As this is an introduction I think I should probably spout on about myself for a bit, who I am, where I came from, what I'm doing here, etc. But I promise not to go on for too long.
My Name is Michael. I'm 35 this year and last year I was made redundant from the HIPs industry after nearly 7 years with the same company. Some of you will remember when the current government came in, one of the first things they did was to make approx. 10,000 people unemployed by scrapping Home Information Packs overnight - this isn't a sob story by the way, it's just how things worked out.
Before that I was in the catering industry from pretty much when I left college, but after 10 years (unsociable hours, no weekends, working every christmas and new year) I'd had enough and wanted to add "free time" to my work/life balance.
So with no real qualifications in anything I wanted to, or could do I started to look at retraining myself. A few months later (during which I secured a low paid termopary contract job which has been tiding me over) bookkeeping seemed the best option for a variety of reasons. And I took my remaining redundancy money and plouged that into courses.
So far I have qualified in: Bookeeping Lv1, Lv2 and Sage50 Lv2.
What I realized in this time is that I'm quite good at it (in theory, on paper) and I enjoy it. (I guess there was always the possibility I wouldn't!)
So here I am. I have better options than I did a year ago. But never having been in this industry those options are still a bit vague. I'm looking at everything from setting myself up and working from home (daunting to say the least) to signing up with Reed and praying the hourly rates wont be to small.
There's also a looming imperative - my temporary contract runs out in 11 weeks. So decisions have to be made. I'm veering towards self-employed as I have a few contacts who are willing to give me their business (at least thats what they've said) but I dont want to say I can do something and realize after a few weeks that knowing on paper is great but experience counts for all.
For a few months now I have been Googling bookkeeping related questions and this forum has come up again and again. I've always found the questions and answers to be extreemly helpful - so i thought I'd join and say hi.
Hi.
I do have questions. I will search previous topics before I ask them to save wasting people time - but I may need help.
(Who am I kidding: HELP!)
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my blog "the bookkeeper's in town - learning the hard way"
Always good to hear from people who love the subject matter.
like most people I'm sure that you are thinking of everything that can go wrong which is making you wonder whether you should actually start on the freelance path.
One thing to tell yourself is that at some stage everyone here was in exactly the same position with exactly the same worries as yourself.
People with twenty years experience still don't know it all and never expect to espechially as the powers that be keep changing everything from financial reporting standards to the software that we use.... Try thinking of mastering bookkeeping along the same sort of lines as trying to nail a jellyfish to a wall!
I'm assuming that by bookkeeping level I and II you mean ICB? if so then with the exams that you have passed already you can apply for a practicing certificate which will give you cover for MLR (esential if you don't want a heavy fine and potential jail time).
Membership of the ICB (or IAB for that matter if that's who you are with) also give you access to the cheaper PII insurance available through Trafalgar (starts at around £45 per year rather than £300+ elsewhere).
I'm sure that you will find most answers that you need on here and anything that you can't find we're a pretty freindly bunch and are normally, time permitting, quite willing to repeat advice that we've given previously.
Glad to have you on board and good luck with the new venture.
All the best,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I studied with a local college under City & Guilds. I am aware that I should be looking at memberships, insurance (and as of today, practicing certificates) but joining this forum is my first step on researching the legalities and practicalities of setting up.
Make no mistakes, I'm a Newbie in every sense. If you know of, or could recommend a few threads I could be scrolling through to start with that'd be great (maybe sombodys already written a, "So you want to be a bookkeeper?" checklist of sorts?) - but for now I'm going to type ICB, IAB and PII into the "Search the Forum" and see what I can gleen from there
Thank you for the warm welcome and advice - I will certainly be a busy boy for the next few weeks.
pDm
-- Edited by pDm on Sunday 15th of May 2011 01:58:42 PM
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my blog "the bookkeeper's in town - learning the hard way"
At the moment ICB seem to be in favour over IAB on the site largely I believe down to us having James from the ICB as a regular contributor on here. I'm sure that when he picks up this thread tomorrow he would be happy to fill you in o what exemptions your C&G qualification would get against ICB membership if that was the way that you decided to go.
That's nothing against the IAB who also have plenty of members on here and certainly you should look at the websites of both organisations before deciding which one feels right for you.
Of course, you con't have to be a member of a supervisory body but if not you will need to have MLR supervision directly from HMRC and when you take MLR and PII costs into account it would prove cheaper for you to join a supervisory body.
One overriding factor here is that if you want to work for someone else rather than on a self employed basis then AAT would be the way to go as qualification through that body is still the prefered option by employers. (just have a look at positions advertised on the Reed website).
I think for the "So you want to be a bookkeeper checklist" the list would (after training) be :
1) Get MLR cover 2) Get PII insurance 3) Get properly licenced software for your business 4) Get Public Liability Insurance 5) Register as self employed with HMRC 6) Get some business cards printed 7) Put together a standard form engagement letter 8) Join some business networking clubs such as BNI
Personally I'm not big on advertising as a means of finding clients but you may find that it works for you. The card in the local chipshop often works better than an advert in the newspaper and it will be much cheaper.
The downside to the above of course is that you will have invested quite a bit of time and money before you make any return and the return is not guaranteed. You will be competing against like minded bookkeepers all after the same clients. However, no matter how bleak things seem at the start it's like a snowball rolling down a mountainside and once you've picked up the first client or two, do a good job for them and others will come with increasing regularity.
Just think of your clients as your unpaid sales force.
But don't bend over too far to keep clients happy. No matter what they expect of you always remember that you are offering bookkeeping and not accounting services. Often clients are really looking for cheap accountantants but there is a reason why accountants command the sort of money that they do (and a reason why they took five to ten years training for their qualifications).
Basically your PII will only cover you for services that you are qualified to offer so giving things like tax planning advice to clients would like as not invalidate your policy. Just one thing to be wary of there.
Hope that's helped you along a little. Any specific questions just post on here and you will get an answer. Sometimes immediately, sometimes after a day or so as at times people are quite busy with paying work.
all the best,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
City and Guilds could be used as a supporting qualification, but probably not on its own. I have been told its because it is an international qualification so they don't cover UK VAT etc. However, these bodies constantly change things so perhaps contact the ICB with some details.
I think you will get exemption from the Level 2 computerised, but you may need to do the Manual parts to cover VAT.
<<< Post deleted as the spammer that it responded to has now been banned from the site >>>
-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 31st of May 2011 12:38:56 PM
-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 31st of May 2011 12:40:33 PM
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I'm afraid I don't know what exemptions you would get from the IAB, but you could contact them to find out as I do know they know a lot about the qualifications you have. The reason they won't say outright if your qualifications will gain exemptions is I know someone with L4 AAT who thought that would gain exemptions at Fellow level, but the qualification was about 7 year old, and they only had limited experience since gaining the qualification so I believe, the IAB would only accept them at a lower level until they were satisfied they had gained the appropriate experience to justify membership at a higher level.
The IAB expects its members to only take on work they are confident they know how to do, and don't specifically expect them to take an exam in that subject just to be able to do the work - provided you have sufficient bookkeeping qualifications at the required level and appropriate experience. The IAB consider CPD important to maintain knowledge. Exams are useful, but it should be part of your ongoing knowledge, rather than the only requirement.
Shaun - I think it might be best if you delete your own post above. It kind of looks bad when people can't see the original post. For anyone that missed them, the posts weren't offensive - just really random stuff from a spammer now banned. I suppose I'd better go and delete my post about the yellow snow elsewhere - though luckily I had quoted the original post.
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Never buy black socks from a normal shop. They shaft you every time.
it did look completely out of context didn't it and made me look like the spammer!
If I can find them I had best check out my other responses to her and do the same.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thanks for all the advice guys. I've gone away and done some research and discovered the following:
ICB will not accept C&G bookkeeping qualifications due to there being "elements" not covered in the course.
C&G insist that their qualifications are designed to be acceptable to all industry bodies.
IAB are happy to accept C&G qualifications.
I've also looked into cost and accessibility for first time members. After contacting the IAB and ICB directly I feel that the IAB has the more straightforward and open membership by exemption process.
From what I have managed to glean, the ICB works out very slightly cheaper than the IAB for student members (when taking all costs/fees into account from joining to practising). However they seem to charge members by exemption exactly the same price as student members, albeit for different reasons.
By comparrason membership via the exemption route with IAB is less than half the cost of it's own student member route.
I am still waiting for an email from the ICB detailing exactly which "elements" of bookkeeping are not taught with C&G. I'll update here when I know more.
If anybody's interested, I still haven't made my mind up yet. I'm not keen on going with HMRC direct for MLR and circumventing they whole thing, as I do feel the support of a professional membership body would be beneficial.
Choosing between the two (AAT notwithstanding), however, has not been made easy by either organisation. For me in the end it'll probably come down to cost, a feeling of what's fair and the pre-customer service I'm currently receiving.
-- Edited by pDm on Monday 6th of June 2011 06:13:33 PM
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my blog "the bookkeeper's in town - learning the hard way"
C&G are more generic international qualifications, so do not cover UK VAT but have a generic Sales Tax for example.
They also change their required pass levels depending on their quotas for each examination sitting. Last time the ICB checked they do not print the actual score on any qualification certificates, so a pass could be as low as 45%, or as high as 75%.
However, your course might have covered these extra areas, and so you would have the required knowledge to just take the examinations, without having to do any further study.
Have you rung the ICB to discuss options?
-- Edited by ICBUK on Tuesday 7th of June 2011 04:25:44 PM
This thing about VAT and UK VAT has been mentioned to me before and it's a little confusing. For the whole of my course I've been dealing with (what we've been calling) VAT.
So exactly what is different? I guess I'm asking: What knowledge am I missing that's so specialised to UK VAT that learning generic sales tax doesn't cover?
As for C&G pass grades being set according to quota, I am extremely surprised to learn this and will be contacting C&G to express my concerns.
Thanks for your help so far, I am emailing ICB back and fourth, but in response to the (somewhat differently phrased) question I have just put to you I have not had a reply from the membership team as yet.
Michael
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my blog "the bookkeeper's in town - learning the hard way"
I have to agree with James about the C&G not coving UK VAT, but personally I don't think its essential to have to take an exam to prove you know about VAT. I know a lot about VAT (having taught the subject, worked for a Queens Award for Export winner, and sat through more VAT checks and investigations than most - but then I do enjoy this type of work) but never taken an exam in the subject.
The trouble with trying to assess any professional body on cost, is you don't find out which one suits you more until you've joined!
Good luck with your research.
-- Edited by YLB-HO on Tuesday 7th of June 2011 07:00:29 PM
Yeah like I said the course probably did cover VAT, but if you were not tested on it the ICB has no way of knowing to what level you are at. Some colleges brush on the subject, others go into detail.
YLB-HO Said: "I don't think its essential to have to take an exam to prove you know about VAT"
Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. VAT is an area of importance, no one likes a VAT inspection. Especially if you have been doing it wrong for some years, it all adds up.
I know from exam stats that VAT is an area of common mistakes, which is why the ICB makes sure each of its members know what they are doing.
Your client being told they are out by even £5,000 on VAT and being hit with an unexpected bill will make them think twice about who they are using for their accounts.
I'm getting pretty far down the line now. Mid-October should be when I have everything in place to legally and professionally start my business. I've been attending HMRC workshops, getting insurance quotes and had my first networking event last week.
Although still daunting in the extreme, it's all very exciting too. I've decided to start writing a blog of my experiences as I set up my business. Hiccups and success stories, that kind of thing. I'm sure once it gets going it might be of some use to somebody, someday. But until then it's just what it is. If you'd like to, take a look at the link in my signature.
Yeah like I said the course probably did cover VAT, but if you were not tested on it the ICB has no way of knowing to what level you are at. Some colleges brush on the subject, others go into detail.
YLB-HO Said: "I don't think its essential to have to take an exam to prove you know about VAT"
Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. VAT is an area of importance, no one likes a VAT inspection. Especially if you have been doing it wrong for some years, it all adds up.
I know from exam stats that VAT is an area of common mistakes, which is why the ICB makes sure each of its members know what they are doing.
Your client being told they are out by even £5,000 on VAT and being hit with an unexpected bill will make them think twice about who they are using for their accounts.
Sorry, but can I disagree completely?
VAT inspections are nothing to be frightened of! In fact I think they are a great chance to pick the brain of the VAT inspectors, check and clarify technical rules etc I have always found them enjoyable and VAT inspectors helpful.
I wish they did them more often as they did 20 years ago. But now they only seem to happen if a client regulary makes VAT reclaims or if there is a "hiccup" which the VAT office spot. The last one I did, came about because after a time when I was on holiday, a member of staff (admin only) decided to deal with a import using the the wrong (simplified) scheme, which I was not aware of. Under the scheme the goods should have been returned to the originating country, but did not. This is why the investigation came about. Doing a VAT exam would not have taught anyone about this etc.
I knew how to deal with it simply because I had the experience and done many of them before. Had the inspection gone wrong (due to my not realising what had happened and producing all the required evidence), it could have cost the company £35k+, but the VAT inspectors when out of their way to be helpful, as I had all the original records etc., and was able to prove the history before and after the import under the the wrong scheme, and in the end the VAT inspector was impressed with our record keeping and offered help in the future if we ever needed it.
For your own piece of mind if nothing else, would you not want to do a test scenario before you started completing real returns?
Fine if you have experience, however, for those starting out with no experience it cannot be assumed their course covered VAT, or that they have understood it.
From the professional bodies point of view, as my post was mostly refering, they have to make sure you have the skills required. Unfortunately sometimes an examination is the only way.
Afternoon everybody. Every week I am writing a short blog about my start-up experiences as a novice bookkeeper. If youd like to take a look, please do.
