p11d expenses on self assessment - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

lor · Guru

p11d expenses on self assessment

gbm · Guru

Yes, on the employment pages

RobRJBS · Senior Member

On the employment pages of a Tax Return you would include the P11D for an individual.

Let me know if you can't see where to include this with details of the benefits and I will provide more information.

lor · Guru

thank you for your replies I will be looking at this one towards the end of the week. So busy at the mo.

lor · Guru

another question, this client wasn't self employed, he was employed with p11d expenses, owned a property in brief, can he still claim for accountancy fees (my fee) and where would this be on the return?. Also can he claim for things like use of home for business ie. the nominal £3 per week?.

Thank you in advance.

Also just to check, medical insurance and company car are both taxable benefits?

-- Edited by lor on Monday 12th of December 2011 08:58:48 AM

gbm · Guru

Medical insurance and company car are both taxable expenses.

YLB-HO · Guru

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the questions you are asking a pretty basic stuff for someone who is supposed be qualified and licenced in Personal Taxation as they are specific to personal taxation!

I am normally the first to say to people go for it as if you have the knowledge but not the qualifications, but if you have to ask that many questions about BIK and allowable expenses for an employee in order to complete a tax return perhaps you should do a refresher course or not do this type of work as you don't seem to have much knowledge.

MarkS · Expert

Would second Frauke's comments.

I am amazed by the number of people who are supposedly offering services in accounts and tax to the general public who ask the most basic of questions on here.

Especially if they are qualfied is even more worrying.

alfie · Veteran Member

MarkS wrote:
Would second Frauke's comments.
I am amazed by the number of people who are supposedly offering services in accounts and tax to the general public who ask the most basic of questions on here.
Especially if they are qualfied is even more worrying.

Yes I agree the queries on p11d are very basic, and I do see too much of 'very basic' stuff from qualified people.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I'm going to let this thread slide but just a quick reminder not to allow comments to become too personal as I don't want this site ending up where people are affraid to ask questions.

On the wider subject of qualified people (assuming that's aimed at accountants) as a generalisation rather than looking at specifics.

With AAT the two tax papers at level IV are optional papers.

With ACCA, Taxation is compulsary at the skills level but advanced taxation, as with AAT is optional.

Accountancy texts for taxation, which are considerably more detailed than those for bookkeeping, tend to look at the calcualtions happening under the bonnet rather than the specifics of HMRC returns. The knowledge that one acquires is supposed to prepare you to argue with HMRC on behalf of clients.

In this instance there is obviously a gap in Lorraines knowledge but we should be looking to help her fill that knowledge gap rather than punish her for asking the question.

Now come on fella's. It's almost Christmas. Bit of good will to all men (and women).

kind regards,

Shaun.

Don Tax · Expert

Don't worry too much which expense goes in which box, it's like putting square pegs in round holes half the time and I've have used 25, 26 and 27 in the past. Instead, attach the accounts and file with the Return.

Peasie · Expert

I'll add my tuppence worth. I have a qualification from the ICB regarding the completion of Self Assessment Tax Returns. And now I'm going to ask a question which is probably at the basic level. It is actually the question asked above regarding the fee for completing the tax return. I'm of the opinion it shouldn't be allowed on the return as it is a personal expense rather than a business expense. However. when I quote my price it is an all in monthly price which would include completing the tax return and the bookkeeping. So I would be inclined to include the full amount on the tax return.

What's others opinions?

ADAS · Guru

Hi Peasie,

If the client is a sole trader then I would include the full amount. However if the client is a director of a ltd company then I wouldn't.

Some useful info.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/emmanual/em9010.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/BIM46450.htm

I'm sure others will disagree

RobRJBS · Senior Member

I am of the opinion that with regards to fees if the fee is in respect of a personal tax return then this would fail the wholly and exclusively test so would not be allowed but any element of the fee in respect of say producing rental income would be allowable against retal income.

With regards to the comments about the questions being asked, none of us know everything and that is the purpose of the forum. To obtain advice when we have gaps in our knowledge.

Lor may be an expert at company tax and have no experience in personal tax so shouldn't those of us with experience be helping her so when we need help somebody else will do the same for us?

Lor don't take the comments made personally, we all need to start somewhere and until you have enough experience there are people here to help.

A lot of the time a client will not be interested in what you can or can't do for them, after all if that were the case we would all be out of business and the big 4 accountants would clean up. It is the person and their ability to sell themself that counts. Our clients like and trust us that is why we are in business.

ADAS · Guru

Hi Rob

Can I ask your opinion at to what this means.

"In strictness any additional fees incurred for computing and agreeing the tax liability on trading profits are not allowable. There is, however, a longstanding practice of allowing normal recurring legal, accountancy etc expenses incurred in preparing accounts, or agreeing the tax liability, see SP16/91 reproduced at EM9010. This has been approved by the courts as a reasonable response to the practical difficulties of apportionment, see Lord Porter on page 288 and Lord Simonds on page 292 of Smith's Potato Estates Ltd v Bolland [1948] 30TC267 (see BIM37850)"

I understand that the area of fees is often debated and when I asked an accountants opinion, he pointed me to the BIM I quoted.

The explanation I was given is that the cost of preparing non trade tax liabilities e.g. directors, CGT would as you said fail the "wholly, exlusively" test but was accepted for sole traders.

Perhaps I'm missing something, after all it wouldn't be the first time.

-- Edited by ADAS on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 12:35:02 AM

ADAS · Guru

RobRJBS wrote:
Lor don't take the comments made personally, we all need to start somewhere and until you have enough experience there are people here to help.

__________________________________________________

I also think a willingness and desire to learn is important.

RobRJBS · Senior Member

Tony

I think the point being made here is that if an accountant prepares the accounts, tax computation based on the accounts and tax liability for a sole trader it is difficult to split the fee (as the accounting profit and tax return are linked) so HMRC accept that it is all allowable.

For a company the fee for a directors return is identifiable as it is not connected to the company profits as a sole traders profits would be so this can be split out and is therefore not allowable.

The same goes for CGT etc.

In practice the wording on an accountants invoice can make all the difference. If HMRC can identify work done solely on a persons tax return and it can be split from the cost of preparing a set of accounts I believe HMRC would be in their rights to challenge and disallow it.

Spamkebab · Expert

I am actually glad that someone commented on being able to ask whatever questions you like on this forum. After reading Fraukes post i was, let's say, a little confused especially after one or two other people backed him up. My initial reaction was one of "how can this not be taken the wrong way as there is only one way to take it and to me it seems wrong". The trouble i had then was the fact that i have gained quite a lot of respect for quite a lot of you and for someone to be shot down like that was a total surprise. I think it's been said on one or more occasions on this forum that anybody who is willing to march off and search for the answers, knowing where to look for certain answers and trying their hardest to accomodate the client is doing their job properly. I was going to post sooner but i was left in such a tiz that i didn't know if i knew what i was talking about! After just scratching the surface of the knowledge required to be a competent bookkeeper i would say it is easy to forget simple information that you don't use on a daily basis and would think that posting a quick question on here would be less time consuming than waiting 'til you get home to dig out your old handouts and study materials.
I am just trying to point out that everyone on here are at different levels in their studies or careers and any questions asked and answered would help people like myself (who is realtively new to bookkeeping) no end. But to see negative comments puts me off asking.

Peace on earth

Neil.

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 07:55:32 AM

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 07:59:08 AM

MarkS · Expert

I am all for people asking questions.

But what i very much am surprised at is the question of "is a company car a taxable benefit" from lor. This is the type of question you would expect from a student not from someone who is offering services to the general public.

Anyone who holds themselves out as being "qualified in personal tax" should know this.

From an accounts viewpoint it is as basic a question as "is an asset a debit or a credit".

Not a personal attack on lor just a general comment.

Don Tax · Expert

In fairness, the question was tacked on to the end, and pre-faced with "also, just to check". Truth be told, it didn't only ask about a company car and I read it as seeking reassurance than a witless question.

Bet we've all asked things we already know about, wanting to check. I only have to shout loudly for someone to hear and prevention is better than cure.

betty121 · Senior Member

Hi everyone,

I'm just studying the ICB level 3 self assessment diploma at the moment and am learning very quickly that tax law is very much open to interpretation. I'm not suprised people ask questions they probably already know the answers to just looking for reassurance.

I hope when I set up my business in the new year I can still put questions to the forum however basic they may seem to others. As others have already commented on, I think the most important thing is that the questions are being asked rather than just going ahead regardless. I hope Lorraine is not put off posting again by this.

Elizabeth

ADAS · Guru

Thanks for replying Rob, I hope you understand it was a genuine question and I was concerned I'd been advised wrongly.

RobRJBS · Senior Member

No worries, happy to help if I can. It's always good to get others perspective on things.

YLB-HO · Guru

Sorry Shaun for posting this.

As I said - "please don't take this the wrong way", as I also don't want to discorage anyone from posting quesions and I certainly didn't mean to punish Lor. I just aksing if she should be doing this type of work until she gained more knowledge. There were just too many basic quesitons on BIK, and too many were not just "looking for advice".

Also my main reason for starting this, was that Lor did include in her signature block the following:

"Qualified & Licensed in PERSONAL TAXATION, Financial Accounting, Payroll, VAT & Bookkeeping"

If she had put "Qualified & Licensed in Financial Accounting, Payroll, VAT & Bookkeeping", I would have been more understanding. As I am wrong in thinking she passed the AAT Personal Taxation module, or does the AAT allow members to state they are Qualified & Licenced when they are not?

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Thursday 15th of December 2011 02:53:03 PM

RobRJBS · Senior Member

Frauke

It is my understanding that you don't need any formal qualifications to be an accountant and trade as such.

I also believe you can obtain the AAT qualification without doing the personal taxation module?

I am sure personal tax is only a small part of the service Lor has to offer so I really don't see what your issue is.

She can trade and offer any services she sees fit and the purpose of this forum is to help other accountants and bookkeepers not to make others feel bad for asking a question.

lor · Guru

Only just got back to this thread today, with hindsight it is a stupid question considering my signature, sorry.

I won't be put off by it though, as this forum is amazing for help.

Sometimes I do ask silly questions, but I tend to struggle at the mo with time, as I am working Full Time and also trying to grow a business. Sometimes it is quicker to post on here and get an answer that way. Also doesn't my silly questions also help others who have the same type of query.

Another thing I find, even though I am qualified and experience in certain area's, I don't know everything and sometimes forget a few things. Sometimes I think it for re-assurance.

Also I don't like conflict too much so don't want to get in to that. But this thread has started to turn into a AAT Forum nasty bitching thread, where the OP is afraid to post ever again!.

Spamkebab · Expert

Personal Tax and Business Tax are optional papers at level 4 AAT. You can be fully qualified after taking the Audit and Credit Control papers instead. They're all nasty exams if you ask me lol.

When you're smiling, when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with yoooooooooo!

Neil

alfie · Veteran Member

lor wrote:
Only just got back to this thread today, with hindsight it is a stupid question considering my signature, sorry.

I won't be put off by it though, as this forum is amazing for help.

Sometimes I do ask silly questions, but I tend to struggle at the mo with time, as I am working Full Time and also trying to grow a business. Sometimes it is quicker to post on here and get an answer that way. Also doesn't my silly questions also help others who have the same type of query.

Another thing I find, even though I am qualified and experience in certain area's, I don't know everything and sometimes forget a few things. Sometimes I think it for re-assurance.

Also I don't like conflict too much so don't want to get in to that. But this thread has started to turn into a AAT Forum nasty bitching thread, where the OP is afraid to post ever again!.

The remark I made about basic questions were not meant to be in any way nasty. I aplogise if it was taken that way.

-- Edited by alfie on Thursday 15th of December 2011 04:50:06 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi,

sorry, know that I was logged in but I've been doing the ACCA feedback for the last half an hour so not been looking at the posts.

Don't stop posting and don't ever be afraid to post. As you identified your asking questions makes this an excellent resource for anyone in future to find the information that they need.

The forum that I was thinking of was Accounting web. Not visited the AAT one so I'll just take your word for it that that one is similar.

The only other forum appart from this one and accounting web that I've had experience of is Opentuition. I don't actually know which is worse. The AW site where you risk being ripped a new one or the OT one where people just ignore your questions if you're not in their clique.

My response above asking for people to calm down a little wasn't actually aimed at Frauke whose comment seemed to be put in a fair manner but rather that after the comment others joined in which teatered on turning into a witchhunt and that would have taken any poster aback.

I try to keep us a freindly site where people can ask absolutely anything free from fear of ridicule.

We're never going to keep to that objective all of the time but as a rule I think that this is the freindliest and most helpful site available for people in our line of work... And I'll delete anyone who disagree's with me (JOKING!!!!).

Keep asking the questions and keep up with the helpful and constructive responses. Don't be afraid to ask or say anything but always try to do it thinking how you would feel with the response if you were the one who had asked the question.

Just to emphasise.

I don't think that anyone really overstepped the mark but it was teatering upon it when I passed my first comment which seemed to have the desired effect.

hope that's now settled matters,

kind regards,

Shaun.

YLB-HO · Guru

lor wrote:

Another thing I find, even though I am qualified and experience in certain area's, I don't know everything and sometimes forget a few things. Sometimes I think it for re-assurance.

Also I don't like conflict too much so don't want to get in to that. But this thread has started to turn into a AAT Forum nasty bitching thread, where the OP is afraid to post ever again!.

I'm sorry but this was not my intention.

I don't know everything either, but I would never dream of offering to do things I do not really have any idea on how to do it. Again, please I'm not being bitchy, I was trying to have a constructive discussion on the merits.......... better not say what I am thinking in case its is taken the wrong way again......

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Thursday 15th of December 2011 05:18:50 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Frauke,

as I say above, I don't think that there was anything wrong with your first comment. I just thought it was out of character for the site when others took up the torch against one of our own.

My appologies if you felt that my informal reprimand was aimed at yourself, it really wasn't. It was just a general comment asking people to think what they were doing as I would really hate for this site to become like some of the others out there.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

lor · Guru

Spamkebab wrote:
Personal Tax and Business Tax are optional papers at level 4 AAT. You can be fully qualified after taking the Audit and Credit Control papers instead. They're all nasty exams if you ask me lol.

When you're smiling, when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with yoooooooooo!

Neil

Yeah I did audit and credit control, college didn't give a choice.

lor · Guru

YLB-HO wrote:
lor wrote:

Another thing I find, even though I am qualified and experience in certain area's, I don't know everything and sometimes forget a few things. Sometimes I think it for re-assurance.

Also I don't like conflict too much so don't want to get in to that. But this thread has started to turn into a AAT Forum nasty bitching thread, where the OP is afraid to post ever again!.

I'm sorry but this was not my intention.

I don't know everything either, but I would never dream of offering to do things I do not really have any idea on how to do it. Again, please I'm not being bitchy, I was trying to have a constructive discussion on the merits.......... better not say what I am thinking in case its is taken the wrong way again......

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Thursday 15th of December 2011 05:18:50 PM

the thing is I do know what I am doing apart from the odd little doubts. Maybe I shouldn't have put nasty or bitchy to explain it, I was a bit shocked lol.

lor · Guru

All forgiven now anyways, no offence taken!. Life's too short to worry,