Outsourcing - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Outsourcing

Spamkebab · Expert

With a profit margin that good Kris i'd be outsourcing all my work and sitting by my new pool drinking tequilla. Well done finding someone you can now trust.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Now I just need to work on increasing the work load and having it more evenly spread out through the year. The dream!

Kris

ClareB4 · Senior Member

I'm pregnant and want to outsource while I take some much needed maternity leave in February - but am too scared to hand work over to someone else!! How do you find someone good, trustworthy and not too expensive!?

Spamkebab · Expert

You can't, the person you described seems to be pregnant and in great need of some maternity leave. I've employed people in the past (not in a bookkeeping capacity) and often found myself going over their work. May as well have done it myself by the time i was finished but you have to let go, just a teeny bit.

ClareB4 · Senior Member

Made me laugh but yes, you've hit the nail on the head!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I'm currently doing an HNC in Accounting in evening classes, and this was someone who takes the classes with me. I know the quality of her work from college, and strangely, flying in the face of my fixed price structure she billed me £8 per hour which I was delighted with. There was a slight panic when I thought she was taking too long, but I was very wrong she did brilliant.

I think it's foolish if you don't check the work very carefully for the first few times and then spot check thereafter. But I don't think you can have more than a lifestyle business without eventually trusting others to do some of the work. I'm at a place right now where I can have too much work for me, but not enough to take someone on (and no where to put them) so outsourcing seems like the answer to me.

Why not speak to local colleges or all the lovely ICB folk who like hourly rates?

Kris

ADAS · Guru

I regularly outsource when I need help. I've known the lady since she was 16 and started as the accounts assistant when I was working as a management accountant. We're well you used to each others foibles, which is a big help. I still check her work want she returns it to me.

Did you ever get round to taking someone on permanently Kris or are you using the outsourcing route instead?

-- Edited by ADAS on Thursday 10th of November 2011 07:20:25 PM

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

To be honest Tony, I'd love to be in a position to take someone on, but I'm stretched for space as it is. It would mean moving office then there's the worry of always having enough work for them. Outsourcing is filling a gap right now between me doing it, and having an employee.

If things go as planned this year then by January 2013 I'll be moving office and I'd really like to take on a young person as a trainee and give someone a chance to gain some qualifications and skills.

Thats the plan anyway.

Kris

Susie Sue · Senior Member

It's a right quandry - and I'm in it as well!! Can't make my mind up what to do.....

ADAS · Guru

I was thinking of going the other way and employing an older person, who's experienced and looking to "keep their hand in" but I can see taking on someone younger working just as well albeit with different issues (if that's the right word).

Hope things go to plan for you.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

The interesting thing to come out of this thread is that many of us now have more work than we can deal with ourselves. Is this a time of year thing, or are things beginning to really look up?

Tony - Here's where I become very ageist, but being only 28 myself I think it would be more difficult taking on an older person. I can see the benefits it would bring, but I'm very non-traditional in my practice so I'd rather take someone who knows nothing, and mould them. But I can see why people would take the experience and reliability.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Thursday 10th of November 2011 08:04:09 PM

ADAS · Guru

Wish I knew. "the time of year" is probably part of it, by my "ego" would like to think at least part of it is due to building a decent reputation

Sue - I know how you feel. I don't know if you work from home but the thought of needing staff, premises, IT equipment, office infrastructure, insurance, employment contracts etc etc is scary. Plus the pressure of needing to finance it all, as you say - is a real quandary.

ClareB4 · Senior Member

I work from home in an office that is big enough for me but I don't fancy the employers responsibilities so will either be taking on a partner or outsourcing for the time being I think. It's the maternity leave time that is the most pressing for me at the moment but I seem to have found a friend of a afriend who might be worth a try.

I also would be reluctant to take on an older person as I operate a lot with technology and would think that perhaps an older person would struggle with that. Ageist? Perhaps but it all depends on the person I would say.

Perhaps I'll put a job ad on the ICB website and see what responses I get. After all if I go that route I know that the person has good qualifications and a practice licence/insurance etc.

It's just the control freak in me that doesn't want to let go!!

pDm · Senior Member

There may be a glaringly obvious reason why this next idea isn't a runner, but: Why not take someone on for 10-20 hours a month working from home? It's got to be a good second income for somebody, and if it's flexible hours they can complete the work to a set (by you) deadline, at hours pretty much to suit themselves.

Just a thought.

Spamkebab · Expert

Also,i know there would be students willing to do this amount of work for free as long as you were willing to support them (not financially of course) maybe that is worth looking into. Contact local colleges and pick out recommended pupils?

fabs79 · Senior Member

Kris,

"...I'm very non-traditional in my practice..."

I'm intrigued... :o)

Fabs

semsley · Guru

I also would be reluctant to take on an older person as I operate a lot with technology and would think that perhaps an older person would struggle with that. Ageist? Perhaps but it all depends on the person I would say.

As an oldie myself and not just a book-keeper but also an ex IT and business administration tutor in FE, I think it would be a mistake to dismiss an older person on perceived lack of modern technology knowlege. There are older people who have vast experience over many years of both book-keeping and keeping in touch with technological advances. Whilst older people can be guilty of ageism against the young by stereotypical thinking it seems that the reverse is also true.

BudgetB · Guru

So clearly it's just me then that has trust issues with other self employed bookkeepers who might do some work for me trying to poach my clients? I need someone to come in the office at the moment as I have someone off sick now until January and could really do with cover, which depending on the next few months, might lead to a permanant position. Two of the best people that have applied both have their own s/e businesses and do both look like they would be very good at what they do, yet I am more than hesitant. Am I cutting off my nose to spite my face?

And as others have mentioned I also have more work than I could ever possibly manage to acheive at this point, not all caused by the time of year although tax return season is clearly in full swing. Not that I am in any way complaining!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

fabs79 wrote:
Kris,

"...I'm very non-traditional in my practice..."

I'm intrigued... :o)

Fabs

Going from your website Fabs, I'd say you were equally non traditional.

Just as a wee aside, how do you find the referral scheme? I have been toying with a similar idea for a while, but I just can't decide on the finer points.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Sunday 13th of November 2011 05:06:30 PM

NikkiJ · Veteran Member

BudgetB wrote:
So clearly it's just me then that has trust issues with other self employed bookkeepers who might do some work for me trying to poach my clients? I need someone to come in the office at the moment as I have someone off sick now until January and could really do with cover, which depending on the next few months, might lead to a permanant position. Two of the best people that have applied both have their own s/e businesses and do both look like they would be very good at what they do, yet I am more than hesitant. Am I cutting off my nose to spite my face?

And as others have mentioned I also have more work than I could ever possibly manage to acheive at this point, not all caused by the time of year although tax return season is clearly in full swing. Not that I am in any way complaining!

I'm with you here, it would take a lot for me to outsource work to others. I would have to make them sign something to say they would be liable to pay up if they took the client on for themselves within a year, or so, of doing the outsourced work from me. I would rather take something on that wasn't s/e and more of a career employee, in my eyes they'd be less likely to poach... I'd still make them sign the above though just in case the idea got into their head!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

ClareB4 wrote:
I also would be reluctant to take on an older person as I operate a lot with technology and would think that perhaps an older person would struggle with that. Ageist? Perhaps but it all depends on the person I would say.

Like Sheila I would fall into the older category.

What you have to ask yourself is would you rather have systems programmed by those who have been doing it for years or those who are straight out of university?

I personally have made quite a lot of money in my time redesigning and redeveloping IT systems that have been developed by those who assume that making something work is the be all and end all.

Can't remember the number of times I've had the conversation that if it doesn't perform then it doesn't work.

I'm not saying always hire people from the older generation because they're better. There are good and bad in every generation. What I am saying is you need to keep an open mind based on the person rather than their age.

Comments like this one belong to be relegated to history along with the mindset of never hiring or promoting women into positions of authority because they'll just get pregnant so what was the point in investing in them!

Ageism is every bit as wrong as sexism or racism as people have no control over any of those three but whatever their age, sex or race they do have control over their attitude to work and learning and that is what we should concentrate on.

Right, back off my anti ageism soapbox.

kind regards,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Think of the costs to enforce such an agreement. Surely rather than tying your assistance up in legal knots your time would be better ensuring that you are giving your clients the best possible service to encourage them to remain loyal.

Also you've got to ask yourself if the bookkeeper you are giving work will really bite the hand that feeds. I'm sure you would never put any more work their way if they were to poach clients.

Kris

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Shamus wrote:

What you have to ask yourself is would you rather have systems programmed by those who have been doing it for years or those who are straight out of university?

Ageism can work 2 ways!

Kris

NikkiJ · Veteran Member

There's been conversations on here about making accountants sign agreements to say they wont poach clients that you pass to them for work you can't do, so why wouldn't you do the same with a bookkeeper?

Obviously if I'm outsourcing/hiring someone I'll be in the position that my business is doing well on a regular basis so the help would benefit me as much as them, so I will be making their working life as good as it can be so they can help my business grow. But who's to say that once they are help out on 3 or 4 clients they won't think of poaching them all? My hand won't be feeding them if they've taken all the work for themselves.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Do you think 3 or 4 clients would abandon you? How much do you think it would cost to enforce such terms?

Personally, I will not be wasting money creating such terms or trying to enforce them, I'll be working to provide the best possible service to ensure my clients choose to use me.

Guess it's 2 sides of the same coin. I suppose the other point is why would the bookkeeper you have outsourced to have any contact with your clients?

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
Shamus wrote:

What you have to ask yourself is would you rather have systems programmed by those who have been doing it for years or those who are straight out of university?

Ageism can work 2 ways!
Kris

Which is why the full answer which you quoted an excert from also had the line in it saying :

"I'm not saying always hire people from the older generation because they're better. There are good and bad in every generation. What I am saying is you need to keep an open mind based on the person rather than their age".

If the original comment had been against the younger generation the answer would have been geared towards defending them.

As it was geared firmly at the older generation the response was geared in that direction.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Sorry Shaun, my comment was very much tongue in cheek, but I accept it's hard to put across on forums at times.

On a serious note, I accept that discriminating against anyone (except maybe idiots, of which there seem to be growing numbers) is not a good thing. I have a friend who tells me if I'm going to say something about a group of people to replace the group with the word 'Jew' and if it makes me cringe, don't say it. Unfortunately my mouth sometimes goes up to 5 times faster than my brain.

Kris

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Sunday 13th of November 2011 08:56:23 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

No probs and totally understand about the failings of the medium in order to convey the sentiment behind a comment. (I've certainly fallen foul of that one a few times myself on here!)

Actually, on the idiots line. There's a great one liner :

"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large numbers".

My boys having issues at school at the moment because I've pretty much taught him properly and others including teachers know less about some subjects than he does.

I've actually lost count now of the times that the teachers have been wrong and my boys been right. (Latest one was the teacher telling the class that a trebuchet was a form of seige bow!!!).

Now the entire class get marks for getting it wrong and Peter gets marked down for refusing to agree with them and correctly referring to it as a form of catapult (Seige bows being Ballista's).

That's only a minor example but the point behind it is that ten people believing that something is right does not make the person who disagree's with the group the one that must be wrong.

Unfortunately most of the time at the moment is spent teaching him to stand up against what he's being taught at school rather than teaching him new stuff. Must admit to times where I feel like pulling him from school and teaching him myself but then who would pay the mortgage.

Whoa, sorry, just went totally off piste there. Sorry about that. The frustrations of single parenting boiling over I'm afraid!

NikkiJ · Veteran Member

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
Do you think 3 or 4 clients would abandon you? How much do you think it would cost to enforce such terms?

Personally, I will not be wasting money creating such terms or trying to enforce them, I'll be working to provide the best possible service to ensure my clients choose to use me.

Guess it's 2 sides of the same coin. I suppose the other point is why would the bookkeeper you have outsourced to have any contact with your clients?

Kris

That's a very good point, and honestly, I have no clue about the cost. I'm nowhere close to outsourcing so wouldn't have a clue about how I would even go about getting something like this drawn up... I just find it interesting that we are quick to put things into place to ensure those more qualified than us aren't going to poach clients, but we can't say the same for those at the same level. I don't think the bookkeeper would have contact with the client, but they would have their details... Im paranoid about other people not doing as good a job as me or have the same professional ethics as me. I don't think 3 or 4 clients would abandon me, (as far as I'm aware I'm good at what I do...

) but that's good old paranoia again! Haha!

fabs79 · Senior Member

I think outsourcing is not all about making sure that your clients are not poached. One element to think about when drafting any agreement for outsourcing work is liability. I'm assuming that the bookkeeper you engage is qualified and also bound to comply with MLR. They would need a declaration from you that due diligence on the client was done by you and they can rely on it rather than doing their own again.
Also what are the terms of you professional indemnity insurance? It is unlikely to cover work done by somebody else on your behalf, so they would also need to have their own PII.

All this adds a layer of bureaucracy to the outsourcing task.

Just a thought...

Fabs

TMe668 · Veteran Member

ClareB4 wrote:
I also would be reluctant to take on an older person as I operate a lot with technology and would think that perhaps an older person would struggle with that.

Ageist? What do you think? If I assumed asian people are good with computers and black people aren't, and so decided not to hire black people, would that be racist? What else could you possibly call it?

Most of the youngsters I deal with are great at playing games or spreading gossip on FaceBook with their cell phones, but can't format a Word document or write a simple formula in Excel.

I'd interview for computer skills rather than making assumptions base on age. Even when broad, sweeping generalizations are valid, they have nothing to do with any one, specific person.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I thought the ageist thing was done to death and a line drawn under it.

Kris

TMe668 · Veteran Member

Instead of outsourcing the bookkeeping, why not hire an assistant to do a lot of the data entry? I usually find that entering all the receipts and invoices eats up a lot of my time. That's something I can train an unskilled person to do in less than an hour. As long as we're working in the same office, I can answer any questions that come up, and that saves me a whole lot of time. Of course, you'd have to be comfortable in a supervisory role in order for that to work.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

The biggest problem with that is you then need employer liability insurance, a desk for them to sit at, another computer, get yourself up to date with employment law, payroll to run, increase in the professional indemnity insurance..... This is sometimes a lot of trouble for what might be seasonal and a few hours.

Kris

TMe668 · Veteran Member

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
I thought the ageist thing was done to death and a line drawn under it.

Oh no, it's still alive and kicking. But what do I know? I'm "over qualified."

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

can we draw the line then?

Spamkebab · Expert

________________________________________________________

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Friday 18th of November 2011 03:51:19 PM

Don Tax · Expert

Nice edit ;)

Spamkebab · Expert

Hehe theres only me who has to edit a straight line, they definately broke the mould after they made me.

Don Tax · Expert

lol - sorry couldn't resist.

Spamkebab · Expert

It's pick-on-Neil day. Your time will come Timbo lol

TMe668 · Veteran Member

Yeah, I just had to put in my two cents because lately I've been running into people who assume I can't use a computer because I have grey hair, and I keep dealing with youngsters who think they're Bill Gates but keep asking me for help every time they need to do anything with a PC.

But my comments were pretty much redundant.

Spamkebab · Expert

If Clare were to employ my Gran then she would have her work cut out for her, i caught her trying to turn the telly over with my mobile the other day. If i had grey hair i would get a blue rinse, always wanted to know what them ladies gossip about.

ClareB4 · Senior Member

Once again, apologies if my comment upset anyone - it was not intended to be ageist. However the flip side is that I wouldn't employ someone very young either - for totally different reasons. However in the main I think it's fair to say that a lot of older people do not have the computer skills required for a technical practice. Each person has to be taken on their merits and when reviewing CV's in a previous life I didn't even look at date of birth but only at experience and qualifications. If a younger person's CV didn't include any technical experience or qualifications I wouldn't even interview them.

Now I've responded can you draw that line again Neil ??

Oh and I won't be employing your gran, I dread to think who she was calling on your mobile when trying to find Dickinsons Real Deal!

ClareB4 · Senior Member

Back to the original topic anyway, I will not be around when I need someone to carry out work for me as I'll be on maternity leave, so having someone inexperienced who needs to ask me questions is not going to work. I've come to the conclusion that I need to have baby (after 31st January) and work with one hand on keyboard and one hand feeding baby (not sure how the nappy changes will work but there's sure to be a techy way of solving that one) wihtout employing anyone or outsourcing

Control freak - me?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Surely then, you will be there? And you can engage someone part time and you can work part time. You'll be there to answer question (because you'd be there all the time anyway from your last post) but only need to do half the time.

Kris

PS Hope that makes sense. It did in my head when typing it.

ClareB4 · Senior Member

I know what you mean Kris, but my office is only big enough for one person - think my head is going to explode thinking about options!

gbm · Guru

The outsourcing issue is an interesting one, and I suppose it comes down to your business model. There are pro's and con's for both outsourcing and having employees. I personally prefer to have employees as it feels more comfortable.

Don Tax · Expert

Now might be the ideal time to 'let go' a bit, Clare. Buy a load-hailer and shout instructions across the hall. Perhaps they'll be ready to work on their own when you're back.

I always offloaded the batch-work; data entry that could be shown once and might be remembered next month/quarter/year.

This time I'll be offloading the job that irks me most - printing and binding. It's my own fault; I always personalised (inconsistent) with reports - Ratio's, cash-flow, bank rec, charts etc, combinations, none of the above and more besides. Similar with the tax returns. It does make me proof-read things though, which is why I've not farmed it out before. Tried to do away with page numbers as a simplification toward this end but our current tax program insists on them. Any suggestions gratefully received.
Tim