New to the forum but I have trained and worked in accountancy since leaving school decades ago and have worked as a freelance bookkeeper for the past 15 years but never had anyone I could share my work problems/experiences with before.
I think I give a pretty good service, reliable, normally very accurate and hard-working (was given a huge bonus from one grateful client a few years ago). However. For the past few years I have been working 2 days a week for a very small company, one director who...well, let's say she's volatile. My workload has steadily increased and every dot has to be just so. Ok, no problem. But I've been feeling increasingly bullied.
Then, a few months ago, I prepared the monthly creditors' listing for her at month end (which I also have to type out in the body of an email) and told her it had to be paid by the 7th of the following month. She paid it but, due to the way the weekend fell, the payment didn't reach HMRC until the 10th. Now she's saying I should pay at least half of the £750 fine - which hasn't even been paid yet as we are lodging an appeal - and has apparently already witheld that part of my last invoice which I can ill afford to lose.
What is the situation on this? Is it legal? Incidentally, she's often doing things like this to her employees, one of whom is paid way below the minimum wage.
I have brought up the problem with her which is that I'm really having to do a full time job in a 2 day week which she has acknowledged but and this is why I did cut it fine by getting the figures to her close to the end of the month but doesn't the responsibility for paying VAT on time rest with her and not her bookkeeper?
I would not pay anything towards this fine. If you make a concession once, she will use it against you every time there is even the slightest problem. And at the end of it all payments to HMRC are solely the responsibility of the company (her).
I am however a bit confused as to why the VAT return is so late as you have over a month from the end of the accounting/VAT period in which to get the VAT return completed, filed and paid and HMRc don't normally fine you £750 if the payment is just a day late, unless there have been issues in the past.
I would go with what Mark has said. I also agrre that this may not be her first "offence", as they give warnings, and even offer to help on first offences
Try asking why she thinks you should pay towards her fine.
The only fly in the ointment that I can see, is that if you told here the 7th, and it falls on a weekend, then strictly speaking that's wrong, as HMRC say that all payments must clear their account by the due date, and if the due date falls on a bank holiday, or weekend, then it should be paid earlier. That information is on most documents and HMRC website. This may be her arguement but again it is still her responsibility to pay on time.
Bill
-- Edited by Wella on Thursday 29th of September 2011 06:06:36 PM
Thanks very much for your advice and help and it's good to among others of my own kind (!?) I actually enjoy bookkeeping to a certain extent which some of my friends find very odd....
Big meeting tomorrow so we'll see how it goes but she has done this kind of thing before. She once paid someone's salary to the wrong bank account and, when he was unable to get it back, paid it again to the right one but made him repay it over 3 months, even though it was her mistake.
Unfortunately, as I said, she's just withheld £350 from my last invoice without telling me first so it will be difficult to get it back unless I leave and go to the small claims court. But I think it may be time to move on.
I would think it would be worth going to the small claims court to claim your money back, you can also claim any costs incurred in taking this type of action. I did with a client of mine (not the same scenario) she thought I was calling her bluff! She settled with me on the day the case was called (before it went before the Sherifff (Scotland).
Unless they have changed the rules there must have been two late payments minimum within a one year period. There must have been over £20,000 owing if it was a second offence or over £8000 for a third offence within the one year default surcharge period.
Thats terriblel regarding the employee who had to pay it back over 3 months, surely that was her responsibility for typing in the wrong bank details not the employees.
Sounds like abit of a bully, I once work for someone part-time and after a while when I was complaining to another employee who was in on my interview that they can't possibly expect all that to be done in a part-time capacity, she commented that the previous person was full-time and there was no way the job could be done in the hours that I wanted to give them. Needless to say I don't work there anymore, they never paid any creditors on time, and it was always a worry if any staff were going to get paid including my inv.
Maybe start by sending her a letter/email claiming that the money she has deducted from your inv you still want to be paid and write in there about a small claims court as a warning. I would say though start looking for another client and be prepared to walk away. Sometimes its just not worth the hasle!
Then, a few months ago, I prepared the monthly creditors' listing for her at month end (which I also have to type out in the body of an email) and told her it had to be paid by the 7th of the following month. She paid it but, due to the way the weekend fell, the payment didn't reach HMRC until the 10th.
Hi
If you typed this in the email, then why is it your fault? You didn't say, the payment had to be sent on the 7th, that was her choice.
Perhaps she sent it too late in the day and missed the bank cut-off, which isn't in your control.
Sounds like her responsibility to me.
Tony.
__________________
Tony
Responses are intended as outline only. Formal advice should be sort from your Institutes Technical Department or a suitably qualified Accountant.
BTW, I looked back at what exactly happened and I'd emailed her the creditors' listing on Friday, the 29th July with "VAT NEEDS TO REACH HMRC BY THE 7TH AUGUST" (in red). I then sent her a reminder on Monday the 1st August but she appears to have paid all the other creditors on Tuesday, the 2nd and the VAT payment of about £14k left our account on the 5th.
She's claiming (a) that just before 5pm on the Friday (29th July) was too late and I should have known she's be too busy on the Monday to pay anyone and (b) I should have made it clear it took 3 working days to reach them. Why couldn't she have paid them over the weekend and how was I supposed to know how busy she was?
She did default once before but am not sure of the circumstances although nothing was paid, apparently.
I'm about to resign - have found another potential client - but fear I will not get the money I am owed. She's refusing to pay part of my last invoice. Incidentally, when I answered the ad originally it was not for on a freelance basis but she changed her mind, deciding it would be cheaper for the company that way and it was fine by me except that I had to wait 2 months before I got any money (had to submit an invoice after the first month's end and then wait for another 30 days).
I still have the company's Mac laptop in my possession but it's very old and not worth anything like the amount owed to me and could I find myself arrested for theft if I tried to use that as a lever to get paid?
-- Edited by Sheffilyn on Saturday 1st of October 2011 03:55:04 PM
I would say you are covered then and she hasn't got a leg to stand on and should not be witholding your payment! I think she has got a nerve actually IMO, she sounds disorgnised and wants to blame someone else. Start advertising she will soon miss you when your are gone! When I gave the people I was working for my letter of resignation they bullied me and kept asking me to stay and then suggested that I ditch ALL my clients and just work for them! Not in a million years was I doing that, they were so unstable it was un true, each month I had staff asking me what was going on and were they going to get paid, it was really awful. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that position again sounds like you have a similar boss!
Yes I have got much nicer clients now, you always get one rotten egg, it depends how long you want to put up with it! By the sounds of things you want to get out anyway so I would go for it you'll never look back once you are gone!
Yes I have got much nicer clients now, you always get one rotten egg, it depends how long you want to put up with it! By the sounds of things you want to get out anyway so I would go for it you'll never look back once you are gone!
have a good weekend!
The problem is 2 days a week work is hard to give up.
__________________
Never buy black socks from a normal shop. They shaft you every time.
But if the client decides that they can withhold payment on a whim giving up not being paid for working is an awful lot easier than giving up actual paid work!
This client thinks that they can offset their loss without proper judicial process and they're wrong.
In this instance I think that Lyn needs to talk with the legal department of her supervisory body and get her case in writing. (including your especially good comment above Peasie about this definitely not being a first offence for the client).
Getting the supervisory body on side is a good move before the client decides to go down the path of putting in a complaint against Lyn which this client seems the sort that would.
The client actually has another issue in that any new financial professional coming into the role should write a professional etiquette letter to the outgoing bookkeeper / accountant to query whether there is anything that needs to be brought to their attention and whether there is any reason that they should not consider the position.
The matter of outstanding fee's / withheld payments is a good reason why other professional bookkeepers would not wish to consider this gig.
The client may find that the only bookkeepers accepting the role are those who do not seek the advice of the outgoing professional who are likely to be those who are less experienced or unqualified and don't know proper client acceptance procedures.
The client can of course refuse to allow the incoming bookkeeper to talk to the outgoing bookkeeper which from the incoming bookkeepers position is tantamount to an obstruction and the proper approach in such instance is not accept the role. However, from the sound of this client Lyn is going to be made out to any new bookkeeper as the antichrist incarnate so I can see this situation repeating again and again.
Main thing for now is for Lyn to protect herself so, (please consider this what I would do rather than advice aas to what you should do), contact your supervisory body legal department for advice and to get your supervisory body on side and then withdraw from servicing this client due to non payment of outstanding fee's.
kind regards,
Shaun.
P.S. edited for numerous spelling issues and to turn the word "you" into "Lyn" as the post is addressed to Peasie but I was referring to Lyn in one of the paragraphs.
-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 2nd of October 2011 01:23:44 PM
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I appreciate all that Shaun. I would advise her to walk away. However, if I had food to pay for I may just put up with some ******** . Depends on whether or not the other days were filled with work. I would definitely not put up with the deduction of the fine from my invoice though.
She says above "My workload has steadily increased and every dot has to be just so" - it works two ways. Make sure the boss has to comply with your own requirements - acknowledgement of any emails where deadlines are mentioned. And tell her she is forcing you into this position.
__________________
Never buy black socks from a normal shop. They shaft you every time.
I agree with you Peasie about giving up 2 days work but in this case, she has not been paid for all her work and if they do this to her now it will only continue again maybe with the next VAT return! When I was in a similar position, admittidly I was always paid, I was actively looking for the next client or 2 while I was working for them, and eventually something came my way that replace it so it was nice telling them t o poke it in a nice was of course! When they kept bullying me in my months notice, and I only gave them a month out of politeness, they just wouldn't take NO for an answer and even on the final day they kept on! So start looking and you never know what nice clients are round the corner. They are not all bad!
Based on your facts, in particular the fact you have a company macbook and fixed hours, you may have an employment tribunal claim. This is based on the fact that I believe yourcircumstances indicate you should in fact have been an employee.
__________________
Phil Hendy, The Accountancy Mentor
Are you thinking of setting up your own practice or have you set up and need some help?
If so a mentor may be the way forward - feel free to get in touch and see how I can assist you.
Hadn't had time to post for ages but all is now resolved; and many, many thanks for the help and support! I sent her the cut and pasted section from HMRC's website which says the payment of VAT on time is the company director/owner's responsibility together with copies of proof that I did let her know in time. Anyway, I decided that enough was enough; I was doing something like a full-time job in two days a week (which I gather is a common problem) and, by coincidence, was offered work with 2 separate clients for 1 day a week's work elsewhere.
But it was all resolved amicably with the money I was owed being paid and, in return, I stayed on until a replacement could be found and handed over to. It did mean a stressful few weeks with nightmare commutes (but the extra money will be useful).
Ironically though, I'm now just a teensy bit bored as I'm used to having a lot more responsibility. Some people are never satisfied!
Seriously though, years ago job titles tended to exactly describe what work it would cover but, over the past decade I have seen ads for 'accountants' which have been for little more than data inputters/filing clerks and 'accounts assistants' expected to work up to final accounts and including forecasting and cash analyses. And a few jobs looking for 'experienced' bookkeepers in Central London which pay only travel expenses!
Reading down to here, I'm breathing a big sigh of relief for you
The only extra thing I'd suggest, is that your final comments do emphasise the importance of having an up-front letter of engagement/agreement which specifies exactly what duties you are agreeing to carry out for the new client.
You're well shot of this last client; good luck for the future! Andy
Well done Lyn for getting rid of her, I sure you are best of out of it! There are plenty of nice clients out there who really value your work, so go for it! At least you got your money.
