I failed 3 of my Level 3 exams and have finally passed the resits. How much impact will this have on my qualification? Will I be seen as a weak member? I am debating whether or not to go onto Level 4 because I struggled so much with Level 3 but then again the gaps between each qualification probably makes it look bad too. My life is very hectic with kids, disabilities, things thrown at me from all directions so my tutors struggled to support me and I lost the will to live towards the end of Level 3.
I need my qualifications and work experience to change things for me and my family but its always hard to find the time to revise and when I do my head is a complete mess.
Keep fighting, you've come so far already. You need to make time for your studies, if it were me i'd sit down and have a think, reorganise my life and make at least 2 hours a week free for study. Remember this isn't a race and you will get there in the end, as far as i know with AAT your diploma is as good as mine will be even if it takes you ten years to complete. I understand how hard study time is to secure as it seems everytime i sit down and just start to get a chapter of the book to sink in my daughter turns up with my granddaughter. The most frustrating part is that my daughter is studying for a diploma herself and drops the little un off with us so she can have some peace and quiet to study.........sometimes i literally pull my hair out. Good luck with your studies.
Understand completely the issue with children and study. How old are yours? I know with mine that when they were young and I was able to study when I got them off to bed but as he's grown (5 children but only one living at home with me now) and bed time has got later study has become increasingly difficult and now its a case that sometimes in addition to single parenting I can either work or study but not both.
Anyway, my answer is going to concentrate on reviewing your study technique rather than whether or not you should go on to level 4... You know you should and it's just the depression of those fails thats stopped you so lets forget the apprehension and look at improving getting the most from your studies.
The key to getting through this though is prioritisation. When you've passed your exams you will be looking to work and how will you fill in everything else around that? Think about that and assume that the work time is now your study time. (I'm assuming that the bit where the children will be at schoold / playgroup).
I find that the best approach to study is to sit down with the books that you have to learn and plug every chapter name / number into a plan in Excel. Put consecutive dates next to each chapter but take weekends and bank holidays out of the equation.
Have four columns next to each chapter in order to fill in the dates that you read each (yes, you will be doing each one four times).
There are study techniques that emphasise the repetition frequency which is generally read today, read tomorrow, read one week from now, read one month from now. Kapow, it's ingrained knowledge and it's on to practice questions.
Try to read one new chapter and scan read one old chapter per day.
Don't skip embedded questions, they're there for a reason.
Don't try to do too many exams in one sitting. Espechially at higher levels as it's much better to pass two than fail four!
When you've finished the book(s) do the same with questions from old exam papers.
There, you've got a rigid framework to work to. The important thing is that before the exams you are doing an exam paper a day or every couple of days in the run up.
I have to disagree with Neil on one point. Two hours a week is not going to get you anywhere. You need to be looking at that per day! However, don't try and plan in time, plan in chapters and the time will find itself.
Five minutes sat on the toilet, ten minutes next to the cooker, it all add's up and you would be surprised but you will easily get through a chapter of any of the AAT study texts per day and if you have a little time when the children are in bed then do the embedded questions then.
Welcome to the world of no sleep, no social life and no Jeremy Kyle!
All the best and hope that the above reads as it's intended,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I don't know how old your children are but I used to make mine get up and get their own breakfast (it was cereal). Set my alarm early and get a couple of hours study - in bed! Study is much easier now the Children are grown up! You need to find a system that works for you, then stick to it. I apprecate how hard it can be but you have the will to succeed or you would have given up long ago.
I don't think it matters if you pass on a resit, in fact because you have revised the subject twice (or more) you should be more confidence that you know the subject.
I have a similar problem with ex wife number three dropping her three year old (nothing to do with me!) off with me at the slightest opportunity as "it's only right that she spends time with her brother!".
I wouldn't mind but I'm trying to run a business, raise a child alone with absolutely no backup (including from his own mom) and also study for the final stage of ACCA. She on the other hand needs to go shopping as raising children is so stressful!!!
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
About the 2 hours Shaun, i was just trying to make the point that having a minimum set time planned for yourself is usually the best approach. If someone is struggling with a study-life balance any study time is a bonus. As you know i am well aware of the study time needed for AAT but i have found myself with only a couple of hours to spare on the odd week and they have been invaluable (and i expected to get 30hrs a week study time). I'm going to use your Excel plan when i get home, sound advice once again. As for your life, i thought mine was barmy lol, you earned a diploma in juggling i see. (As for 3 wives? you need your bumps felt matey lol)
Take care
Neil
oh theres nowt like ones own loo for studying
-- Edited by Spamkebab on Wednesday 24th of August 2011 02:20:22 PM
Noola- firstly well done for passing your exam, a pass is a pass regardless.
I am in the same position with young children and many of times felt like giving up, however you know deep down if you perserver you will get there in the end,as Neil said it's not a race and you will get a better future for you and your child. I found it much harder studying of an evening, the materials would not sink in, however my little one has started pre school 2 mornings a week so i can get some study time and it's made a huge impact on my learning. Try and get some study time when your little one is having a nap or depending on your childs age put on a dvd.
Also what Shaun said about re- reading an old chapter is good advice to keep refreshed. When you go back you understand it a little bit more.
what ever you do don't give up and keep heads up Good Luck
So glad there are other parents out there with young children to study around!
In theory I'd like to study in the evening (kids are in bed at 730 and I'm ot a morning person) but like Ghames the knowledge doesn't go in... So I study in the morning after the school run (I get 2 and a half days kid free) then I reread it half heartedly in the evening and this seems to make the knowledge sink in! It's hard though, I have phases where I don't want to work at all and its hard to get motivated, so I don't! Then other weeks I'll be really into it and get a lot done. I tried to set myself a schedule and do it at the same time every week but I came to loathe "school time" if I wasn't in the right mindset. I suppose this is the luxury of home study, but on the downside it means I get through I slower than if I went to college every week.
Level 3 was definitely harder than level 2... Level 4 is yet to come, but I'll work through it because employment prospects are better with it, and if I can go from baby brain to understanding management accounts at a reasonable level then I can go one step further to level 4!
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Well done NikkiJ for getting as far as you've got. What you've described is exactly what i go through, it is very hard to keep motivated. Ive booked my exam level 2 for the end of the month which has really made me motivated as i want to pass with a good score.
Booking an exam is huge motivation for me... I have 1 next week followed by another 3 two weeks later. I'm going for the AAT route. In practice I don't think I'll use all the knowledge that I've learnt so far but I love learning about all the different aspects of accounting from purchasing the product through to selling it and being able to analyze all the steps in between and learning how to record all of this for others to see. I did a basic bookkeeping course a few years ago and the questions I was left with that were never answered because they didn't need to be known for the level of work made it hard for me to care.
Personally, I like the in-depth knowledge taught on the course and it definitely makes me want to go further... Probably the CIMA route. What accounting body are you taking exams with?
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Best of luck for your exam. When i looked into book keeping i was stuck between ICB & AAT the reason i went for ICB is that i eventually want to go self employed, however i want to gain work experience before i started up on my own. now i wish i had done the AAT first as it is a more employable qualification as i am now finding out.
I don't think ICB is any less sought after than AAT... In all honesty I'm not sure that many employers knows the ins and outs of the qualifications and for an accounts assistant type role I think one qualification at this level is as good as the next for them.
I have a couple of local contacts that I do work for, but it's mainly checking over the bookkeeping they've done themselves or helping them with tax returns, one day I'll set up properly... This'll probably be when I've finished all the exams I intend to do.
__________________
Please correct me if I'm wrong... I am only human sucking up knowledge... Sometimes bits leak out!
I don't think ICB is any less sought after than AAT...
It's difficult to answer this one without sounding anti ICB which I'm not, espechially following the work that they've been doing in taking the profession forwards.
The issue that I have with the statement taken on it's own is that it's not factually correct.
Take a look at advertised positions (start with the Reed website which is always a good yardstick) and no matter how lowly the role employers quite specifically ask for AAT qualifed or PQ with a CCAB body (or CIMA).
I just did a UK wide search of their site using ICB and it came back with two hits. One in Yorkshire and one in Surrey.
Repeat the search with AAT and it comes back with 965 jobs (ACCA 1335 jobs, CIMA 937 jobs, ATT 71 jobs, IAB nothing).
I'm not deridng any of the supervisory bodies. People should be commended for making the effort no matter which path they take. I'm simply stating the afcts.
The unfortunate truth is that many employers have no idea which supervisory body does what and so it's down to the agents to define what the employers need.
I think that the people that the ICB really need to work on is changing the attitudes of agents but whilst there are so many AAT people out there looking for work why should agents take the time to listen as there are already more applicants than roles available.
The real difference that ICB (and IAB) can make to people is by giving them the skills to gain experience via self employment and then it's the experience that sells the person rather than the qualifications that they have.
The experience is the key part as qualifications in themselves to not get jobs and without a job in this line of work it would be near impossible to gain experience without the lifeline that the ICB/IAB offer via the self employment route.
Sorry to jump on a line which was probably just a throw away but I know that a lot of people read these threads and I would not want any newbies to this to get the wrong impression about demand for services in correlation with the chosen path that one takes.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I think most of those jobs are being posted by accountants, or accountancy trained staff. Most of these (unless they qualified in the last 10 years) would have done AAT, and so that is what they ask for. As time moves on more and more accountants would have qualified with the ICB.
Thanks for the recognition Shaun "espechially following the work that they've been doing in taking the profession forwards." I actually read that in Roger's voice (person in the avatar for non American Dad fans)
-- Edited by ICBUK on Friday 21st of October 2011 04:31:08 PM
long time since we were last both on here at the same time. Hope that lifes good with you.
It's a very good point about people basing their requirements on their own history.
Following that logic then the ICB route into this business should reap rewards five to ten years down the line when those who came in that way (either through self employment or self employment back to employment in practice via the experience route) are employing staff themselves.
Actually, I for one would employ based on ICB membership so the cunning plan is obviously working already. Just might take a while for the message to travel further up the food chain than my little business.
All the best,
Shaun.
P.S. I've had several threads recently where I've been the same as you and imagined it being Roger answering the post... Some of them have been really spot on. Anyway, I need wine!
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
You can't quote a few words from a paragraph and pick it apart assuming that's my whole argument... Your point below is along the same lines of what the rest of the paragraph says.
Shamus wrote:
I'm not deridng any of the supervisory bodies. People should be commended for making the effort no matter which path they take. I'm simply stating the afcts.
The unfortunate truth is that many employers have no idea which supervisory body does what and so it's down to the agents to define what the employers need.
If I was looking for a job I would be more likely to search for a job title rather than AAT, and when you look at a lot of the job postings list accepted qualifications and often state they'll accept something similar. As anyone can call themselves an accountant I think a lot of employers seek a certain level and want qualifications of the same level to back it up.
Note : amended by moderator to emphasise what was being quoted
-- Edited by Shamus on Saturday 22nd of October 2011 12:14:40 PM
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Please correct me if I'm wrong... I am only human sucking up knowledge... Sometimes bits leak out!
But to be fair it was the opening paragraph. So didn't exactly do a red top on it (i.e. take words from a sentence and rearrange them to suit what I wanted).
You state that if you were looking for a job you would look at the title rather than the requirements. However, when you come to apply for the job if you don't have the requirements you are not going to get past the first hurdle which is usually the agents.
Agents scan CV's in a few seconds and if their requirements are not on the CV then they are binned. When they do a job search of their database they use the specific requirements, i.e. AAT, PQ, etc. they don't expand the scope to similar qualifications. They don't need to.
I think that James point is very sound though that the work that the ICB is doing now will change the landscape of this business and I can see a change of attitudes of employers in the future.
My response though was to the situation as it is now and even if agents say "or similar" they don't have the time to look at CV's that don't have the primary requirements.
The situation, fair or not, is that even where the ICB person is better suited to the job it's never found out as the agents only send forwards the CV's with the primary requirements on them. Only in a scenario where no suitable candidate with the primary skills could be found would the search criteria be widened. That's not exactly likely in the current market where agencies like Reed are getting 900+ applicants within two hours for accounts assistant roles.
I've actually worked with (not for) an agency and know how the system works from the inside, but my situation was a little different in that the company that I worked with needed 400 skilled staff for a six month project (that actually turned into seven years!). The agent was sending us complete garbage but they all met the wording of the requirements. I went in and actually read the CV's knowing what I was looking for. Note that many of the people that I hired were one's that were rejected by the agents!
Agents (or more to the point the people doing the searches for the agents) are not accountants and if they are given a remit to find x times AAT people that's exactly what they will search for.
The situation remains currently that in this business if you want employment look to AAT or PQ status (and even then there are no guarantee's of employment). For self employment expand that to also include ICB and IAB (where there is a guarantee of being able to be self employed but no guarantee of income).
In the future the differentiation between AAT, ICB and IAB will hopefully change with employers regarding the level IV qualifications of all bodies in the same light. But, we are looking here down the line and not at CV's that people are sending off now which lets be honest, how often do people even get the common courtessy of a rejection message from an agent?
Interesting debate that seems to be starting here.
kind regards,
Shaun.
P.S.1 (to readers in general) for those wondering what a red top is. Quality newspapers have black writing in the heading at the top. Gossip sheets have red.
P.S.2 (To Nikki) I've had to change your post very, very slightly. I've inserted a line to emphasise where the quote actually ends and your response continues. There are no other changes to your post. (sorry, it wouldn't allow me to reallign the last paragraph back to the left).
Note that I would never change the actual wording of peoples posts unless specifically requested in writing by that person, the post was insulting or derogatory, or where the post is spam (which normally ends up with a deletion). This site will always remain one where people are free to debate points in a freindly, open and professional manner.
As mentioned above and just to emphasise, the only change that I have made is inserting a line to show where the quote ends.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Interesting point made by Nikki, "I would be more likely to search for a job title".
ICB seem to be sticking firm to the term Bookkeeper, or even Certified Bookkeeper, AAT I notice are advertising Licenced Accountant or Find an Accountant etc, IAB have setup this IAAP using job title Accounting Professional.
ICB is going to be the only body for bookkeepers soon (can't make up my mind if I should use a happy face or sad face )
long time since we were last both on here at the same time. Hope that lifes good with you.
It's a very good point about people basing their requirements on their own history.
Following that logic then the ICB route into this business should reap rewards five to ten years down the line when those who came in that way (either through self employment or self employment back to employment in practice via the experience route) are employing staff themselves.
Actually, I for one would employ based on ICB membership so the cunning plan is obviously working already. Just might take a while for the message to travel further up the food chain than my little business.
All the best,
Shaun.
P.S. I've had several threads recently where I've been the same as you and imagined it being Roger answering the post... Some of them have been really spot on. Anyway, I need wine!
Hi Shaun,
Yes all good here thanks, yourself?
Pretty busy at the mo so haven't been on here much. ICB is expanding like crazy since the move to bigger offices.
Good to hear you would look for an ICB member, as time goes on there will be more accountants like you with an ICB history, hopefully all in the same frame of mind We have an accountants practice award this year because we are working so many these days.
Shaun, I didnt suggest you rearranged my quote.. I said "pick it apart" meaning analyzing this part on it's own without taking into account the rest of the paragraph. With regards to not passing the first hurdle of a recruitment, I'm not sure thati agree with you here... For example, I hold a basic Canadian bookkeeping certificate, not only does it mean nothing here but the examining body are less recognized than any of the bodies based in the uk, yet I have had interviews on the merits of this course (can't be experience as I only have a bit of credit control experience under my belt) and have even picked up a client. I think the majority of recruiters see that any sort of training shows dedication and knowledge on the subject. James, in the long term being the only body who promotes professional bookkeepers may go in it's favour... Perhaps the AAT pushing the "management accountants" thing might bite them in the ass a bit if clients are expecting full auditting type accountant. But we'll see... This is a discussion for another day, perhaps when the icb students with more experience than the AAT students and when we are all as recognizable to employers as each other!
__________________
Please correct me if I'm wrong... I am only human sucking up knowledge... Sometimes bits leak out!
Have you tried making contact with other ICB members in your area to see if they could subcontract work to you?
Where have you gone to find employed work?
Hi
I have completed my icb level 1 have my exam for manula 2 on Sat 29th and then will sit my computerised. In the intrim i have written to my local accountant firms and bookkeepers explaining my positioning and that i would be looking for work experience.
I wouldn't feel confident to do any sub contracting work or starting up on my own until i gained some experience. It's one thing learning from books at your own pace to taking on work.. it's scary ...
The situation remains currently that in this business if you want employment look to AAT or PQ status (and even then there are no guarantee's of employment). For self employment expand that to also include ICB and IAB (where there is a guarantee of being able to be self employed but no guarantee of income). Shamus
Thats exactly my point. I am doing the ICB with no book keeping or accountancy experience
i would like to be employed to gain some experience prior to going self employed.
The Level 1 is only a basic qualification, so you will find it hard getting a job for more than an accounts assistant or data inputter.
Once you have done the Level 2 it would be better, the Level 3 would be even more preferable.
With employment you might find you need to be over qualified (so if you are Level 3 you will be doing Level 2 work etc), but also need experience.
Bit of a chicken and egg situation.
If you wanted full time employment then perhaps look into swapping from the ICB to AAT, you could probably skip their Level 2 and go straight in at Level 3.
However, you do say you want to go self employed, so why not look into partnering up with another self employed bookkeeper. You would need to be at least Level 2 Associate before you could do this (you could do it as an Affiliate but it is easier the higher level of membership you hold, plus you could get your own insurance and PL etc).
The ICB hold quite a few meetings for members, why not attend one in your area see if someone will work with you. Also call the ICB helpline and get some advice about this.
Thank you for your response, it's very helpful. I understand that currently i only have basic book keeping but i am working towards my level 2 and contemplating to do my level 3. I will look into attending ICB meeting that might be a good start for me to meet others face to face and look into partnering.
I think first things first i need to get my level 2 under my belt.
Do I give up now? 
)
We have an accountants practice award this year because we are working so many these days.
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