make a small mistake it could become a very large one, especially with VAT or something, and at the end of the day Bookkeepers need to be bang on. So we can't give you 99% if your £100k off on VAT. It is a tough call but it was decided at a members council meeting a few years ago.
  
• The formating of answers should not matter, ICB has its own custom built software which works out what you are trying to say, no matter what format you type the answer (eg: 3000, £3000, £3,000, £3,000.00 etc)
  
• ICB do not accredit Frank Woods books, so I would always recommend Kaplan or Peter Marshall text books which are.
• When studying do use the syllabus and past papers, but remember your not just trying to pass a test, your preparing yourself for work or clients. Past papers can't cover all the syllabus and every now and then they change what bits they cover.

I am glad the reports are helping (my idea )  and yes the online papers do remove a lot of the formatting and layout worries.

Hope this helps

Hi Phil,

The negatives problem is that few people have entered a value in the balance sheet liabilities, for example 'Less Creditors', in brackets.

The computer will see this as a double negative. If it is listed as Less Creditors, putting a negative figure in would mean they owe you.

So for things like Profit/Loss or Cash in Bank you could use brackets if it is a loss or overdraft.

Just to be clear the system will accept negatives as numbers in brackets, a minus sign or O/D e.g:
(£20)
-£20
£20 O/D

It will format your numbers as you save, add a .00 and remove £ sign etc. If it cannot understand what you have put e.g. '£3,000 (inc VAT)', it will tell you. It won't change positives to negatives, maybe might have accidently hit the - sign?

On your point about home learning colleges, any in particular?

The ICB keeps a firm eye on all training providers. The system here flags any provider that falls below the high standards the ICB sets.

There is a monthly review of examination results. Any complaints received are dealt with quickly and resolved (assuming they are proper complaints).

There is also an annual meeting with the providers, and quite often other meetings held.

Nearly all of the tutors are ICB Members (New ICB policy coming into effect next year is that all tutors should be members), so they get the newsletter, attend members meetings, and probably on this forum etc.

Ah, that was while I was away.

Reading it though seems the problems with the actual training are the AAT courses, although I cannot comment as we are not involved with that.

Home Learning College, as far as I am aware, offer unlimited telephone tutoring over 2 years, which is more than some of the others. They also include the software, ICB registration and examination fees. This makes them more expencive than those who don't include fees or software, and may only have email tutoring.

If you call our course support line you would be advised that if you don't need a full time tutor, either because of experience or not available during the day, the better plan is to go for another provider who offers email tutoring, or a 6 month course rather than 2 years etc.

All Home Learning College bookkeeping tutors are ICB members, having passed the subject they are teaching. Their results are consistently above the national average.

And with regards to the AAT course being expencive, others have posted on this forum saying it is now over £500 to do the AAT examinations, so comparing their prices to a college that does not include software or examination fees you have to take this into account.

I personally always say, ring around before buying, not just with courses.

For a list of accredited training providers: www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Where_To_Study

Hope this helps

Hi John,

I don't know much about their sales techniques, I thought they were doing more online now. We are meeting with them later this month I will put this topic on the agenda.

Home Learning College were the first to only hire ICB members as tutors, so the students could talk to someone who has done the course and the exams. Also they could meet them in person at ICB meetings.

I think that has gone a long way towards them being nominated by the students for more awards than any other provider.

Oh dear that's not good.

We do keep an eye on them, sometimes we do get stories like that but because they rarely lead to a sale, they tend to learn their lesson.

Although, as far as I am aware, originally HMRC were not going to be a supervisory body. It was only when the professional bodies said they didn't want all the bookkeepers/accountants because they had standards to be met, that the Treasury needed a 'catch all net' for those who could not pass examinations.

Hi John,

Are you an ex HLC student who has had a bad experience?  You seem to have registered here 2 days ago and just posting negative stuff.

The link is a little daft, it is not comparing like for like:

The sage comparason, Emagister £80 + VAT is for a 2 hour workshop, not a course. HLC include exam fees, registration fees, software, tutoring, its a 2 year course.

AAT comparason, Premier Training £199 is for one level, no fees included. HLC is for all 3 levels (I think), includes fees (other posts on this forum have pointed out AAT now costs over £500 + admin fees) and the software.

Think I need more information that what is listed on that site before I agree with it.

Hi,

Just had a read of that site on my lunch, or rather the comments left by others. I am glad to say there are no comments from ICB course students (or atleast no one mentions they are studying ICB), seems to be AAT.

However I will still add it to the discussions for the meeting.

The price comparason though is rather unfair.

Good point John about the debate, sorry to hear your wife had problem with them, but I think debates should be fair, and websites that claim HLC's costs are only £80 obviously have not done their research.

Didn't realise this was another HLC thread. James, if you think HLC only rip off AAT students you are sadly mistaken. They were a nightmare to deal with. The support (from Stow College) was non existent, the wouldnt let me sit the ICB exam for months as I hadn't completed one of their assessments, they eventually admitted that the assessment I hadn't done didn't, in fact, exist.

I would NEVER go near them and I have always been shocked that ICB would choose to be linked to HLC.

No My complaint is about HLC, that's who I bought the course from, tha'ts who my contract is with. Saying anything else is like buying a fridge from curry's and it breaking and them saying you need to speak to the manufacturer, that's not the legal stance.

I get to the stage where I think ICB are going the right way then I read things like this which quite honestly anger me. ICB are saying they care more about money than their members. HLC rip people off, pressure sell and lie to achieve sales and ICB don't care. HLC deserve to end up on BBC rouge traders for their sales techniques.



-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Tuesday 2nd of November 2010 10:47:11 AM

Although stow did the course, HLC were responsible. They employ the salesman I am complaining about. If they outsource the support that is not my concern, but they are still responsible.

Ok, you're going to need to give me an example of these expensive courses then, because I've yet to see one.

I say ICB care more about money as in your comments that is what comes through clearly, HLC provide some 300-400 students per month. Are you telling me ICB don't get their fees? Where would that income come from if not from HLC?

Yes. I was told I had to sign there and then to get the deal. He phoned his manager to try to get it cheaper. He told me about the fantastic support- a lie.

Frankly it upsets me to see you defending this shower.

Kris

You are supposed to get a 2 year tutor support with HLC, but i assure everybody on here this is not the case, your emails can take up to 2 weeks to be answered, the work books are full of errors, my boss doctered one of my assignments which i sent to be marked, and it came back to me with an A grade, i had doubts that my assignments were not being marked properely. The exam centres that HLC are sending you to also have untrained people there who did not know what to do with our exam papers the list goes on and on.  And if James thinks there are other training providers that are more expensive than HLC. Trust me the amount HLC are charging for their AAT courses what you are getting for the price is total rubbish. I think it is totally disgusting what they are getting away with, when people are working hard to pay off these huge amounts for something that justs stresses you out.  I think of lot of the accreditated bookkeeping people are turning a blind eye to this. Probarly a lot of people have passed with HLC, but it is because they have bought additional material to help them pass and done the course on their own back.

 'keep smilling James'

Sally-Anne did you do an ICB course or an AAT course?

I ask because HLC is split into faculties, they (as I understand it) control the sales-marking-tutoring etc.

The faculty for the ICB is made up of ICB members, and gets a lot of praise.

Yeah, HLC are great. At least this of us who have paid our hard earned money wont buy that nonsense.

Lets not forget who has had first hand experience us, or you.

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Tuesday 2nd of November 2010 02:24:41 PM

but that'll be AAT. Sally-anne. Their ICB section is perfect. 

It doesn't help when supposed professional bodies are backing these people over their own members. Who are new students going to look to? By the time they realise it's too late.

Kris

The sales person who came to my house said I would get a full version of Sage, I told her I did not want the Sage package, because I had already got the full version of Sage, she then went on to say HLC's Sage was made by the AAT, another lie, AAT have got nothing to do with Sage, when i received the Sage package it was a 180 day version, another blatant lie.

It's okay James I just wanted to warn people about HLC's pushy sales people and what you do not get for your money, yes I have put in a complaint to the AAT and also trading standards, and i do know for a fact that i am not the only person who is going down this path.

James,

You said you were going to add the rediculous sales techniques of HLC to your learning providers meeting. Did you get a response?

Obviously i am not alone in my feelings about and experience with HLC.

Guys your starting to wear me out  I am supposed to be on your side

John Boy - they sent two tutors, the board contact we have was called to a last minute meeting of some sort. We are meeting them again in a couple of months.

Kris - OK, I hear what you are saying. Since you bought the course things have changed, you were not the only one with the kind of complaints you were having, and since the changes we have not had anymore.

Kris: 'Just how much do ICB earn off the back of HLC?' You are the ICB, the ICB is not for profit. There are no shareholders making money, I have said this before.

If the ICB receives £10, it spends £10 on the members somehow.

However, I do not have access to those figures, but 300 x £25 or £45.