ICB - some interesting reading - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch · Guru

ICB - some interesting reading

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Kris,

Not sure how to respond to this, I think you are going out of your way to try and tarnish the ICB which is not going to happen.

The ICB has offices within Wolverton Park, and does not hide this fact as you can quite clearly see ICB office on Google maps. Also quite a few meetings have been held here, with members as well.

If anyone asked me I would have quite produdly said Garry was my father, and that is how I came to join the ICB nearly 10 years ago now. Infact, if I attend meetings with Garry he usually introduces me as such.

You can quite clearly view who is involved in the ICB here: http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/About%20Us/Who's%20who.

The virtual office in London is mainly due for overseas (they don't understand Hampshire biggrin

) but also the ICB receives discounts on meeting rooms there and quite often it is better to have meetings in London than to make people travel out.

Coincidentally I am going to view offices in London right now as we are expanding beyond the offices we have at Wolverton Park.

Kris I am unsure why you keep posting these odd messages. Before when you gave the impression you were un happy with the ICB I called to ask if there was anything else the ICB could be doing. You responded stating you were happy, and had renewed your membership.

What is it you hope to gain? I registered the ICB on this forum to help people with questions about the industry, but your posts seem to be taking up quite a bit of my time.

People seem to be ignoring your posts on here, but instead ringing the ICB to talk about them. Maybe if there are other ICB members on here they should post their thoughts on the ICB and its services etc, as I think Kris just has a 'bee in his bonnet', but maybe others on here agree with him?

kjmcculloch · Guru

James, you really didn't need to respond at all.

I simply post my views, my issue is not with the ICB but rather with the way you post in reply to me and the smoke and mirrors you surround the ICB in. You say it's for the benefit of the members, but wont share the accounts. It just makes me wonder. Call me curious.

I just find it interesting that something for members requires such an expensive house for offices.

Your recollection of the telephone conversation we had differs to mine. I had no dealing with the ICB before that. I was a member paid my fees got my MLR cover that was it. I voiced an opinion on how ICB had not added a mock exam when they said they would and received a personal call from you. As I remember you put my back up straight away with your tone which I can only describe as aggressive. I have not renewed my membership since then. I also remember you ending the call by telling me if I wasn't happy to go to the IAB.

This was one of the few very helpful business forums, however there are now a number of people who are only here for their own ends. They constantly advertise and push their services at every opportunity, and provide little general help to other members.

I'm surprised people are ringing the ICB to moan about my posts as my web address (with email and contact form) and phone number can be found on each and every one of my posts. and a few people have contacted me. Mainly to agree with me but fear doing it publicly incase the ICB come down on them like the sword of Damocles for having the nerve to harbour opinions which differ from the ICB's own.

Personally I am happy to voice my own, HRA protected, views. This is not to tarnish the reputation of the ICB as you suggest but rather to shine a bit of light on it and stimulate discussion and debate as you have an understandably one sided view of the institute and refuse to acknowledge that it may have some small failings.

Kris

AICB · Senior Member

A disinterested comment from an ordinary Forum user.
ICB with an accommodation address in the capital? ICB a family firm? Crumbs ...
With every respect to you, it's beginning to look like you've got some axe to grind - but what it is, is not clear. A private correspondence with ICB might be better?

kjmcculloch · Guru

Did you know the information I posted. As a member I didn't.

No axe, no politics, just interesting as the title says, plus with the HLC conversation it makes more sense if they have a £1500 weekly rent to pay why they want to keep HLC on side.

To be honest if James last conversation with me is anything to go by I'd rather not.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Thursday 25th of November 2010 11:34:24 PM

ICBUK · Guru

Smoke and mirrors?

The Wolverton Park address is on the ICB Letterhead, amongst other places.

Some of the ICB employees are members, the ICB also subcontracts to ICB members so they have been to Wolverton for meetings, interviews etc. Many other members have been there for various reasons. There have been council meetings, workgroup meetings etc.

Wolverton has even hosted examinations.

If you look at the link you provided, or just Google Wolverton Park, you will see the ICB is not the only business there. However, even if it was, £1,500 weekly rent for an Institute's headquarters is not unheard of.

I think your just a little paranoid Kris.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Thanks for your indepth psychological profiling James. But that doesn't change my beliefs nor the first impressions gained from the first person I really spoke to at ICB, yourself.

Kris

lexysmith · Member

Might I suggest that if you haven't renewed your membership with ICB, you might want to remove their logo and your ICB practice number from your website?

I have always been aware of the family connections, I think its an asset.

Maybe its time to drop the sarcastic vitriol.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Hi Alex,

As I said in my first post I didn't know this information and found it interesting.

I'm glad you did know and find it an asset rather than nepotism.

I will not be removing the ICB logo in the near future as my membership is still current.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

Hi Kris,

I find this interesting.

To be honest, I had assumed the ICB would be like the AAT, registered as a charity not a commercial organisation looking to make profit from a brand and leveraging member relationships.

We will be calling around the UK this year and will be speaking to members so it will be interesting to have some conversations as see what members think. But, next week I will be going back to a few people we spoke with when we launched Crunchers who were given conflicting messages from the ICB about how to structure a bookkeeping business.

Not only does this now make sense but so does the ICB launching a bookkeeping system provided by IRIS!

I may set my own bookkeeping institute up, I am sure we can design a create a traditional looking logo and a syllabus.

Bob

Rhianrach · Expert

kjmcculloch wrote:

James, I know you haven't hidden it, but you never told us Gary was related to you. Or the communications director Ami Copeland was Ami Carter before she married Jordan Copeland.

3 carters at the top of the ICB, coincidence?

Or that 1 Northumberland Avenue is just a Regus virtual office.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Thursday 25th of November 2010 11:30:33 AM

Who's Gary and who are the Carters Kris?

I like Bob find this interesting for exactly the same reasons.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Sorry, I meant Garry. Garry Carter is the Chief Executive of ICB. James Carter who has said he's Garry's son is the IT Director. Ami Copeland nee Carter is Communications Director.

Like Bob I assumed it wasn't a commercial venture. It appears to be a company limited by guarantee.

As a member, Bob, I didn't know all of this until recently. As James said, I may be paranoid, but having spent years in the third sector I get uneasy when so many members of one family make up a board. Actually many voluntary sector groups and charities have a section in their constitution or articles of association to specifically prevent this.

Personally I wouldn't mind if I had known, I buy shopping from Tesco, I bank with RBS etc. I don't mind people making a profit, what I object to is the pretence of being something you are not.

I also agree with you Bob that a lot of the pieces fall into place when you realise the setup.

And actually Bob, I do not for one minute doubt you will actually look into setting something like this up, if you do be sure to let us know.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Saturday 27th of November 2010 03:30:37 PM

ICBUK · Guru

My this post is getting rather odd.

kjmcculloch wrote:
Personally I wouldn't mind if I had known

Kris, as said before the Wolverton Park address is almost everywhere, it is on the letterhead that welcomed you into membership. There is a who's who on the website that lists almost everyone who is involved with the ICB. (granted it doesn't say 'oh by the way 2 of them are related to the CEO')

BobHarper wrote:
To be honest, I had assumed the ICB would be like the AAT, registered as a charity not a commercial organisation looking to make profit

The ICB is not a commercial organisation, it is a Not For Profit organisation, same setup as the IAB etc.

BobHarper wrote:
I will be going back to a few people we spoke with when we launched Crunchers who were given conflicting messages from the ICB about how to structure a bookkeeping business

Would you like to give more information? Advice on how to startup always differs, on this forum when someone asks the question many people give their input, some even conflict with others.

The ICB is no different, those people who give advice are staff or members who either are running their own business, or have done in the past. So the same as this forum only you get to talk to someone on the phone.

kjmcculloch · Guru

James, I'm glad nepotism doesn't bother you, but I am extremely uneasy with it.

You said earlier that I probably think there are shareholders getting rich off the back of members, I don't. But are you willing to tell us what you get off the back of members? On one hand it is for the benefit of member and on the other you wont publish financial statements to the membership.

There's also a slight difference between the membership paying for a head office to them paying for the chief executives home.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch on Monday 29th of November 2010 03:50:11 PM

ICBUK · Guru

Kris you are getting quite offensive and personal and I do not like it.

However, in case others are reading this:

You claim you did not know about the Wolverton Park address, yet you have sent things to this address at least 3 times, and have received things from this address, with it on the letterhead and envelope at least 11 times, since the very start of your registration.

No I am not going to give you my personal financials (no other body does this for direcotors), however, I have a fixed salary and do not take a bonus or overtime. In 2009 the AAT directors earnt between £94,000 to £104,000. I get no where near that, not even half.

Kris I am unsure why you have begun this tirade of attacks, or negative comments, on a body I belive has supported you better than most. Prehaps, like others have suggested, you write to the ICB rather than making a public argument. Just for your information nether Garry, Ami or myself deal with complaints, unless it is serious in which case Garry or I might get involved.

BobHarper · Guru

@James - putting aside the start-up advice would you mind sharing why the ICB is a not for profit rather than a charity?
It would also be good to understand why a body like the ICB is offering software. I cannot square that with the Institutes objectives.

kjmcculloch · Guru

James, this is not personal. You suggest that the ICB is run for the members with no one making a profit from it but for some strange reason refuse to share the financial accounts. Seems a bit strange to me to be so secretive about something which you suggest belongs to the membership.

Thanks for sharing the AAT figure, but they don't bother me at all as I'm not a member of the AAT.

I am not denying knowing about Wolverton Park, only knowing exactly what it was (i.e. a home for the Chief Exec)

This is not a complaint, therefore I see no reason to write to you, it was simply a post providing information that I didn't know and it appears others did not know either. I also feel that you are choosing to answer the questions you like with a spin, rather than the questions which are of importance. I cannot believe that you would be any more forthcoming if I wrote to you therefore see it as a fairly pointless exercise.

I'm not sure what you mean by supported me better than others. Are you suggesting that all members get a varying level of service and my level has been higher than others. Or are you suggesting you support me better than other professional bodies, which I would hope so as I don't pay them fees.

This is far from a tirade of abuse, I have done nothing other than state facts, facts which you have not chosen to dispute. Neither is this a personal attack, rather a fact finding mission. You suggest that the information is prominently displayed on your website, therefore you are not trying to hide it, yet you appear to become annoyed when I posted it here. This I do not understand.

So, who else uses Wolverton Park?
What are the rental costs?
Is it used as a residence for the Chief Executive?
What are directors paid in the ICB?

I doubt whether you will answer these questions, but if, as you say, it is truly an organisation solely for the benefit of it's membership what have you to hide?

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

Nepotisim (an unjustified favoritism to a family member) is a personal insult. I actually got involved with the ICB because of the Head of Education, not Garry (infact working with family members actualy was a con rather than a pro smile

)

Wolverton Park is aprox 1,000 acres of houses, buildings, barns, stables, farms and fields sub let out to various businesses and individuals. Garry does live in Wolverton Park, about a year after he moved we decided to move the ICB headquarters here for many reasons, mainly the warehouse we had in Stokenchurch was no longer feasable, and the ICB wanted to employ an ICB member it had been working alongside for many years, but she did not want to move to Stokenchurch. So it all worked out quite nicely.

I have never refused to share accounts, I don't have them, the ICB does not produce them. What gives you the impression I personally have the authority to demand a financial report to be made up?

Maybe you should write to the advisory council, although some of them are registered on this forum and are a little insulted you insinuated they pocket a profit from the members, especially as they are members. (although I notice you have been editing your comments now so can deny it)

ICBUK · Guru

@Bob

Hi Bob,

The ICB was setup in the 90's the same way as the AAT and IAB etc, as a Not for Profit Organisation.

In 2006 (I think) the AAT setup a charity arm, I am unsure on how the two are linked.

The ICB did consider becoming a charity, but the extra paperwork and bureaucracy would mean a huge increase in costs. For example, in 2009 the AAT's council claimed over £200,000 in expenses alone.

Personally I don't think it is worth it.

Regarding the software, one of the ICB's objectives is to encourage large companies who would normally overlook bookkeepers to realise how important they are.

Getting a large international company such as Iris to build an interest in the bookkeeping market is a great achievement. It was also a good time as some members were contacting the ICB about Sage Bookkeepers club (now I believe being stopped) and how they needed more cost effective software that accountants used. The ICB did contact Sage but the talks did not conclude to anything.

This idea of ICB working with Iris to produce a package was run past members at the conference at London last year. It received very good feedback and so the project went ahead.

kjmcculloch · Guru

Firstly, can I start by saying I have not edited any of my posts to change the substance. Any edits were for additional comments or spelling mistakes. I resent any insinuations to the contrary. You'll also note that no edits were made more than a minute or so after the initial post.

Secondly when I use the term you, it is used to mean the ICB whom you claim to represent on this forum and not you as a private individual.

Wolverton Park may be made up of multiple buildings, but I doubt Walverton Park House is, which is the address the ICB use.

ICB refuse to produce or publish accounts, I have my own views on this, and as members on this forum are not stupid, I'll allow them to draw their own conclusions.

I'm pretty sure if any member of the advisory council is on this board and insulted by my posts they can stand up and be counted, otherwise they would not make particularly good board members, would they?

john Boy · Veteran Member

Sorry to get involved with this, but the ICB does produce accounts, as all companies must. The abbreviated accounts are on compnaies house.

Suggesting the ICB doesnt produce accounts is either incorrect, or shows poor management if the directors do not know how the business is doing.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi John Boy,

Yes sorry I mean full accounts with a report like the AAT.

My area is IT not accounts, I get basic info, probably what is in the abbreviated accounts.

The ICB is structured differently though, in that each country the ICB has an office they have their own accounts, CEO, staff, etc. The AAT produce consolidated accounts for the whole world, not just UK.

There is an ICBGlobal meeting next year and probably the consolidated accounts topic will come up, as some of the other countries have talked about it.

BudgetB · Guru

I'm not a member of the ICB, but for my tuppence worth, you never see anyone from the IAB on here talking to and advising people, so perhaps time to give James a break.

As an impartial reader this increasingly reads like a personal attack, I think enough has been aired now and it's time to draw a line under it.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

James

Where were you in Stokenchurch? I never knew that. I used to spend much of my time up there due to family etc etc.

P

BobHarper · Guru

@James - thanks. I do not understand why the ICB does not publish full accounts and I don't think you have handled this well.

Bob

Suffolker · Senior Member

Fascinating reading! Everyone knows that the ICB are cash cows though, high fees that keep rising and levels of customer service that leaves alot to be desired. I've had many a rude toned email in reply to my questions in the past. I've also been waiting 2 months to receive my new practice licence!!!!

Keep up the good work Kris!

Stardoe · Guru

Is it me, or is this increasingly becoming the James and Kris show? lol

I agree with BudgetB, time to stop and draw a line under it.

Pauline

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