ICB Level 4 - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

RuthA · Senior Member

ICB Level 4

Wella · Expert

Hi Ruth

This is definately a qualification I will go for.

There is little info at the moment as to format. On the ICB website it is a little confusing as it it says it is Homebased-OnLine exam but when you follow the links through it says it is a homebased assignment. It lists all the home based assignments and only lists level I as a timed online exam, all the others are listed as homebased assignments, including the level IV. However, James seems to think it will be a centre based timed exam.

It also appears there may be three seperate assignments to the qualification. If home based they will be a £30 each (going by Level III), if centre based they could be £75 each

Bill

ADAS · Guru

Hi Ruth,

I'm waiting to see at the moment, if it leads to an expansion in the services we can offer, then I'll do it. It's bascially another form of CPD then perhaps not unless it becomes compulsory.

I'm not sure how it will affect awards either, I don't want this to read as glib but will those who pass level 4 still be classed as MICB?

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

I have opened a topic on this earlier in the month...

it follows GAAP and the move is on to IFRS, so will it be good enough??

Also, if its more akin to accoutany territory, would it not be simpler to take AAT or something if interested in going down that route.

Just so you know, I would be interested in it so long as its not going to be out of date by the time you finish it - also not sure how you study it, nor the Legal Bookkeeper Level III paper?

P

ICBUK · Guru

Hello,

IFRS is not implemented in the UK SME yet (date is set as financial year 2012), even when it is I bet companies will stick with GAAP for a while.

You can get free IFRS material if you want to study it (or if you speak Russian you could get it from ICB Russia).

It is new, and the ICB is listening to feedback. There is an advisory council meeting next week which I am on, so if you have any questions fire them this way, or email.

Currently the option is to either have it as just CPD (so online testing), or make it a route into ACCA ICAEW etc etc (centre based testing).

Either way it will extend the services you can offer.

attilabenko · Guru

Hi James,

ICAEW offering IFRSSME learning and assignment with a certificate at the end what I am taking in a couple of weeks time. Before it gets regulated within ICB I assume I can offer it (or not?) but what is going to happen later, will I have to take ICB exam,too?

To clarify I believe SMEs will have the choice of full IFRS or IFRSSME but most of them will probably will go for IFRSSME as it is only two hundred and so pages standard not like full IFRS with thousands of pages and updates. Plus I believe SMEs will even have the choice for a while if they want to stick to FRSSE...

For everybody who is interested link to the full standards of IFRS/IFRSSME on the IASB website:
http://eifrs.iasb.org/eifrs/PDFArchive?id=118

And link to their free training modules on IFRSSSME:
http://www.ifrs.org/IFRS+for+SMEs/Training+modules.htm

I think you have to register to get access but it is free.

-- Edited by attilabenko on Friday 15th of October 2010 10:29:49 AM

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

James

I thought ICB exams would not be recognised due to ICB not being part of OFQWAL or whatever its called, and this was due to ICB not wanting to lower standards etc by reducing the pass mark and the like.

So my question is, how would that change for Level IV and not the others?

I think CPD is an ok route for me as I'm not looking at going down the accountant route as I see no need, therefore wither way is good for me, but I guess CPD would be cheaper??

Some idea on learning materials would be good to know also. I was just worried that by learning GAAP for this exam/test would not be looking to the future enough but I guess it all depends on how long it would take ot get the qual.

What extra services would we be able to offer and who would recognise them?

P

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

Well ICB is OfQual registered, it just chooses not to put any qualifications through (afaik).

However, ICB does get some exemptions from the CAT. AAT don't normally give any exemptions from their Level 3 and 4, until OfQual forced them to. IAB - I know some of our (ex) members have been granted full membership based on their ICB qualifications.

Course text books will be available, meeting with publisher next week to approve etc.

I would guess UK GAAP is going to be around for a few years yet, were you at last years ICB conference with the IASB talking about it?

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

James

No was unable to attend any conferences last year so missed out. I can only go by what I pick up on comments made on the forums really.

So are you saying that we should see more exemptions from other bodies because of OfQual intervention - that sounds like a good thing and makes the ICB exams a much better stepping stone to the future, all for that.

P

ADAS · Guru

BackOfficeGroup wrote:
What extra services would we be able to offer and who would recognise them?

There doesn't seem to be much info relating to this at moment, I know there's plenty here who'd appreciate a reply.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

The Level 4 has been discussed at members meetings for over a year now, and the feeling the ICB received was it would be more of a stepping stone to accountancy.

However, since that news article has been released it seems some would rather stay as a bookkeeper, but have the extra cover and support for these services.

Currently discussions with education department, membership department, advisory council, insurance providers etc etc are thinking of a new level of membership and what exactly this would cover (and be called).

It would mean you could offer more business tax, personal tax (it would probably include self assessments), management accounting.

However, I am not in either of the membership or education departments, and so will get them to put something on the web.

Are there any extra services you offer that you would like to be covered by ICB that are not?

Wella · Expert

The only thing that springs to mind are CT returns for ltd companies that are not required to file audited accounts.

Having invested my time and money in adding the self assessment exam to my portfolio (which currently does not carry a qualification) and having looked at the sylabus, how about a part exemption.

Bill

ADAS · Guru

ICBUK wrote:

Are there any extra services you offer that you would like to be covered by ICB that are not?

Sorry James, I've not been able to make any member meetings, though I certainly hope to next year. I only joined in July so I've missed any discussions.

I think CT, Charity Accounts (with an income < £250k), Annual returns and published accounts to the audited threshold would be my personal ambition.

Or to put it another way - anything I'm not restricted from doing by law. Ideally I'd like the ICB syllabus aligned with statute. I know I can "jump ship" and go down the AAT route but I'd rather not have to.

A massive plus for me and if I'm honest the whole reason I joined was the fact I could complete the exams on demand.

Wella · Expert

Add Tony's ideas to my wish list

Bill

RuthA · Senior Member

And mine!!

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Bill

I too am concerned (again!!!) that they keep moving the goal posts.

I got my comp exams only to be told I had to get the manual ones. I got the payroll only to be told I had to pay extra to use my qual. I got self assesment now only to be told it may be included in the new Level 4 qual - will it never end?

I have no objections to furthering my knowledge BUT I do not want to go to all the expense of taking exams only to be told they are worthless unless......

Thats why I left ACCA back in 1992 or whatever. Deja vu springs to mind.

P

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Philip,

Well the manual exams was a goal post move biggrin

, but it has been talked about for 3 years between the members, and last year at the conference the members were unanimous in voting for the change.

But the payroll support has been £15 per year (brilliant value if you ask me) since about 2005.

The Self Assessment being included in Level 4 wont affect you as such, as you just wont do that module as you have already passed it.

The Level 4 is optional and was brought about because many members wanted it.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

James

Thanks for that. I get hot under the collar when these things are raised as I've had my fingers burnt before!! Don't get me wrong, I think the changes are for the good and not having been to the conferences or been a member prior to taking the exams, I would not have been aware of the talks.

If Level 4 is on a module basis, so long as you can offer the services on that module before you have passed them all, all will be fine.

I guess the payroll charge was hard to find, as I never noticed it until after I had passed the exams and was told it costs more each year!! I still feel the ICB has a long way to go on its clear and concise level of communication via the website in relation to membership and charges. (although have not been on for a few weeks!)

P

ICBUK · Guru

Philip,

Yes the Self Assessment is separate so you can offer that without the rest of the Level 4.

You can get details of membership charges here: http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Membership/Fee%20Structure

Yes you are correct, comunication has been hard these last couple of years due to lots of things getting in the way.

The ICB has now appointed a comunications manager who is the one responsible for the change on the homepage, members area and Twitter / Facebook (see my signature) so you should see a few changes to the website.

Peasie · Expert

ICBUK wrote:
so you should see a few changes to the website.

Is it possible to have a page on the website stating which pages have changed where these changes are substantial?

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Peasie,

Good idea, I will pass it on.

Julies bookkeeping · Veteran Member

"Well the manual exams was a goal post move , but it has been talked about for 3 years between the members, and last year at the conference the members were unanimous in voting for the change".

I go to the CPD courses, I do not go to the conference as it is to expensive for me and kids at that age where they could be left but home would be used as a teenage base, but untill the changes were announced I had not heard this in the time I have been a member, infact I was told that I would not have to worry about exams again after I took the payroll exam.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Julie,

Just had a quick look at your record and you have been with the ICB for some years, and seem very active with local events, HMRC etc.

Try calling the ICB to discuss possible exemptions based on your experience, so you don't have to sit the centre examination.

The new structure should have been talked about in the meeting you attended last year as they were planning the announcement at the conference, however, some meetings to spur off on another subject and skip parts due to time.

Peasie · Expert

BackOfficeGroup wrote:
I guess the payroll charge was hard to find, as I never noticed it until after I had passed the exams and was told it costs more each year!!

What Payroll Charge?

You mean if I pass my exam I still have to pay more money to be able to offer this service? This is ridiculous. I've saw a payroll support charge of £15 - I had always assumed this was optional and was a sort of advice line for those that may require it.

If they were clear and open about their charges I doubt people would still opt for ICB - maybe that's why they are hidden and you find out about these things later.

ADAS · Guru

Peasie,

When I passed payroll recently and upgraded my membership and had to pay for the extra letters but didn't have to pay for the payroll support.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

The Additional letters PM.Dip fee is the same as the support, its £15 per year, which is extreamly good value considering most other support packages cost more than that per month.

The ICB is sorting its structure out, as currently there are too many options and variables.

The new fee structure page should be easier to understand, with the main membership titles, with the Payroll support package (additional letters included).

Peasie · Expert

What is the Payroll Support then?
What if I don't want to use the extra letters and I just want to be able to offer Payroll?
Do I have to pay the £15 to use the letters to say I have passed the exam? The only people that I am sitting the exam for is ICB - I couldn't care less if anyone else knew I had passed the exam.

ADAS · Guru

ICBUK wrote:

The ICB is sorting its structure out, as currently there are too many options and variables.

Apologies Peasie, I just checked with ICB and I was charged the £15 plus and apportionment of nexts years fee to bring my upgrades into line.

I did specifically ask the question about the support fee, as I thought from the web-site this was payable if you had a practising cerficate in addition to the Pm Dip upgrade. But perhaps that's just me.

Wella · Expert

Hi Peasie

My understanding is that the use of letters after your name is optional, you have proved your compitence by passing the exam. You are still a member but can only call yourself Associate or Member, without the reference to your examinations.

Bill

semsley · Guru

I'm soooooo glad I'm a member of IAB which just has fees for Student, Associate, Member and Fellow and when you apply for your practising certificate you tick on the form the work you will be carrying out rather than being prescribed from certain items.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Hi Sheila,

What are the fees for IAB. I am a practising member of ICB, but you may have noticed from some of the conversations recently I'm getting increasingly annoyed with them, its money, money, money. I may jump ship when my membership expires.

Kris

semsley · Guru

It's £65 for an Associate, £80 for a Member and £88 for a Fellow. There's a one off £25 fee for a first timer Plus £76.86 for certificate of compliance for MLR. Level of membership depends on qualification and/or experience confirmed by references.

Course you don't have the fancy logo!!!!

-- Edited by semsley on Thursday 4th of November 2010 09:24:48 PM

ICBUK · Guru

Hi all,

So we are actually slightly cheaper than the IAB!! (MIAB with MLR = £156.86 MICB with MLR = £156) unless you also want the Payroll support so that would be an extra £15.

However, your insurance with IAB does cost more, as Bob said on another post he would save quite a bit with ICB.

Semsley does that include a Practice Certificate fee?

The ICB moved with industry back in 2003 to allow people who had only done a Sage course to join in membership and setup as a bookkeeper.

However, recently industry and members have pointed out this is not enough so the ICB is changing its structure.

The new structure will be same as IAB.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Hi Sheila,

Thanks for that, so as James says ICB are a whole 86 pence cheaper. What kind of service do you receive from IAB, as obviously price is not everything.

Kris

semsley · Guru

ICBUK wrote:

Semsley does that include a Practice Certificate fee?

Yes

semsley · Guru

kjmcculloch wrote:

Hi Sheila,

Thanks for that, so as James says ICB are a whole 86 pence cheaper. What kind of service do you receive from IAB, as obviously price is not everything.

Kris

Newsletters, preferential rates on various things, online CPD courses, regional seminars, technical helpline, access to Wolters Kluwer, etc

kjmcculloch · Guru

Are the IAB good to deal with? I mean in terms of their staff, are they knowledgeable and polite?

Kris

semsley · Guru

Can't answer that as I've never telephone. Dealings via email always friendly and promptly answered.