Starting up as a part time book-keeper - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

braddlesNZ · Newbie

Starting up as a part time book-keeper

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I don't think the market is saturated anywhere with bookkeepers, yet. BIS said at the beginning of 2011 there were an estimated 2.8 million sole traders in the UK. These people all need to keep records and are faced with a simple choice, do it themselves, or pay someone else to do it. The clever ones pay a bookkeeper.

I wouldn't say its easy to find clients, but its not too difficult. It just takes a bit of commitment.

I don't know much about IAB, but I'm sure someone else will let you know about this one. I have not used ideal school, but I have heard loads of good things about them.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Brad,

welcome to the forum.

Reading through your post it sounds as though your aim is to become an accountant rather than a bookkeeper (filing accounts). This is one of those grey area's that bookkeepers have grown into as it seems that many clients want cheap accountants rather than bookkeepers.

One other thing that comes out of your questions is that you think that this is all about numbers. It isn't. There are some accountancy exams that you don't even need to take a calculator into!

Not to devalue the numerical aspect but there are a lot of law and regulations to memorise before preparing accounts.... And as for tax law... It's like trying to nail a jellyfish to a wall as everytime you think your on top of it the government changes it. Not always in a logical manner.

Lets take your questions in turn.

- Is there much of a market for a Book-keeper in London? i.e. is the market flooded with competition or is it relatively easy to get a few small businesses and limited companies as clients?

Bookkeeping is one of those businesses that a lot of people turn to when made redundant. As such at times it does feel as though there are more bookkeepers than businesses to service.

New bookkeepers often compete in a crowded market on price which tends to force the price down for everyone as clients will invariably go for the cheapest option which at times can damage rather than enhance their business.

When times are bad they are also bad for accountants who will take as much work as possible in house in order to keep their own staff employed.

As mentioned above, All in all clients do not want bookkeepers but cheap accountants able to offer the full spectrum of services. Clients don't appreciate why it takes five to ten years to become an accountant where someone can become a bookkeeper in a year or less!

In short, the market is flooded, rates are often fraction of what training companies say is achievable and this is not a recession proof industry... However, good bookkeepers who love the business will survive and grow but it takes time and a ridiculous amount of study for the return that one receives.

- Will a Level Two IAB qualification (plus registration under the Money Laundering Regulations) be sufficient for me to prepare and submit accounts to HMRC? or do I need a higher level IAB and/or and accountant?

This is a subject matter where the more that you learn the more that you realise that you don't know.

Just read some of the technical debates on here amongst experienced bookkeepers and accountants espechially in relation to complex tax matters and you'll see what I mean.

Let me just pop off and check the IAB Sylabus for what you can expect to be able to do at each level.

ok, I'm back, did you miss me?

Level I - Very basic bookkeeping including an introduction to VAT

Level II - More complex VAT, Basic accounting concepts, Ledgeres, Payroll, trial balance

Level III - Introduction to trading P&L and Balance sheet, categorisation of income & expenditure, maintain records, prepare financial statements for a sole trader

Level IV - Accounts prep for a limited company. Prepare F/S to IFRS, interpretation of F/S

Right, to my mind that's pretty conclusive.without complimentary experience and other qualifications you should not prepare financial statements or tax computation even for sole traders until you have attained level III and for limited companies level IV.

PII insurance will be compulsory in order to attain your practicing certificate and there will be a line in it that states that you will not perform work that is beyond your capabilities which will effectively prevent you from filing accounts or tax returns until you have attained the right level of study, which, to my mind is level IV.

- Is the above school a good place to get this qualifcation? are there any better/cheaper options?

Excellent choice of training provider.

The three which are always recommended on the site are :

- Ideal Schools

- Premier Training

- Training Link

Mostly the courses offered tend to be ICB or AAT rather than IAB. But IAB is an excellent choice of supervisory body and links in well with progress to IFA (institute of Financial Accountants) if you wanted to progress further.

CONCLUSION.

IAB is an excellent institute

Ideal Schools is an excellent choice of training provider.

Level II is not high enough to prepare you to prepare accounts. To my mind you need to complete level IV to offer that service.

The market is crowded and finding clients can be very difficult to start with.

There are many out there who have not made back in fee's the amount that it cost them in training costs.

Sorry if some of the above was not what you wanted to hear.

Good luck in your studies Brad. It will take longer, be more difficult and cost more than you expect but if you take to the subject matter as many do (and many don't!) then I am sure that eventually you will find sucess in this business.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
BIS said at the beginning of 2011 there were an estimated 2.8 million sole traders in the UK.

Hi Kris,

got interupted during my reply so we crossed in the post

did it say how many of those 2.8m sole traders were bookkeepers!

Sometimes around here it feels as though those figures might be 2.7m self employed bookkeers chasing 0.1m real clients!!!!

don't know about your area but around here we have quite high unemployment and it seems that everyone uses their unemployment momey to train to become a bookkeeper.

Actually, thinking about it you may have a somewhat different outlook as I know that whilst work has been virtually impossible to find in England I've had plenty of work coming in from Edinburgh (thankyou Scotland biggrin ).

I really should move to Scotland as since 2007 all of my work for the day job has come from there and actually, the last work that I had in London was for a Scotish bank!

Your going to have to instal those border controls matey as we're taking all of your money back to England at the mo. lol.

Actually, I think that more of it's going to Australasia as I'm sure that there were more Aussies and Kiwi's working there than Brits.

Talk in a bit,

Shaun.

MarkS · Expert

Seems to be plenty of work here in Scotland

Since losing my job in January i started going out to get clients of my own and currently have 21 worth about £15k in income. (everyone that i have met so far has signed up). In the midst of targeting a niche market by mail shot which i hope to get 50-100 clients from worth about £10k - £20k

Also started a full time job in Edinburgh in a CA practice yesterday with a salary in the mid £30ks.

So all being well in a few months time will have gross income of about £60k - £70k though the question is will have the time to fit it all in (only time will tell)

Regards

MarkS

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Congrats on the new full time job Mark.

Fingers crossed some of Scotlands success will filter South of the border as things still seem pretty dire here at the moment.

Main issue that I'm seeing around here in the Midlands is that people with good business accumen can't seem to raise the finance to build their businesses.

In the past the banks have asked for a 50/50 split so people have remortgaged to raise their half of the money but because house prices have dropped by, on average about 35% (although in some area's it's as much as 50%) there isn't the equity to secure the bank loan for the business expansions.

Which of course forms a self perpetuating cycle in that the businesses can't expand, so they can't take anyone on so employment continues to drag England down into a black hole which of course won't do Scotalnd any good if one of your main markets isn't doing too well.

braddlesNZ · Newbie

Hello everyone,

Thank you very much for your replies. From the above it appears that I may need a Level 4 IAB qualification.

One thing that is not clear to me yet is if I intend to be a book keeper for limited companies, can I file the accounts with HMRC or will I need an actual accountant to do this? Are there any other things I might need an accountant for?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Hi Shaun,

I know what you mean about everyone entering bookkeeping. I can see it up and down the country, but my wee corner of these islands doesn't seem as bad as many others. I have a small amount of competition, most of it comes from accountants doing bookkeeping, or online providers.

I think there are about 5 ICB practising members in Ayrshire including myself and Peasie (btw liking the new web presence Peasie. That you advertising now?) but we're all spread out far enough that I dont think we'll be and issue for each other.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

You don't NEED any qualifications to start bookkeeping.

I'd recommend AAT and/or ATT and positioning yourself as an accountant as opposed to a bookkeeper.

We recommend this as the first step http://www.aat.org.uk/qualifications/aat-level-2-award-in-bookkeeping

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
You don't NEED any qualifications to start bookkeeping.

Factually true but incredibly dangerous.

Same arguement can be applied to people not needing any qualifications to call themselves an accountant.

How many times have we seen it on the site where people are able to find their way around sage but don't understand bookkeeping or the basics of accountancy and then get themselves into a real mess.

All in all, if your not qualified or QBE (with considerable emphasis on the experience) then in my opinion you are just a court case waiting to happen.

Alfred · Senior Member

That's right, you may not need qualifications but you need to know what you are doing as well as have a good understanding of the structure involved in bookkeeping. I was working as a sales ledger assistant for years just raising invoices and worked in a large accounting department, could I call myself a bookkeeper or accountant no way as I had no idea of how what I was doing effected anything in the business. The only time I started to understand this was when I worked in a much smaller company where I entered the purchase invoices, the sales invoices, then had to reconcile the bank then do journal adjustments as well as a host of several different things just to understand the practical aspect. Even when I was studying it was hard to grasp the concept until I had the experience, and even though I have years of experience now I still have loads more to learn in order to make me better at my job. Thats one of the reasons why I love this site I can still help where I can while learning something new.

BobHarper · Guru

@Shamus - I agree although if the OP sticks to simple work all they really need to know is a) how to use software b) the VAT rules (which they can always double check with the client's accountant).

This is the problem with the bookkeeping brand; the truth is that it's not that difficult to keep good records for a business and complete VAT returns.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

BobHarper wrote:
@Shamus - I agree although if the OP sticks to simple work all they really need to know is a) how to use software b) the VAT rules (which they can always double check with the client's accountant).

This is the problem with the bookkeeping brand; the truth is that it's not that difficult to keep good records for a business and complete VAT returns.

I couldn't disagree more Bob. I think this is the biggest problem when people try to do their own bookkeeping, just because they can use some software. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had a client come from another 'bookkeeper' who has got a copy of Sage and knows how to use it.

The biggest problem with my clients is that we play this game of them trying to sneak through reciepts for things with aren't allowable expenses. Imaging if you need to pay accountant rates at the year end to find and remove these.

Thats just one problem.

Kris

Hal · Veteran Member

Sorry Bob but I disagree as well.

You may not need qualifications but you do need to know how double entry bookkeeping works.

I know a lot of systems do the double entry for you but if you don't know how the entries should work how can you identify and correct when the system goes wrong.

A good while back I inherited a situation where no bank recs had been done for 7 years, there were duplicate and missing entries a plenty and to cap it all the previous incumbent only produced profit and loss reports so did not notice that the balance sheet didn't balance.

It was relatively easily corrected but it couldn't have been done it you did not know how double entry bookkeeping works.

Hal AFA FFTA

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris & Hal - this is not about people doing their own bookkeeping and it's with the support/assistance of the accountant.

It really isn't that difficult; set the software up correctly, enter opening position, post sales and purchases invoices and against them allocate money in/out. The VAT return is done by the software and there is no need to know double entry.

I know it's possible because we have thousands of clients using our software and they do a bank reconciliation every month, produce their own VAT returns and give their accountant a TB that balances which only takes a few hours to turn into a set of accounts.

Alfred · Senior Member

I do not believe that anybody can do bookkeeping, anybody can enter data into a software yes but it will cost you more money with your accountant to fix all the error done at the entry stage if you can not do the simple things such as identifying a capital asset, a prepaid cost, etc, if these were done at the offset your accountant would only need do the final bits to complete the accounts accurately.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

This is a wind up right?

You're posting on the bookkeepers forum, for bookkeeprs in practice to read that any old muppet can do bookkeeping if they just use a bit of software... Makes me wonder what all that training is actually for!

Do you really believe that people don't need to know anything about where or why items end up in the various places in the financial statements.

Surely you don't really feel that trained and qualified bookkeepers are basically data entry bods which is how the post comes across.

Unbelievable...

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:
This is a wind up right?

You're posting on the bookkeepers forum, for bookkeeprs in practice to read that any old muppet can do bookkeeping if they just use a bit of software... Makes me wonder what all that training is actually for!

Do you really believe that people don't need to know anything about where or why items end up in the various places in the financial statements.

Surely you don't really feel that trained and qualified bookkeepers are basically data entry bods which is how the post comes across.

Unbelievable...

A perfect example would be last years books that have been sent to the accountant, they were done by somebody with no knowledge. £33000 roughly in the suspense, £1600 roughly in the mispostings and the fixed assets have a plethora of items such as carriage and bank charges. Muggins here who started in the new financial year has now been tasked with sorting this, thanks to the accountant frightening my boss with his charges, where as little old me gets paid a hell of a lot less. To say I'm not overly impressed would be an understatement, all because they didn't or wouldn't hire a bookkeeper because they cost too much. I've a good mind to sort it out freelance and charge the necessary.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

We've seen these controversial posts from Bob before. If you wait a minute he'll sell you something to sort it all out. A franchise perhaps.

Bob, you talk some sense with marketing, but in all honesty, I now think you've just lost the plot. You're talking a load of old rubbish now.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

As you state Steve. A perfect example.

Unfortunately a scenario repeated all too regularly on the site where people let loose on a software package create a nightmare that costs twice as much for the client to have unravelled by bookkeepers and accountants who do know what they are doing.

Peasie · Expert

kjmcculloch83 wrote:
I think there are about 5 ICB practising members in Ayrshire including myself and Peasie (btw liking the new web presence Peasie.

I'm not particularly happy with it myself - I hate these sort of things where basically you have to describe yourself and sell yourself. Always have hated it and always will. That and the fact that I'm not too great with the English language (or any other language for that matter).

EDIT : Missed out an 'o' in too - kind of reinforces the fact I'm not too great with the English language.

EDIT 2 : A typo in the edit.

-- Edited by Peasie on Thursday 12th of April 2012 11:23:59 AM

-- Edited by Peasie on Thursday 12th of April 2012 11:24:43 AM

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - not like you to have a cheap shot and I accept you may not like what I say and perceive it as controversial but that does not make it wrong,

@Shamus - no, it's not a wind up and I said software WITH the support of an accountant.

I hope bookkeepers are doing more for clients than processing because technology is getting smarter and new players like Receipt Bank are now to market.

@All - I accept that people do get into trouble (when they are not supported properly) and I could also list lots of examples, but that is not what I am talking about.

The fact is, there are many business owners who properly maintain their books and correctly file VAT returns. However, they have usually invested in training and have the support of an accountant. My point is the OP could do this.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You're right Bob, it's not really like me. But I cant believe the nonsense you're peddling in this thread.

Why then would anyone choose to use a bookkeeper if a bit of magic software and an accountant can do it all for them?

I just cant help but think this is because you've re positioned your franchise recently, and wonder when the sale comes.

Kris

ICBUK · Guru

The ICB has a lot of meetings with software providers who claim they can make bookkeeping easy so that anyone can do it.

Unfortunately it does seem to be mostly salesmen who underestimate what professional bookkeepers do.

It is happening less now, about 5 years ago it seemed we were meeting 1 or 2 a month, so hopefully the word of what professional bookkeepers actually do is spreading.

Hal · Veteran Member

James

On a separate topic - in relation to the ICB legal bookkeeping course I posted the following in the Solciitors Accounts topic.

If anyone is looking at the ICB legal bookkeeping course on the link posted by Peasie.

Just be aware that the SRA Code of Conduct 2007 was replaced by the SRA handbook on 6th October 2011.

So any references to the Code of Conduct or its contents are out of date and the guidance has changed considerably for some areas in the new handbook.

The Solicitors Accounts Rules are also 2011 version now not 1998.

Just thought I would bring it to your attention

Hal AFA FFTA

ICBUK · Guru

Peasie wrote:
kjmcculloch83 wrote:
I think there are about 5 ICB practising members in Ayrshire including myself and Peasie

There are 5 self employed near your town, (within 6 miles of the town).

Ayrshire is quite big though? So I guess there is probably around 5 or so in each town?

I cannot search on County unfortunately, but there are 21 self employed within 20 miles of you, so must be quite a few in the whole county.

249 employed/students within 20 miles.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Hal,

Yes the ICB course is the new, hence why it was delayed.

Just before we were going to launch it, we were told about the changes so chose to amend the course and release, rather than release, then release a new one 2 months later.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Oh oh kris.... 249 potentials creeping up on you.... Wanna buy a sniper rifle? lol

Nicely put about software sales people James.

Personal view is that the the ICB have the learning structure perfect. You learn the manual basics forst, then computerised, then basic accounting skills.

Software should be there to serve us, not the other way around.

All this talk of undermining the excellent work of many bookkeepers with software reminds me very much of the IT industry in the late 80's and early 90's where we were all told that programming would be replaced by code generators.

What actually happened was that you needed to be even more skilled to program the code generators which produced a product that you had to work around rather than it doing exactly what you wanted it to (may TELON rot in one of the many plains of hell).

kind regards,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I don't doubt you are telling the truth James, but I can still only find 5 in Ayrshire. Myself, Peasie, Bespoke Ledgers, Ballantyne Reid and MS Accountancy. Although by area Ayrshire is pretty big, it has loads of wee villages and very few decent sized towns. Most of the bookkeepers seem to be towards Glasgow. It's the accountants we need to fend off with big sticks

Shaun, 249 sounds scary, but hopefully just a small fraction will get into offering their services as self employed bookkeepers. If I'm honest I thrive on the competition and the more high quality bookkeeping services the better for all of us I think.

I suppose I consider myself lucky to have got a foothold in the early years and now I'm happy with the rate of growth. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was just starting out.

Wait for this James..... I agree with you. Certainly about the software, just knowing how to use a package doesn't make you a bookkeeper. I have a diagnostic tool for my car. I plug it into the car and into my laptop and as if by magic it directs me to the problem. But I would never think that makes me a mechanic.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - there are many reasons why someone would choose a bookkeeper over software supported by an accountant but that doesn't mean the person can't do bookkeeping if he is fully trained on software and supported by an accountant.

Like I said, many people who are not trained bookkeepers can do their own books and this principle has nothing to do with Crunchers so why bring it up?

@Shaun - software should be their to serve business owners not bookkeepers, that is why it is getting smarter and why (in my opinion) bookkeepers need to change their business model and move away from being processors that exchange time for money.

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - most people are more than capable of looking after tyre pressure, engine coolant level, oil level, windscreen wipers/fluid and go to a mechanic once a year.

ICBUK · Guru

Ouch, bit mean Kris, I'm not lying! cry

Ayrshire covers just over 1,000 sq miles and has 22 postal towns and 30 postcode districts. If there are 5 in or near your postal town which you say you can find then that means there could be 105 ish in Ayrshire purely by average.

The directory though is not very accurate, there are only 1,810 members in it, which is just over half the actual practice licences. Out of that only 1,568 actually have any information listed, the 242 display only their name and use it purely so clients can confirm they are a member, rather than using it for advertising.

We had 25 people attend the Glasgow branch meeting. Yes I know it is Glasgow, but our experience shows only 11% of people are interested in meetings, and you will only get half of that because some want week days, some want weekends.

It gives you an idea of how many active people there are in an area.

ICBUK · Guru

P.S thanks to Wikipedia, I don't have Ayrshire stats stored in memory biggrin

ICBUK · Guru

Kris just noticed you posted a link in the ICB regional bit about a meeting in Ayrshire.

Might need to be a bit more specific on location, but if you are interested in getting something organised our regional coordinator Ken Bell would love to get in touch.

Shall I ping you his details?

He has set up 22 active member branches, a lot are where there was no or very little activity before as the towns were a little out of the way for the ICB team to get to etc.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

@Bob, I guess it's one of these things. What do they say? Live by the sword, die by the sword. You have spent so much time and effort especially on this forum shouting the Crunchers message that you are Crunchers. Everything you say is deemed to be said by Crunchers. Crunchers has/is changing it's position from bookkeepers to accountants, and your message seems to be changing too. Perhaps it's just me, but it seemed a logical comment to make.

Kris

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

@ James, I did a search on the postcodes of the major towns. Please don't shout at me for doing more than 2 today. As you say though if the directory is not up to date then it means nothing. However I've not found loads of competition from other qualified bookkeepers locally. It seems to be either accountants or the "wee woman round the corner who did her husbands books for years"

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - a bit like you telling the community what you are doing?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You miss my point Bob. Look, you've used these forums for years to market your brand sometimes quite aggressively . You've posed questions that your franchise has the answer to to get some interest and discussion. You've answered questions with other questions which introduces your franchise, and no doubt sold a few in the process. I dont have an issue with any of this.

But you cant be the brand one minute then complain someone mentions the name the next.

Kris

BobHarper · Guru

@Kris - I actually don't know what your point is all I know is that I answered the question asked and you decided to have a pop at me.

I could be wrong but my take is that you are offended at my suggestion that someone can do bookkeeping without studying/professional qualification because that's what you did.

Hal · Veteran Member

Bob

I agree that business software should primarily serve the owners of the business that use it and that you can also be a bookkeeper without any formal qualifications. Same as anyone can call themselves an accountant as it is not a protected term as Solicitor is.

These are givens.

As is the fact that you are marketing your new franchise model including your postings on this topic. Which you are of course entitled to do.

It appears from your franchise documentation that you no longer put value on the brand of "Bookkeeper" and believe the future lies in being an "accountant". You may be right and people who disagree, including myself, may be wrong. But I am not convinced.

I find it odd that you refer to another contributor making a "cheap shot" when you have clearly made in your own terms "controversial" postings to presumably generate response and promote your new franchise model.

Hal AFA FFTA

BobHarper · Guru

@Hal - your views about my posts are noted.

My view about the bookkeeper brand is based on a) what business owners said and b) how accountants treat/view bookkeepers and I could be wrong but I believe bookkeepers should up-skill. And, I believe accountants should as well.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I've kept up with this thread in case it got out of hand but tried not to post too much as I think that my view on matters was quite clear and any further postings would simply be to reiterate things that I and others have already said.

If there had been anything said that was untoward I would have stepped in but I feel that even with a few sentences said in annoyed frustration the overall flow of the thread has been fair and all contributors have made valid points.

My reading is that we have Kris, Hal, James, Steve, Alfred, myself etc. standing in one corner and Bob in the other.

I'm certainly not a believer that the majority is always right but where I'm in a minority I certainly try to consider the situation from the others peoples perspective as I feel that I would want to know that I haven't missed something.

To me the whole arguement seems to be the complete flip side of the ICB stance and is based on devaluing the excellent work of many bookkeepers in the eye's of business owners to the point where those business owners truly believe that they don't need to employ a professional during the year and they can do it all themselves up to the point of involving the accountancy practice to file the end of year returns.

So, considering the above can we expect all future postings to be aimed at pushing the crunchers brand at the cost of other members which lets be honest is not the point of this site or the helping nature of it's members, contributors and general readership.

Bob has the right to push his own business the same as any of us on the site but the proviso is that nothing that one says or does is to the detriment of other members of the site or the profession in general.

This thread has really gone against that and cannot be considered to be in the best interests of the bookkeeping profession but rather some posts seem to have been made with the intention of pushing the Crunchers brand and software which has, from reading the above backfired somewhat.

At the end of the day clients will always have plenty of acquaintences in the local hostelry to convince them that they don't need to bookkeeper. Such sentiment appearing on this site seems only to add credence to such often dangerous advice.

Considering this I really think that Crunchers need to review the stance of their posts on a site which is specifically for bookkeepers with the intention of improving the overall quality, knowledge and reputation of the profession as a whole regardless of a bookkeepers professional body through the help and support of fellow bookkeepers, accountants, training providers and representatives of professional bodies.

This is certainly not the right platform to be pushing perceived alternatives to bookkeeping or in any way devaluing the profession.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Well said. I actually decided to back out when I felt the discussion was going round in circles. I must say though Shaun, you've summed it up well. You appear, as do most posters to echo my views. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with swimming against the tides, it wouldn't do if we were all the same, but I do agree that the crunchers message may have backfired slightly. I'm still not sure if it was said half fun whole ernest, or to muster some support for the new world view. But either way the words balloon and lead spring to mind.

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
My view about the bookkeeper brand is based on a) what business owners said and b) how accountants treat/view bookkeepers and I could be wrong but I believe bookkeepers should up-skill. And, I believe accountants should as well.

Sorry, took too long in forming my message and missed your post Bob.

Knowing quite a few chartered accountants myself I know how bookkeeping and QBE accountants are often perceived but bodies such as the ICB are doing their very best to change such perceptions with some degree of sucess.

This site as well is doing it's bit to improve the knowledge base of bookkeepers and improve the standing of the profession as a whole.

Your arguement seems to be the opposit of this in that you listen to existing perceptions and go along with them rather than attempt to change them.

To quote an old phrase, if your not part of the sollution then you are part of the problem.

Shaun.

P.S. To my mind bookkeeping is a profession, not a brand.

P.S.2 Upskilling assumes that there is improvement but a growing dependancy upon software over knowledge is surely deskilling.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers Kris,

you have no idea how many rewrites that post went through!

I can also understand completely why you had to walk away from the keyboard!

Count1314 · Senior Member

Just to add a little to the discussion. I have 'inherited' more than one set of companies accounts for which the bookkeeping had previously been done.....on Sage....by a bookkeeper (even one provided by the accountant).....and in a HUGE mess. So glad that the bookkeeping had not been done by the owner of the business!

The point is that if certain 'bookkeepers' can get it SO wrong.........then I am sure that the business owner/Director with less time to dedicate to the accounts (even with the help of an accountant with little time to dedicate to such a client/query) could make it so much worse.

I think about double entry virtually every time I enter a transaction which I expect most 'non-bookkeepers' wouldn't be able to do. Once the enter button is clicked.......it's gone!! smile

Of course, there will be diligent owners with time on their hands with accountants that provide great support just as there will be untidy 'bookkeepers'.

-- Edited by Count1314 on Friday 13th of April 2012 11:23:02 AM

BobHarper · Guru

@Shamus - I am not alone; in my corner I have Ron Baker plus the bookkeepers and accountants who has trashed timesheets and adopted value pricing.

Not only do I understand the other corner's point of view, I have been in the other corner and understand how difficult it is to change.

For clarity, let me be clear about my views on the profession. As I see it there are three types of bookkeepers/accountants.

1. Traditional - they base their business model on billing time.

2. Transitional - these use fixed prices but have not really moved away from the time model

3. Alternative - these are firms who have a business model based on value and see time recoding as harmful. This is where Crunchers are.

I am comfortable to be accused of knocking traditional bookkeepers/accountants because I believe the business model is unethical and holds the profession back.

However, for the ones that are transitioning or operate a business model based on value I support them 100%. If they join Crunchers great if not then fine, I will do everything I can to help them.

By the way, my view about the business model does not mean that bookkeepers/accountants are intentionally unethical. Nor does it mean you can't run a profitable practice the old way. I just believe there is a better way for everyone.

I think I have the right to criticise and the fact that you say that ICB are trying to change perceptions means that I have a point.

As for future postings, I intend to share my alternative views and believe they are in the best interest of the profession. You are free to disagree.

Hal · Veteran Member

Bob

I have read many of your posts on here and on Accounting web.

While I may disagree with your point of view on this one; I do find your posts thought provoking and they have certainly lead me to refine and rethink ideas I have had for a practice.

I hope you continue to post.

Hal AFA FFTA

BobHarper · Guru

@Hal - that's the intention and I appreciate you raising your head. Many people don't because they can't be bothered with the flack they can get. Having said that, this forum seems much more reasonable than AWeb. My take on that is that bookkeepers are not arrogant like some accountants.

I'm curious and to what you disagree with?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

BobHarper wrote:
As for future postings, I intend to share my alternative views and believe they are in the best interest of the profession. You are free to disagree.

Bob,

I was suggesting that you change your stance rather than abandon posting.

At the moment you seem however to be doing the equivalent of advertising meat pasties on a vegetarian website.

I've got no time at the moment to bite on the unethical line as I'm just about to take my Mother back home. Fingers crossed I'll be back on the site later to explain exactly why we're not the one's acting unethically and this is just more management consultant corruption of a defined term.

Well, unless the ICB or Kris or one of the others beats me to it.... Talk later,

Shaun.