Training as a Book-keeper - Newbie help? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

mhf67 · Newbie

Training as a Book-keeper - Newbie help?

ghis · Senior Member

Hi

Welcome to the forum.

As you and your wife have experience in book-keeping and your goals are to work for yourself it's worth going down the ICB route. You don't have to go through a training provider, you can register for membership with ICB directly and buy study materials for the course once your ready for exams you contact ICB to book exams- fees apply. Much cheaper than going through training providers.

Good Luck

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the forum!

You can find a list of recommended ICB Distance Learning Providers here: http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/where_to_study/distance_learning

Sorry you received confusing advice, there are plenty of providers to choose from on that list so give some of the others a call.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi James

But one has to ask why is HLC still on the ICB list considering all of the negative feedback that one reads online about their prices, their dubious sales techniques and the quality of their materials?

Just do a search of the site to try and find one positive comment about HLC and it's not like they don't get mentioned very much!

I personally have no experience of them but just go on what people post on here so this post is representitive of general (and somewhat overwhelming) opinion rather than my own.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Mark,

welcome to the forum and the nightmare of choices as to the best training providers / supervisory bodies etc.

ICB is an excellent choice of supervisory body for your purposes (as would also be IAB).

The training providers that always get mentioned in a good light on the site are :

Premier Training
Training Link
Ideal Schools

(there's no priority order to that list).

Considering that you are coming to this as a pair with some experience in the field a good approach might be for at least one of you to self study rather than use a training provider which will pretty much halve your costs straight away.

The one doing the course can then dictate what should be being studied at any time during the studies.

The ICB exams can be sat to suit yourselves. Some of the exams are sat at home and others at a centre. All of the papers can be paid for online direct from the ICB so the only involvement of the trtaining provider is actually teaching you and everything else can be done beyond that.

As an alternative to a training provider also look at the Open University introduction to bookkeeping course (B190) and the AAT ABC bookkeeping course (not to be confussed with the full AAT qualification).

These two courses are effectively the same course as both of them originated from the EQL bookkeeping course although the materials around the course are quite diferent between the two.

Any help or guidance that we can give you on the site please don't hesitate to ask as there is generally someone around to offer a helping hand.

Do note however that the contributors to the site are for the most part bookkeepers and accountants in practice so the answers will come but may not be immediate as paying work keeps getting in the way of forum time!

Hope that this has helped a little. Have a read around the site as it's a real goldmine of resources for new and experienced bookkeepers alike.

kind regards,

Shaun.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Shaun,

I do not want to start another argument over training providers, however, most of the real complaints on here are from over 4 years ago, and are not actually about HLC, but rather a separate college they passed some tutoring work onto some years ago.

At the time (around 2008) the ICB dealt with the complaints and HLC brought tutoring back in house. HLC is now under new management and has changed quite a bit.

HLC courses are now written and tutored by ICB members. Therefore the quality is high. You can meet these tutors at ICB events (if they are near where the tutor lives).

I have said it before but I guess I have to say it again biggrin :

ICB works on figures and facts. That includes:

Success Rate - has to be high, fall below ICB standards (which are very high) and accreditation will be removed

Number of students going back for more courses (as %) - good indication of student satisfaction - again needs to be high

Number of complaints in - complaints should not happen, but it is impossible to have 100% happiness - have to be dealt with quickly and action has to be taken to stop it happening again.

The ICB has removed accreditation from colleges for failing to meet the high standards, some colleges larger than HLC before you start biggrin .

The ICB does monthly statistics and if anything is wrong the college is contacted, but luckily this is rare.

HLC is accredited by not only ICB but also AAT and IAB, amongst other bodies like Microsoft, Adobe, CIM, Comptia etc.

ICBUK · Guru

Oh also I think the bad information given was about an IAB course, which would be regulated by IAB not ICB. It is a new course so maybe HLC are still training their staff.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi James,

hard to believe but I've only been on the site for a little over two years. (Jan 2010.... Seems like a lifetime ago that I joined). And there have been a lot of complaints about HLC published on this site in the past two years.

As you say though, maybe these were in relation to IAB rather than ICB courses.

The complaints written on here have to be fair been more to do with sales techniques and very high prices than with the actual quality of the courses. And as we all know, what one candidate thinks is bad training materials might to someone else make perfect sense.

As for the difference between ICB and IAB courses offered sometimes I think that with some companies it may just be a matter of taking the same training materials and putting a different logo at the top of it! biggrin

I know that Kaplan and BPP do that with AAT / CAT / ACCA / CIMA study texts. Just cutting out the bits that are superfluous to the course requirements. Thats no complaint. It just means that you get the same high level of training no matter which route you have taken to get where you want to be.

If people are properly informed of the alternatives then as a commercial organisation HLC will have no choice but to either drop courses / supervisory bodies or reduce their fee's in order to compete in an open market.

However, at the moment I feel that there are still many people making choices not fully aware of the viable alternatives available from other traing providers or dare I say it, just sitting down with some good books and a bit of self motivation.

kind regards,

Shaun.

mhf67 · Newbie

Hi everyone

Thank you for all of your comments. smile

I hope that I don't start a conflict in relation to training providers, and that is why I deliberately didn't mention the training provider in my initial post.

I appreciate that some training providers will offer more than others in terms of support and the type of software etc that they provide.

In terms of cost, the provider I have been in contact with confirmed that to take either my wife or I to AICB level would cost just under £1,700 .

Does this seem excessive to others who have gone down the ICB route and received support and software from training providers? confuse

Regards

sally-anne · Veteran Member

Good reply there Shaun, in the end I bought a load of good accountancy books and with a lot of motivation I am self studying . Kind Regards Sue

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Seems extremely expensive to me to just attain AICB status.

As an example of the territory that I would be looking in have a look at this page : http://www.premiertraining.co.uk/courses/icb/icb_fees.shtml

So, basically you could get to AICB with computerised level III for under a grand with Premier. (don't forget that as well as the course fees you need to factor in memberships and exam fee's).

Similar story with Ideal Schools except that this one is to MICB status: http://www.idealschools.co.uk/courses/level-i-ii-and-iii-plus-sage-computerised-bookkeeping-sage-instant-accounts-?from=%2fcourses%3fs%3dICB800

And again with Training Link :http://www.training-link.co.uk/section/45/1/icb_bookkeeping_courses/a94ed033a3d6fef7d5209dffd3f1df4d

In fact, for a lot less than the price that you are thinking of paying you dcould get to MICB with Payroll thrown in with any of the above three.

Also don't forget the other options in my first message to you above,

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Sue,

it seems a bit like playing hopscotch on a minefield as I don't want to upset James who I really respect but at the same time occassionally there does seem to be a quantum gap between what the ICB is seeing and what is reported on this site.

Keep on with that book study Sue. You'll be an accountant before you know it wink

mhf67 · Newbie

Hi Shaun

Thanks for the links and advice.

I think that I shall be sending an email to three providers tomorrow after compiling a list of questions.

I will also make a visit to my local Waterstones bookstore at lunchtime.

Regards

Mark

sally-anne · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

I think they do know what is going on with some of the learning providers, but they turn a blind eye, as its all down to money at the end of the day. Kind Regards

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

ICBUK wrote:
Hi Shaun,
I do not want to start another argument over training providers, however, most of the real complaints on here are from over 4 years ago, and are not actually about HLC, but rather a separate college they passed some tutoring work onto some years ago.
At the time (around 2008) the ICB dealt with the complaints and HLC brought tutoring back in house. HLC is now under new management and has changed quite a bit.
HLC courses are now written and tutored by ICB members. Therefore the quality is high. You can meet these tutors at ICB events (if they are near where the tutor lives).
I have said it before but I guess I have to say it again :
ICB works on figures and facts. That includes:
Success Rate - has to be high, fall below ICB standards (which are very high) and accreditation will be removed
Number of students going back for more courses (as %) - good indication of student satisfaction - again needs to be high
Number of complaints in - complaints should not happen, but it is impossible to have 100% happiness - have to be dealt with quickly and action has to be taken to stop it happening again.

The ICB has removed accreditation from colleges for failing to meet the high standards, some colleges larger than HLC before you start .
The ICB does monthly statistics and if anything is wrong the college is contacted, but luckily this is rare.
HLC is accredited by not only ICB but also AAT and IAB, amongst other bodies like Microsoft, Adobe, CIM, Comptia etc.

Can't beleive I missed this topic. With all due respect James, this is nonsense and you know it.

Personally I was ripped off by HLC and mentioned it on here about 2 years ago. You actually replied so you do know about it.

But ICB didnt take it seriously, why? Because I spent my time complaining to HLC (Well you would complain to the person who you had the contract with, wouldn't you?) and at the time never realised I could complain to ICB. Therefore ICB wouldn't recognise the complaint.

I agree whole heartedly with Sally-anne, it all comes down to money, and HLC give ICB far more than any of us.

Kris

OnTheMarch · Newbie

Hi All,

Having just taken the plunge into a study at home course leading to ICB qualifications I thought I'd share my own selection experience.

Firstly, I decided on the ICB qualification mainly because of the flexibility of their examination structure, which, I hope, will lead to a relatively stress free passage through the qualifications. Can exams be stress free???? Also, the support that seems to be available via their own forum looks as though it'll be really valuable.

mhf67, it'll definitely pay for you to shop around. I plumped for a course package that included MICB, payroll and self assessment taxation all for less that you have been quoted. There was also a deal available that means I'll get tuition for the ICB Small Business Financial Control qualification, which I have to admit to know knowing actually existed, free of charge.

Personally, an important aspect in helping me make my decision was in speaking to the different providers and getting a feel for what they could offer me. In the end I went with the provider that provided me with the confidence that they will prepare me properly for the exams, without trying to oversell their wares. Indeed, before I decided on their Career Path option, they advised that I perhaps try a shorter range of courses to test the water with distance learning, as this is my first foray into this method of study.

I am sure that I have made the right decision and look forward to sharing my study experiences with other students, and to picking all your brains too.

Speak later

OTM

Spamkebab · Expert

Well i have made friends with some 'mature' students and 2 of them are still receiving telephone calls and emails 12 months after they initially started looking for training providers. One lady reported inflated costs, rudeness and lack of information and another said she was close to tears. I have also heard of a student getting a solicitor involved within the last 2 years (true story as i know this student quite well now)

Can you name that training provider in one?

Neil

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Nup Neil, I for one have no idea who you are referring to.

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Shaun thanks for your kind words.

Hi Kris, I did expect a response from you biggrin

But again looking at facts:

1, When did you buy your course?

2, Was the ICB aware you were unhappy?

I cannot answer the first for data protection, but you admitted the answer to the second question is No, therefore you cannot blame the ICB for not taking action on something it does not know.

However, other students did inform the ICB of the problems you were having and the ICB took action.

ICB even removed accreditation from HLC until problems were sorted.

You were a very successful student, and the ICB can only judge its training providers on the information it has, so unfortunately as a statistic you were in the positive basket smile

ICBUK · Guru

I said I didn't want to start another training provider argument, I should have been wiser

The ICB has very strict standards, and has removed accreditation from colleges that are larger than HLC in the past, so it is not just about money.

Unfortunately I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall!

How many times, if you are un happy with something, and you don't tell the regulating body, don't expect them to know about it biggrin

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

The point I was trying to make, which I may not have articulated very well was that I was not aware that I should have complained to ICB at that time. Bearing in mind as a student you tend to have limied contact with the ICB and the main contact is with the training provider.

Looking at all consumer legislation you are directed to the person with whom you have the contract, and in this case, that was HLC. I did try to make a complaint to them, but strangely they were not interested.

It was only later when you joined this forum that I realised I could have spoken to ICB but by then you tell me it was too late.

Everyone but HLC was blamed in that case, right through to Stow College who I worked with previously and never had as many problems. There just seems to be a pattern with HLC. A high pressure sell (worse than double glazing), a extremely high priced course, and inferior materials with little or no support.

Kris

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

ICBUK wrote:
How many times, if you are un happy with something, and you don't tell the regulating body, don't expect them to know about it

And when you do you get told it's too late, or they do nothing.

I don't want an arguement either, but your defence of HLC is incredible under the number of people who are complaining about them just on this forum alone.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Kris,

Yeah your right, I guess the ICB should consider doing a course complaints procedure maybe? and pointing this out to students. Something to think about I guess. I will mention it.

The sales technique you mention they no longer do, they used to have course advisors who would visit your house, but they have gone. In fact the ICB received quite positive feedback about them from students and I beleive they went due to more people shopping online and not wanting an advisor anymore.

" And when you do you get told it's too late, or they do nothing." - is that ICB?

I think when you notified me via this forum, your complaint (or similar) was received from other students a few years before, and the problem sorted (via ICB removing accreditation, HLC changing various things etc).

Also since then the HLC company was bought out and management changed etc etc.

So by the time you mentioned it on this forum some years later, unfortunately it was too late to do anything.

ICBUK · Guru

Kris I don't think we will ever agree on this biggrin

Are you coming to the Scottish Seminar?

Just so you know, some of the advisory council studied with HLC and were notified of this forum a couple of years ago and all said they were more than happy with their study experience.

Also a lot of students re study with HLC when they have finished a course, so I assume they are also happy.

Perhaps a college as large as HLC (who claim on their website they train over 50,000 students every year) will have bad experiences, as I said before it is impossible to have 100% happy clients :)

Even a 0.1% angry customer ratio would mean 50 students a year getting upset over something.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You're probably right James, but I reserve the right to berate them at every opportunity.

Unfortunately I'm at court the day of the seminar, I was hoping for a countermand or excusal, but alas it was not to be.

Kris

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Hi

I'm studying for ICB through Ideal Schools, I picked the package which covers level 1-3 plus payroll & self assments, they also give you full software (SAGE Instant Accounts & SAGE 50 Payroll). You can pay a bit more and get SAGE 50 accounts. I'm just finishing Level 2 - got 100% so far on mocks & exams, so the study material is working. I have found the material WAY over prepares you for the exam & I have been flying through them. I have no experience with any of the other training providers, but I am really happy with Ideal Schools

Lyndsey

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Hello everyone.

Been a while since I made a post on here but as a representative of one of the afore mentioned training providers and as this is a forum I would like to add my pennies worth. It is clear for all to see that there are many members who feel that training providers are just about making money, They are not!!!! To be in a position where profit is to be made they (training providers) have to be getting their students through their exams, or eventually a bad reputation will mean no business and no profit.

As a consumer myself I often question why does this item cost ex amount in this shop but twice as much in the shop over the road, and 9 times out of 10 the more expensive an item the more quality it has, this does not apply to distance learning as providers can charge what they want for their services, its a case of this is the price, this is what you get and then it is up to the consumer, this is the case no matter what we buy.

When contacting a provider the potential student should be listened to so the correct advice can be given. ICB now have online mock exams which can be purchased without being a member, I have advised on many occasion that this may be the cheaper option based on the experience of the person I am speaking to. There is not a company in the world that does not get complaints, it is impossible to please all the people all of the time but there are good companies out there, including Training Providers.

I think Bookkeeping and Accountancy courses are a bit different because there are so many rules and regulations that have to be adhered to within the industry and if a total beginner it can be a hell of a lot to take on board. What we have to try to remember is that people have different capabilities and are at different levels, not all will need a training provider, some can self study with workbooks, and some have enough experience to just take exams without a course or revision. The training provider has a responsibility to listen and advise correctly and if in doubt just call the ICB direct.

ICB have in fact put in place very stringent quality practices that ICB Accredited Training Providers now have to adhere to. This can only be a good thing for all concerned; the Institute should be commended for their stance on this.

The route of becoming an ICB member can be done in many ways, training providers use courses and support for those that need it, there in nothing better than finding out a student who has been taught by your company is now running a successful practice and it is this that drives us forward and not profit, that just comes with being good at what you do.

Anyway enough of all that, hope all the regulars are well and all earning loads of dough or coming up with a master plan for world domination. Anyway back to work no rest for the wicked even on a Sunday. All the best.
Dave

-- Edited by TRAINING LINK on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 10:51:57 AM

-- Edited by TRAINING LINK on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 10:53:56 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

TRAINING LINK wrote:
as a representative of one of the afore mentioned training providers

Just to emphasise for anyone who reads the last post without reading through the whole thread Training Link was only mentioned as one of the site recomended trainging providers.

Dave,

I think that we all know that there is at least one recommended training provider (as detailed above) that is flourishing where perhaps they should not.

The issue is that the ICB recommendation combined with people not knowing what they are buying but needing to grab at something often on the back of a redundancy payment makes people make bad choices based on the assumption that if something is more expensive then it will be better quality.

Think fish fingers.

Years ago Nestle made fish fingers for themselves and also for a quality high street names food department. People would buy the more expensive fish fingers on the basis that they believed that due to the store that they were buying it from they were getting better quality.

With training, people don't get to try the various providers before they buy. In this business they often don't get to talk to anyone else who has made the move before them and when they do that person will almost never have had experience of multiple training providers for comparison purposes.

For this reason I think that quite uniquely it would seem that training provision is not subject to the same rules as most products.

It is only through sites such as this where people ask before jumping where we can guide people towards the better training providers as to be honest in the past the ICB's view of one of the training providers has been totally out of line with the experience of the people signing up for it's courses.

I'm sure that it's one thing for training providers to appear as they would want to be perceived to the ICB but quite another to carry that through to the end product.

We are now assured that the double glazing sales techniques of a certain training company have changed and it is very much down to site members to post their actual experiences (Good and bad) for others to judge whether or not such is in fact the case.

I know that the ICB's heart and intentions are in the right place but at the same time they do still sometimes make mistakes.

Sure that we've all worked in departments where everyone knows who does the work but management still promote the wrong people because the perception from above is out of touch with the one from below.

I think that the ICB is in the same situation. They can only go on the information that they have and as has been discussed on here before, people complain to the training providers not to the ICB making them oblivious to issues.

I don't expect you to turn on another training provider as that would be unethical the same as whilst I might argue with another accountant I would defend them to a third party.

All I can say is that it's obvious that from peoples feedback on the site what training link is doing is at the better end of the spectrum so a big well done and keep at it.

We all hope that everyone will be happy with their choice of training provider but I just don't think that enough people read this site before signing up with the really (really, really) expensive one to realise that they are not getting something better simply because they are paying considerably more money for it.

Hope that you have a good weekend Dave,

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. edited for spelling & grammar only

-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 11:48:40 AM

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

Good to hear from you and hope you are well.

My friend you are spot on with your analysis. Point always rears its ugly head when I am on holiday only to find someone who has paid £100s less than me for the same trip, god it makes me angry. Its good that we have choice but to be fair most people get fed up shopping around after the first 2 or 3 companies. In essence those who choose training providers are gaining the same qualification regardless of who they use. Again you are right when members have no comparison to go, for example if you have only studied with Ideal Schools how do you know they are better than Training Link? It really is a case of horses for courses. Shame BKN couldnt start an independent review of training providers and their materials and quality of support for all Bookkeeping and Accountancy bodies.

ICB do make mistakes, as do every company in the world and as does every person in the world, they dont however bury their head in the sand when mistakes are made and always try and move with the times. I dont know if you have attended an ICB conference Shaun but if not then try and make time for this years, be around November time I should imagine, definitely worth attending for networking opportunities alone.

In an ideal world Shaun I could chat off the record but as this is a forum I am afraid I cant, I did know the slant on training providers was not aimed at Training Link but I know a few company owners through meeting them at the ICB conference and I know for a fact they are not just in it for the profit. I have said it before on this forum that we have become Little America and we fall victim to the American form of advertising that makes everything sound so great. Its still good to have choice and the new quality guidelines the ICB now have in place should sort the wheat from the chaff as they say, and one thing I am sure you will agree with Shaun is that eventually the cream will always rise to the top, no matter how many gimmicks others may come up with. The real shame is that it is always the poor consumer who loses out and when all is said and done all they only want is to better themselves or give more employment opportunities.

Also Shaun the Government put a hell of a lot of money into training, as I am sure you are aware a big chunk of this funding comes from the EU. This money has to be spent otherwise if not it will mean less EU funding next time round. There was something in England, still in Scotland and Wales called ILA, this was stripped in England because of an upsurge of new training providers rising from the ashes and claiming this easy to access public funding, eventually the plug had to be pulled and quite rightly so, I know a lot of training companies were prosecuted, others just took the money and ran, never to be seen again. With all the above it is easy to understand why training providers get a bad press, but there is a need for them and only the good ones will have longevity. Government, Greed, and Politics, sounds like Geoffrey Archer novel lol and they only wanted to buy a course lol.

Have a great weekend Shaun, well whats left of it.

Dave

-- Edited by TRAINING LINK on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 12:36:01 PM

YLB-HO · Guru

Like many IAB qualified people I have been too busy working to spend much time on this forum, which is why its taken me so long to see this thread and read through the posts. smile

I read this thread, and was surprised when James said that HLC complaints were against IAB qualification - I quote "the bad information given was about an IAB course". Especially as HLC only do 2 IAB computerised courses (and I could not find any complaints about these course no matter how hard I searched - just about the price). There were lots of complaints about the many ICB courses they did.

IAB courses have approval already for public funding which is why they are offered by traditional UK Colleges which are still public fundied. IAB qualifications get far more exemptions than ICB qualifications in the UK. IAB qualifications can be used for Apprenticeships (which is also public funded) which ICB qualifications can not.

If you want to know the qualification specifications of IAB qualifications try this link: http://www.iab.org.uk/qual_spec.asp

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 07:13:27 PM

ICBUK · Guru

Dear me, still going smile

Frauke the original question on this post was that they decided they wanted to be an AICB (ICB Associate) but the college were talking about IAB, when they asked what they could do with the IAB qualification the college didn't know.

The ICB has had quite a few calls related to this, and we are unsure what you can do with this IAB course certificate, as it seems like you are shown Sage 50, do a test at home, and then the IAB give you a qualification and offer membership.

How does that get funding? Especially as the way things are going you have to be unemployed or younger than 19 to get any funding at all.

The problem with forums are that people who are unhappy are 10 times louder than those that are happy.

I have looked into any complaints, and I have asked people to contact me directly with any, and they seem to be from years ago, since which the company has been taken over and had management change etc.

All training providers receive complaints, but 99.9% of them are not even valid, yet they still go on forums and 'warn' people from buying from them.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

James, can't we just leave this one. You say the same thing over and over, and those of us complaining say the same thing. We never agree or move forward. Why not just let it go?

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Kris,

Yes believe me I want to, seems pointless. However, the main point of my response was to Frauke, secondly to support the ICB team who are being made to look like they are making a mistake which I do not believe they are.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

If you think about it though James, if you bought a training course for Sage and had a problem with the provider would you complain to the provider or Sage?

Or another way you go on holiday, you use company A to get you to a hotel owned by company B. If you have an issue with company A then you complain to them, not the company who own the destination, right?

With HLC it was the same, I bought their services (the travel) to get me to ICB membership (the hotel). I'm not going to complain to the hotel, unless you specifically tell me to in your welcome pack.

Kris

YLB-HO · Guru

ICBUK wrote:
Dear me, still going
The ICB has had quite a few calls related to this, and we are unsure what you can do with this IAB course certificate, as it seems like you are shown Sage 50, do a test at home, and then the IAB give you a qualification and offer membership.
How does that get funding? Especially as the way things are going you have to be unemployed or younger than 19 to get any funding at all.

Dear me, but I am sorry but this is only still going because you are posting inaccurancies and misleading information yet again. The exam is not done at home (unlike all the ICB exams I have been told are done at home by all the ICB past and current Members who have never taken an ICB exam under exam conditions).

This particular qualification gets funding because it satisfies the stringent funding rules for qualifiactions that are in place, none of which bears any resemblance to what you say happens.

I would suggest you contact Sage and ask them about the qualification as they have also given their endorsement and additional Sage certification to candidates gaining this qualification.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Frauke,

What inaccurate or missleading information have I posted?

According to the IAB website and the training provider there are no centre examinations. In fact, if I read it again there are no examinations or tests at all!

You cannot get membership of the ICB without sitting a centre examination, unless you apply for exemption based on APL. Same as any other body.

The ICB used to offer a Computerised membership for people who had done a Level 1 and level 2 computerised course (started in 2003 for the IT boom), but back in 2009 the ICB decided it was no longer appropriate to offer this and the membership agreed. It was therefore phased out. There has been many posts on here about that, and I think it was the right decision and is supported by the majority.

What seems to have happened is the IAB have jumped on this and started offering a Level 1 and Level 2 computerised, moving in completely the opposite direction to the ICB.

The ICB is trying to remove the image that some have of a bookkeeper that they are only data inputters and that the software does all the hard work. They want to do this by requiring practical knowledge before you start using a computer. So the computer becomes an assistant, rather than a reliability.

You may have spoken to those that have not done any centre examinations because when the new standards came out a lot of people who could not pass the mock or actual papers in Manual/Practical bookkeeping resigned/not allowed to renew and moved to the IAB or HMRC.

Despite this the ICB membership is still growing, and so I think this proves the ICB has the right idea.

YLB-HO · Guru

James I don't know what you are reading, perhaps you need to read a little slower, but when I read what was written on the IAB website it mentioned "Study" at home not exams.

I wont list every inaccurate comment you have made about the IAB, but the comment that started me off - "Oh also I think the bad information given was about an IAB course, which would be regulated by IAB not ICB. It is a new course so maybe HLC are still training their staff".

The original post made a comment that "a college" did not give them enough information. This college was not named as HLC or the course or anything else for that matter. But later you automatically accredited it to HLC even though the HLC comments were nothing to do with the original posts - just the fact when you recommended training organisations as they were now considering studying toward AICB that some on this forum felt it inappropriate that ICB was still accrediting them for ICB courses.

All IAB qualifications are taken under exam conditions at any approve examination centre. My own distant learning students take their exams at exam centres which may sometimes be at their local colleges or other place approved as an exam centre AND ALWAYS under exam conditions. (It is a QCF requirement!) I took my L3 Advance manual book-keeping exams at Andover College even though I was not a student there.

I think the comments you say in respect of the IAB are actually comments about the ICB. For example when I click on the Link to Training Link (sorry to drag you into this) which is a ICB (not IAB) accredited trainer they offer the Sage courses in the same way you claim the IAB does! I can find no mention of where exams centres. There is a thread : "icb career path package for sale. inc sage 50/payroll study package and full working sage software" - Not IAB I note but ICB...... Are you sure you are not just typing IAB instead of ICB in error?

ICBUK · Guru

Taken from the IAB website, details on the certificate from the course in question:

Level 1 Award in Computerised Accounting for Business

500/9404/X

No Exam

Level 2 Certificate in Computerised Accounting for business

500/9621/7

No Exam

Source: http://www.iab.org.uk/Download/2011-12-Fees-UK-QCF-4.pdf

Now I might have miss read that, but it definitely says there is no centre examination.

I don't understand the rest of your comment, but a lot of training providers offer modular course options, it does not mean you get membership at the end of it. I think if you rang them they would tell you (as it says on the ICB website) to do at least Level 1 and Level 2 (both manual and computerised).

YLB-HO · Guru

There isn't a single exam, but if you read the qualification specification it says:

To successfully complete the qualification the candidate must pass each of the Mandatory elements of assessment with all units being graded as Pass or Fail. It is the assessor's responsibility to ensure that there is sufficient evidence of all Assessment Criteria to be covered and this will be confirmed through Internal Verifications and External Moderation. These are the same way that NVQ 's qualifications were assessed and awarded, and requires extensive internal & external verification to ensure that the standards are high.

ICBUK · Guru

So is there a centre exam?

Who is the assessor? The college?

TRAINING LINK · Senior Member

Hi Frauke

Certainly not getting into a debate with regards your postings to James. The point is there are pro's and cons with all regulated bodies.

There seems to be some confusion surrounding the IAB courses being offered. We are in the process of putting these courses together as we feel they are exactly what the industry has been crying out for. Details can be found here http://www.iab.org.uk/qual_sage.asp

IAB and Sage have teamed up to create these qualifications. Sage in the past have only been able to offer Certification as evidence of competence and knowledge of the software packages, but by teaming up with IAB and the addition of IAB's manual bookkeeping principles they now have an official QCF (Ofqual) qualification at all three levels.
We have been providing Sage training for over ten years now and the question has always been what qualification do we get, well now students have a choice. It is worth mentioning that the Sage training is based on Sage 50 Accounts Professional and not Sage Instant Accounts which kind of puts to bed the argument put forward by some that Instant Accounts is sufficient in the Bookkeeping and Accountancy profession.

We have been banging our heads against the wall for many years now trying to convince people that it is best to learn Sage 50 Professional rather than Sage Instant Accounts to the point where we have on the odd occasion considered just going like for like with other training providers and reducing the quality and content of our Sage training but it simply goes against the grain with us, and as such we are happy to take less profit in order to ensure our students get the correct level of training rather than a fully licenced version of the cheapest package available from Sage.

We provide Sage 50 Pro training which upon completion students recieve a certificate of competency, this is not to be confused with our ICB level 2 computerised course which although is based on the same training there is no revision pack, mock exam or extra lessons with regards carrying out tasks as required by the ICB. We have even had students thinking they are the same course only to complain when they realise they cannot in most cases get through the ICB level 2 exam.

Again it is the consumer who now has a choice which is great for all concerned as long as the correct information is being provided