AAT qualified but considering ICB - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Stardust · Newbie

AAT qualified but considering ICB

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Stardust,

Welcome to the forum!

You should be able to get exemptions from your work experience, using your AAT qualifications as additional support. You maybe required to take a short test (scenario based) to support your application.

Contact the ICB with details of your work experience and qualifications at memberservices@bookkeepers.org.uk

However, you do not need to study, you can just take the qualifications, no course required.

You can take the Payroll qualification without any other prerequisites. The Self Assessment qualification requires the level 2, so you would either need exemptions, or do the Level 1 and 2.

I will leave others to answer the CIMA vs ACCA question.

Hope this helps.

Stardust · Newbie

Thankyou for your response James. Could I do level 1 and then just level 2 computerised bookeeping in order to be able to progress to the self assesment qualification, or would I also need to sit the manual level 2 too?

Many Thanks

ICBUK · Guru

Hi,

Well with your experience and qualifications you would probably get exemptions from the manual, however, yes you could do just the Level 1 and 2 computerised.

However, in September the ICB is changing its structure, so you would need both the manual and computerised Level 2 for membership.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi James,

could you just confirm that last point for people please.

Are you saying that the ICB will from September no longer recognise full AAT qualification to give exemptions from the ICB level 2 qualification? ( I would have thought that it would also have given exemptions from the ICB level 3 papers!).

Don't you think that the ICB may be shooting themselves in the foot a little with that one? If AAT people want to join the ICB surely it would be better to welcome them with open arms and make their transition as quick and easy as possible.

It might also be worth pointing out to Stardust that if they do not join the ICB then there is nothing to stop them offering Self Assessment and Payroll services but if they do join then they are not allowed to offer these services without passing the ICB exams.

Personally I disagree with the ICB attitude towards the ACCA (my body) but can sort of see the logic (if somewhat flawed) behind the ICB thinking on that one.

The AAT though does cover exactly the same territory as the ICB qualifications so I can see no logic to not giving full exemptions for people who have passed their exams with the AAT.

I think that the people on here would be very interested to know the reasoning behind this decision which I am sure the ICB must have good reason for.

As for continued changes with the ICB structure. I think that people are getting tired of signing up for one thing only to find that they have new hoops that they need to jump through.

In the current market I really think that people need stability in their chosen qualifications / professional body so that they are able to concentrate on building their businesses, not jumping through new burning hoops just to appease the changing rules of their professional bodies.

Hopefully the above will come across in the constructive manner that it is intended. I know from working as a banking analyst how easy it is to keep making improvements that you feel improve the service only to find that the customers were perfectly happy with what they already had.

Kind regards,

Shaun.

Stardust · Newbie

Thankyou for your opinion Shaun, this has made me rethink! I did wonder whether it would be a good idea to join with the ICB but now I think I might do the AAT Bookkeeping & AAT Payroll course as a refresher (it is cheaper and is with my current institute) and then concentrate on CIMA in time to start in September 2011.

Kind Regards

ICBUK · Guru

Wohoa Shaun, miss read my post I think :)

I didn't say the ICB wouldn't accept AAT, infact I said it does, and that Stardust would most likely get exemptions so does not need to worry about it.

I was replying to the question about being able to join having done only the Level 2 computerised, without the manual side. That is ok until September.

There has only been one change to ICB structure, and that has been discussed for years. This is not just a change for the ICB, but hopefully the whole industry. The ICB want to remove the idea that some people have, that a bookkeeper is just someone who inputs figures into a software package. The only way it can do this is by making sure all bookkeepers (at least its members) are trained in software, but also practical bookkeeping skills.

Stardust, how long would it take you to re-do the AAT courses? I don't think that would be cheaper as AAT exam fees are much higher than ICB's. I guess if you could get exemptions as you have already trained with them it might be a better route.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi James,

seems as though this was a genuine communication breakdown then.

It actually reads as though you were saying that from September Stardust would need to sit the manual level 2 regardless as to their previous AAT qualification.

Many thanks for clearing that up as if I misunderstood what was being said then so would others and many on here are less prone to voicing their concerns than myself.

Kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Stardust,

back to the original question about ACCA and CIMA.

I can completely understand the confusion. So many professional bodies and so difficult to know the pitfalls of making the wrong choice before one has made costly choices.

As previously mentioned I'm ACCA which I swear by and it also suits my career as a freelance business analyst / consultant in retail and corporate banking.

However, it's a matter of horses for courses and to work towards being an accountant in practice you will find that the restrictions placed on CIMA bods is much less draconian than the restrictions placed on members of the ACCA.

For starters, regardless of your previous experience and no matter what other bodies you belong to, if you are with the ACCA until you have passed all of the exams, and have your PER signed off, and have two years post qualification experience (recent prior experience only counts towards your PER). then you can only offer bookkeeping to trial balance, Payroll and VAT services which you will find does not go far enough to satisfy clients who always want tax advice which you are not allowed to give.

Also, even offering the restricted services you are not allowed to make any mention of your ACCA status until you have passed all of the exams and even then you cannot advertise your ACCA status until you are in practice and able to offer more than the restricted services of bookkeeping to trial balance, Payroll and VAT.

The question that you need to ask yourself though is whether you actually need ACCA or CIMA! There are many accountants in practice out there working as MAAT's. If you want to move on from there without affecting your practice why not think about ATT (Associartion of Tax Technicians) and perhaps eventually moving on to becoming a certified tax accountant which just as well respected as an ICAEW / ICAS accountant.

You would not be able to get strait into studying as a chartered tax accountant. Mostly they expect you to have an ACCA / CIMA / ICAEW qualification first but you would be able to take that route if you do ATT.

The web sites to look at are :

Association of Tax Technicians : http://www.att.org.uk/

Chartered Institute of Taxation : http://www.tax.org.uk/

Good luck with whatever route that you choose.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Julies bookkeeping · Veteran Member

I find this thread very interesting, Shamus your point is very valid and very well put.

Today I had an email from a client asking me to check his last bill £58.50, 4.5 hrs charged at £13 ph, I do not charge travel I was at the premises from 9 to nearly 2, I then went to the shop to get him some stamps, stamped the envelopes and took them with me to post.

When I joined him from his previous bookkeeper on set fees about £350 per month, and an extra £85 for payroll, I introduced a better procedure which meant I would only need to attend every other week and charge £35 for his payroll, last months bill was a total of £139 would anyone else feel a bit peeved?

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Julies bookkeeping wrote:

I find this thread very interesting, Shamus your point is very valid and very well put.

Today I had an email from a client asking me to check his last bill £58.50, 4.5 hrs charged at £13 ph, I do not charge travel I was at the premises from 9 to nearly 2, I then went to the shop to get him some stamps, stamped the envelopes and took them with me to post.

When I joined him from his previous bookkeeper on set fees about £350 per month, and an extra £85 for payroll, I introduced a better procedure which meant I would only need to attend every other week and charge £35 for his payroll, last months bill was a total of £139 would anyone else feel a bit peeved?

Yes I would be a lot peeved! £13 per hour is very cheap. Don't be afraid to ditch the client, stating that they are not economically viable. They will soon change their mind. Be a bit tactful about it though!

I am amazed that I have seen bookkeepers on this site charging so little. It really should be between £15 and £20 per hour, possibly more.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Phil,

it's the old supply and demand conundrum.

A lot of people turn to bookkeeping on the back of redundancy. Which of us has not in our time been deluged by correspondence from training companies promising unlimited riches in a recession proof business for those who know bookkeeping.

The reality should read just give us your redundancy money!

I think that in this instance the ICB move to make the practice certificate more difficult to achieve (at least four papers rather than two and separating out payroll and self assessment) means that companies offering these promises must now at least offer more than they have in the past and the people that they are churning out do at least stand some chance of finding clients.

However, the problem remains that when there are lots of redundancies there will be lots of people turning to this profession and the only real weapon that they have to win business over their competition is price which of course drives down the prices that other bookkeepers are able to charge.

This year will be better than last as the accountants I know are all very busy. Last year because they were unable to find the work they were setting their own staff to doing client bookkeeping rather than outsourcing that work to the likes of us.

In Julies case she is offering the price that her market will bear but one of her clients is apparently watching every penny. The only mistake that I think that she is making is to not charging traveling time, or more to the point, distance. I think that if she charged 40p per mile as per the government mileage rate (ignore going down to 25p as that just confuses clients) then that should keep everyone happy.

Of course, in the case of existing clients that would be a change to what they have become accustomed to so should only really be applied to new clients.

Complaining about £58.50 makes me think that this is probably either a very small client or one who has financial problems. Try to put yourself in a position where losing this client would not cause you any issues as they sound as though you are going to have problems with them in the future.

I would also see if you can get them onto payment by standing order to avoid any credit risk associated with this one (maybe offer them a slightly lower monthly charge for the reduced risk to you).

Talk later,

kind regards,

Shaun.