I work as a bookkeeper at the moment and also do some final accounting tasks. I am ACCA part-qualified from way back. I have contacted ACCA and as soon as I pay amounts outstanding (apparently, I owe renewal fees from a decade ago (!!)), I can re-gister and complete 5 papers to gain the professional cert.
My dilemmas are:
1. how do I obtain the experience required when I am not prepared to work for anyone or under anyone's supervision? How did others get round this bit?
2. Is there any point in completing the papers if getting a practising Licence is near impossible?
3. Also, I can't afford to give up the work I now do as I need the money, even if it conflicts with what I'm allowed to do under ACCA studentship. Is there an above board way of resolving this?
4. Is it worth completing at a time when accountants don't need to be 'qualified' to practise? OR
5. Is it worth completing as some organisations, notably banks, won't lend against accounts prepared by unqualified accountants?
Just for info, I have membership status with UK bookkeeping body and an accounting body and I have a practice licence.
Thanking you all in advance.
Petal
-- Edited by Petal_Me on Monday 16th of April 2012 01:22:16 PM
Right, you may need to review what you are attempting to achieve as you are going to run up against ACCA regulation 8 which will effectively stop you from offering any services beyond bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll work even if you actually offer those services at the moment!
There's plenty of reading material on the site (see links below) but I will first draw your attention to this thread which includes the relevant wording from regulation 8.
1. how do I obtain the experience required when I am not prepared to work for anyone or under anyone's supervision? How did others get round this bit?
You can't get around it.
2. Is there any point in completing the papers if getting a practising Licence is near impossible?
Self satisfaction that you can do it and nobody can claim to be superior to you. The qualification is also transferrable to other bodies who are more than happy to give you a practicing certificate. (I'm transferring to IFA).
3. Also, I can't afford to give up the work I now do as I need the money, even if it conflicts with what I'm allowed to do under ACCA studentship. Is there an above board way of resolving this?
No. See introduction and (1) above.
4. Is it worth completing at a time when accountants don't need to be 'qualified' to practise? OR
But the ACCA study, espechially for the last five modules is second to none even though hald of it you will never use in the real world.
I can't see it lasting forever that the UK remains the odd one out in Europe in that we are the only ones where Accountancy is not a protected profession.
However, at the moment there s no legal reason for you to be qualified.
5. Is it worth completing as some organisations, notably banks, won't lend against accounts prepared by unqualified accountants?
There are other qualifications besides ACCA but to my mind ACCA is the best qualification below chartered. Just a damn shame that they make it neatr impossible to get a practice certificate
Just for info, I have membership status with UK bookkeeping body and an accounting body and I have a practice licence.
Which as mentioned above, as soon as you go back to ACCA the more draconian ACCA regulation 8 takes precedence over all other qualifications preventing you from doing things that you are currently doing.... Crazy isn't it!
Here are a few linked threads which you will find of interest (sorry, I'm all over all of them!) :
There's a nice polished spot on my desk where this has had me beating my head repeatedly against it for years! Welcome to the nightmare Petal!!!
Kindest regards
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you so much, Shaun. My fault really, I should have completed the stuff years ago. Back then, they even exempted me from 4 papers on the back of an education degree in English despite not having any financial experience.
I shall be go through the links straightaway. Thanks again.
The issue with violating ACCA's members in practice requirement is only a factor if you are advertising that you are an ACCA student, as long as you have the authority to provide 'practicing' services elsewhere such as AAT, HMRC etc.
EG If you were an ACA qualified accountant and a MIP, how could ACCA tell you that you can't continue to provide such services ( I know this situation wouldn't happen). ACCA can only prohibit you doing so under the ACCA banner.
Regarding the experience, this links back to my last point. If you are regulated to provide other services beyond book keeping by another body then you could effectively obtain the required experience but how could it be proven?
I think you have a conflict overall and will need to make some sort of sacrifice. This comes back to how serious you are about acheiving ACCA. AAT offers members the chance to provide all the services that an ACCA and ACA provide except for auditing (but obviously it's not as highly regarded).
For the record I done AAT then ACCA (not onto ATT and CTA).
Excellent reply but I think that you are applying logic and common sense where such isn't in anyway associated with regulation 8.
Anyway, sorry to say this but you are wrong. You cannot under any circumstances offer services to the public regardless as to any other body you are a member of. Although practicing certificates with some other member bodies will give you the right to apply for one with the ACCA. (Pretty sure that you can go ICAEW to ACCA... But why would you want to?).
I've spoken with the ACCA twice (#1) and got the same response, if you are registered with them then until you obtain an ACCA practicing certificate you cannot offer services beyond bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll. That's regardless to whoever else that you might be registered with or experience that you had before signing up with them.
As you correctly identify using the ACCA name in your marketing before you have a practice certificate is a complete non starter which makes sense but at the same time not being able to put letters after your name that you've earned (including the three years experience requirement) is pretty rough as it makes you look like an unqualified bookkeeper (although you would be able to get exemption from IFA or IAB so you could use that to prove that you have qualifications).
Rather than guiding you to regulation 8 which as someone who has passed ACCA themselves I am sure that you know inside out, can I guide you to this link which I feel clarifies the ACCA position quite well even though it doesn't give a specific example for this scenario :
Worth noting. Even registering as an agent for tax purposes is strictly prohibited!
One keeps thinking that the ACCA are going to change their stance but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on the ACCA's to do list yet (although James (ICB) let slip a snipet on information that there may be some hope of a change on the horizon).
Personally I would love nothing better than to be able to remain with the ACCA even if I can't use their letter but I know that it's not going to happen with the rules as they are at the moment.
Hope that this disagreement with your post comes accross in the freindly and constuctive way that it's intended,
Kind regards,
Shaun.
#1 as I didn't believe the person the first time...Too much speaking with HMRC so know that if you want a different answer just phone a different person.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I'm one of those people who never stops hoping that responses such as yours could be right so I've just had a search around over on accounting web and found the exact scenario (AAT/ACCA) which unfortunately confirms my answer was the correct one. (One of those scenario's where I would love to have been wrong).
All in all, if your ACCA without a practicing certificate an AAT practicing certificate (or any other bodies for that matter) means absolutely diddly squat to them.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
When you do your next search take a look at the ACCA Disciplinary records and see how many ACCA members were disciplined for being a ACCA member (or even ACCA student) and holding a practice certificate with another professional body.
I wouldn't know where to start to find the disciplinary records? Don't suppose that you have a link do you?
In the old days they used to be shown in studnt accountant every month but that seems to have fallen by the wayside (pretty much along with the magazine since it went electronic).
Is what you are saying that ACCA are turning a blind eye to the practice? Do you know of anything written to suggest that such is an official policy?
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
You know I have said in the past I have said I knew a lot of ACCA members (and students) who have practiced via the IFA. Also I once had a conversation about the number "time barred ACCA members" who practiced with the IFA).................. (the term was told to me by someone at the ACCA some years ago).
Its not that they turn a blind eye, it more a case of practicalities. If you want to practice through one professional body, there is nothing to stop you from being a member of another professional body. You just can't tell anyone if that body formally says you can't be a member and practice with them. If you don't tell anyone you are a ACCA member when you are one, then no-one can actually discipline you for being a member while being in practice with another professional body.
This is because its not being a member thats a problem, it telling anyone that you are. It has to become public knowledge to become a disciplinary matter, as to start a complaint someone (normally a member of the public) has to submit a formal complaint.
It is very difficult to word rules so they cannot be misconstrued. This is why no-one will tell you that you can be a member and practice with another body - just in case you misinterpret the advice and tell everyone that you are a member who also has a practice certificate with another body - which of course you can't because that would be against the rules.
Mmm, I can see what your saying but that's working to the principle that if you don't get found out your ok rather than it actually being ok with the ACCA.
I think that if your time barred (i.e taken more than ten years to pass the exams) then basically your no longer ACCA anyway unless you start the qualification again so in that instance moving to IFA would make complete sense as I could not see there being any possible repurcussions.
Thank you very much for posting that response as it does make a lot of sense the way that you phrase it even though strictly speaking it is at odd's with the rules as written.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Not sure where this post is going, but in response to Shauns comment about there being hope on the horizon:
Yes, but professional bodies take a long time to change their rules.
At the moment apparently it is a grey area (I personally agree with you Shaun) and some have read it and understood it to mean something else, and appear to have confirmation from ACCA.
According to the ICB's annual survey (http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/MyICB/Survey.aspx?sid=119) currently of those that have answered it, 5.1% are also with the ACCA.
I cannot see the ACCA openingly cutting off an obvious stream of students.
Of course some of those have gone the other way, were ACCA then retired and are retraining with the ICB to become part time bookkeepers.
Thanks everyone especially Shaun. I spoke to ACCA and I was told ACCA students and those not yet in receipt of a PC CANNOT offer accounting services whether or not they refer to ACCA in any shape or form in their profile/marketing. Their rationale is that ACCA wants absolutely no link, directly or indirectly, with unsanctioned work.
So, I will not be doing the last few papers as I simply cannot give up my family's income and I don't foresee a time when I will leave home in the morning to go carry out supervised work in some firm uptown.
I've been in touch with the IFA and apparently, based on my academic and work experience, I qualify for a PC.
so no change in stance since I last spoke to them which is now well over 12 months back.
so, welcome to the club. Looks as though you are going down the same path as myself (IFA).
They've given me Dip FA and will move that up to AFA if I pass my final ACCA exam before moving completely accross to the IFA.
It seems however as though the practice certificate is the same no matter what level you are.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
One would hope that 5.1% of ICB members (lets assume that extrapolates out) being part of or working towards ACCA membership would mean that they would become more accomodating over regulation 8 rather than use the information to go on a witch hunt.
The first thought though that comes to my mind though is back in the late 90's being party to a meeting of the Independant Contractors Group where non of those present could believe that the Government was willing to lose so much income by implementing IR35 effectively making it easier to offshore development than for UK IT contractors to perform the work.... And we all know how that went! (I know so many very clever unemployed ex directors now!).
That sort of makes me quite cynical when applying common sense to scenario's such as this. Although I do actually have every faith that the ACCA have considerably more sense than the last Government had.
Just hoping that we get some change of direction before the next lot of ACCA exam results are announced in Late August as that's really decision crunch time for me.
I would love to stay a member but I'm not willing to risk the £800 fine and expulsion for breaking regulation 8. (I assume it's still around £800 as that's what the average seemed to be when they used to report expulsions in Student Accountant).
It really is a complete minefield out there isn't it.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Maybe I was appying the common sense approach, but would be surprised if this was'nt done by many in practice with no one batting an eye lid.
I'd be surprised if many ACCA knew of section 8 like the back of their hand. I fully take your view as you are clearly more rehearsed and knowledgeable on this area than me.
I still think that if you are not adverting as an ACCA then how will the ACCA penalise you in any way (I know of a few qual ACA'ACCA's who have no idea of the practicing requirements and provide services that they should not).
However I would never recommend this despite the thousands of unregulated agents out there.
