I think for me it's that I'm now master of my own destiny. The council was always full of people who would claim credit for ideas if they went well and deny all knowledge of those which flopped. I hated that, especially if they were my good ideas. I also began to feel like I was the only normal person in a world full of idiots.
While the council was a secure job there is often a 'council mentality' of if you don't do anything, you can't do anything wrong. I felt I was becoming very lazy because it was so difficult to challenge it, I started taking the course of least resistance.
I enjoy the freedom to work as I choose, and to an extent with the people I choose. One thing I miss though is the company, self employment can be lonely. This is especially true if things aren't going well.
All in all it was the right decision for me.
Getting the work once the client has arranged to meet is the easiest bit. I talk to them like it is a done deal. I never really use the word 'if' unless I've not decided I want them. I go with all the forms they need to sign and prepared to get their ID.
Kris
-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Thursday 26th of April 2012 11:38:31 AM
Tom McClelland wrote:I was on the board of a listed company and I realised that I had little respect for any of the people sitting round the boardroom table with me. They were ramming my mouth full of money and didn't seem to care whether I achieved anything or not.
In general doing as little as possible was a good plan because that way the boat didn't get rocked. The business made horrendous losses and periodically went back to the market for more money, which appeared to be the one serious expertise of the other directors.
I reached a point where I'd had enough and didn't care how much they paid me because dislike of my job was affecting my health. The real pity was that I had lots of time for my non-board colleagues, and I felt as if I was abandoning them...
Can totally relate. It was the same in banking. Nobody was making any decisions because if you kept your head below the parapet it wouldn't get shot off.
I hated it and always refused to adopt the do nothing and retire early attitude.(Which made me liked by those below me, those above me but often hated by those at the same level).
Don't know if you ever saw it but the finale of life on mars where Sam comes back from life in 1972 to life in the present and they are all sat around a table considering the political correctness of a situation.
That just felt so like my life. Half my life in meetings where seriously important decisions were avoided and inconsequential stuff was made into major issues in order to make people seem more important than they in fact were.
To use an old analogy. It seemed as though we were making ourselves busy rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 26th of April 2012 12:18:32 PM
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
So, there's another interesting point. There is a similar get up and go about people who go into business for themselves. We don't want to avoid the decisions but rather relish them. Would that be fair to say?
One of the other reasons I prefer to work for myself is that I'm quite single minded. While I'm happy to take advice and ideas on board, I dont want to be told word for word how to do something. That became an issue with employment, I could see better ways to do things, but was not able to, not because it was a bad way but rather because it "had always been done this way". Many of the lines from Yes Minister ring true for the council, but one which sticks in my mind is: "many, many things must be done... but nothing must be done for the first time."
Kris
-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Thursday 26th of April 2012 12:14:25 PM
This is my second post in this forum, but I've been lurking around a bit over the past few months.
I'm currently thinking about whether to try to do what so many of you seem to have done - whether to open a bookkeeping operation of my own, at some point in the future.
One thing I'd say is that I admire the guts, for want of a better word, that you have displayed in doing so. This is a serious job, and the consequences of messing it up could be unpleasant. Getting clients means having to go out there and pitch to people in some shape or form. I expect that there is a lot of rejection involved - almost inevitably. Financially speaking there are no guarantees. The first years seem to be difficult. Years are quite a long time. I imagine that having a first client could be extremely nerve-wracking to say the least, and wonder what it's like to be in this situation, and to pull through it.
So, hats off, as they say.
Any reflections you may have on these points would be very welcome.
I had previously worked in practice for about 14 years and changed jobs in June last year and moved into industry. A new FD was appointed where i was working soon after i started who didnt want me there which ended up with me losing my job at the end of Jan this year. I was then effectively unemployed for the first time in my working life. I had always thought about setting up on my own but never had the "guts" to go and do it. I now howver found myself in a position where i had no other option. So that is what i went ahead and did. Had the Ltd company already set up but got my website up and running, got flyers done, etc and went out into the big bad world to try and get clients. So far have over 20 clients and every potential client that met so far has signed up. (so not had that feeling of rejection yet but i am sure it will come)
I got a new full time job with a CA firm in Edinburgh at the start of this month on the highest salary i have ever been on. Plus they dont have any objection to me doing work for my own clients (win/win situation).
I have meetings with 2 potential new clients in the next week and move into a small office for my own practice in the next few days so all looking well.
If i ever get to the position where i have say 100 of my own clients then will need to decide whether to go alone full time or not. At the moment the 20 odd clients i have nicely supplements my full time income without to onerous a time commmitment.
Taking the decision to start out on your own is scary. This is especially so if you have a secure job with a regular income. I worked for the local authority up until a few years ago. I saw the writing on the wall about 9 months before they started making redundancies and decided to train for an ICB qualification. I started my business part time before I left my job and was able to hit the ground running.
Business was slow the first year, and I did need to make some difficult choices financially. We're a few years down the line now, things area lot better. I'm nt making anything like I was with the council, but I dont have the same dislike for what I do either. I get to spend loads of time with my family and save a fortune on childcare.
Like Mark I've never got to a meeting stage with a client and not got the work, though I have chosen not to take a client on at this time. The rejection for me is in doing my own cold calling. It was difficult to begin with, but you need to remember that they're not rejecting you, just the proposition you are offering them.
The one thing I can say is I've never looked back, it's the best thing I've ever done.
I came to things from a slighty different angle to Kris and Mark in that I already had my own business before moving it sideways in the direction of an accountancy practice which fits a lot better around single parenting.
After working for one of the UK's top consultancy firms of the late 80's I've run a management consultancy business in the high finance sector (predomonantly banking) since 1990 so facing clients of all levels in a business is something that I've very much grown up with.
However, I remember very well the first client meeting and thinking what if I don't win this work? what if I don't win any work?? Do I know enough to do this without any backup???? Will the client realise that I don't know everything!!!!!
I've actually found over the years that having a questioning attitude of your own skills always keeps you at the top of your game as the real enemy to knowledge is the complacency of thinking that you already know it.
All in all the key to sucess in this as in any business is not knowing everything, npbody knows that. It's knowing more than the client and the client knowing that you know more than them without you telling them that.
Also. as Kris touched upon, if you are going to be a sucess at this business you need to love it. People don't generally become a success at anything by being in it for money. They succeed because they love what they do and in my case I just feel that I'm making a lot more of a difference for smaller business owners than I ever did for the banks where instigating change often felt like trying to push a boulder up a hill
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you very much for your responses - very interesting reading.
@ Mark. Congratulations on your success - very impressive. All the best with juggling your new job with your private clients. I sense that you are not afraid of hard work!
@ Kris. That point about getting to see your children is very interesting, particularly given the extortionate costs of childcare (not to mention other factors). It's very encouraging that you are so positive about your own experience. I'd be interested to know a bit more about why you consider it to be the best thing you've ever done... (I can imagine some reasons, of course, but the specifics are always interesting).
@ Shaun. Those are two very, very important points you've made, I think, regarding (1) having a attitude of always learning and (2) loving what you do. Interesting that you see it in terms of helping small business owners rather than in purely financial terms or even in terms of running your own business, although I imagine that these components must come into play as well.
One question for all of you, is as to how you make sure that you get the business once a client has agreed to meet up with you?
To get a client to sign up with you i do the following
1. Meet them at the agreed time and place. Dont be later
2. Before you go find out what structure they are and what services they will be looking for ie sole trader/ltd company and are they just looking for year end compliance work ie accounts and tax return or are they looking for more hands on role ie bookkeeping, management accounts, VAT returns, payroll etc. This will then give you an idea about pricing the job. So you can have a structure in mind with how low you would be willing to go to secure the client.
3. Be confident in your own abilities and what you can offer them. At the end of the day there is a whole host of other people who could do the work for them. Be able to sell yourself and convince them not why they should come on board with you but why shouldnt they.
4. Take a new client form out there and get them to sign up on the spot if you can. If you leave them to go away and think about it then there is a then increases the chances of them not signing up.
5. Be sure to get your engagement letter and other paperwork out to them soon after they have signed up (guilty myself for not doing this as have a few people that i am about 2 months behind with in sending out engagement letters, mandates etc).
6. Try and understand the client and what they want. At the end of the day they are willing to pay you to supply a service. Try and build up a rapport with the client as at the end the day accounting is a people business more than anything else and peopler will do business with people that they get on with/trust/and have confidence in. One client that i got signed up commented on the reason why he came witih me is that he liked the way that i came across.
Basically the nerve required to set up on your own is the same almost regardless of type of business. It is a leap in the dark unless you're a serial entrepreneur.
Most people leap with their eyes shut, thinking, "anyone can run a restaurant", or "anyone numerate can do books", or whatever. And that is why most business start-ups fail.
But if everyone understood the risks and waited until success was a dead cert then no new businesses would ever start at all. And many business owners would agree that starting up for themselves was the best thing they ever did in their lives.
You'll probably make some mistakes to start with. Businesses succeed where the owners recognise the mistakes and act to eliminate the bigger ones from their model in future.
My approach is very much just chatting and showing no sign that their business is in any way important to the continuence of mine.
Too often clients can be put off by professionals adopting a sales patter where really it needs to occur to the business owner that they want to use you rather than trying in any way to tell them that they need to come to you.
The way to think about that is that if things get to a meeting then you have already won the business and what you say (or don't say) at the meeting can only convince the client that they were right or wrong about their initial evaluation.
The ACCA and IFAC guidance on marketing professional services does in fact touch on that when it states that one should never be disparaging of other practices services or claim unfounded superiority of one's own services.
Think of chasing clients like chasing pet rabbits. If they start to back away and you chase them they will run and you won't catch them no matter how hard you try (#1). If they start to back away and you stand still they will not run.
That's not saying that one should ever in any way make clients feel as though their buiness and more to point their profit are not of paramount importance to you. It's just that you don't spook them by seeming too eager to win their business.
kind regards,
Shaun.
#1 a shotgun would work but that's very much frowned upon in the context of clients!
-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 7th of July 2019 03:57:51 PM
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I think for me it's that I'm now master of my own destiny. The council was always full of people who would claim credit for ideas if they went well and deny all knowledge of those which flopped. I hated that, especially if they were my good ideas. I also began to feel like I was the only normal person in a world full of idiots.
While the council was a secure job there is often a 'council mentality' of if you don't do anything, you can't do anything wrong. I felt I was becoming very lazy because it was so difficult to challenge it, I started taking the course of least resistance.
I enjoy the freedom to work as I choose, and to an extent with the people I choose.
-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Thursday 26th of April 2012 11:38:31 AM
A lot of truth there. Highlighting of salient point by me. I was on the board of a listed company and I realised that I had little respect for any of the people sitting round the boardroom table with me. They were ramming my mouth full of money and didn't seem to care whether I achieved anything or not.
In general doing as little as possible was a good plan because that way the boat didn't get rocked. The business made horrendous losses and periodically went back to the market for more money, which appeared to be the one serious expertise of the other directors.
I reached a point where I'd had enough and didn't care how much they paid me because dislike of my job was affecting my health. The real pity was that I had lots of time for my non-board colleagues, and I felt as if I was abandoning them...
So, there's another interesting point. There is a similar get up and go about people who go into business for themselves. We don't want to avoid the decisions but rather relish them. Would that be fair to say?
Kris
Completely.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
This has been a fascinating read - the psychological angle, I guess.
@ Mark S and Shaun - thanks so much to you both for your detailed answers regarding how to approach new clients. I have learnt a lot from reading them.
It's been particularly interesting to read the "compare and contrast" analysis regarding your previous occupations. I really get the sense that working for oneself is a VERY different world - whatever it is that you happen to be doing.
@ Kris - that "yes minister-esque" line really is a classic. Surely there's got to be a sitcom in this??
Here's a more general question: how do you think that the demands of being self-employed divide up between "actually doing the bookkeeping work" and "running a business"? Clearly there is no neat separation here, but hopefully you see what I mean.
At times it seems as though the bookkeeping and accounts work is not the real work at all and when doing it you feel as though you should actually be somewhere talking to a client rather than sitting in front of a computer.
I know that I talk about not appearing to sell but we are selling non the less and when your not you feel that you should be.
Another thing worth noting is that it's probably worth thinking of being your own boss as a lifestyle choice.
Those who work for others can (they don't always) switch off at the end of the hours that they are being paid for. You get to watch TV, have paid holidays and you get paid if you get sick, etc.
Working for yourself you never switch off. Watching TV tends to be only when you are too burnt out to think. You find that the only books that you read are study texts, HMRC web pages and industry journals... Oh and you also get to be on first name terms with the regular contributors on this site!
Even though I spend more time with my son now you are always on. The mobile in your pocket is never switched off, you won't go an hour without checking your emails. You basically become your business but at the same time because you have total cotrol over it you don't feel that you are working because you have to but rather than you are building something that could grow into something substantial.
In company law there's a statement that says that a director has a fiduciary duty of care for the business that they control. A fiduciary duty of care is similar to a parents responsibility for a child and when you have a business you will see how true that analogy is. Parents don't switch off at the end of the day and nor do business owners.... Or at least not those whose companies survive anyway!
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Ssshh. the threads still an upskilling free zone at the moment.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
My situation was similar to Tom, I was working for a PLC, very well paid job, but just didn't feel satisfied, so handed my notice in with a portfolio of 2 clients.
I'd previously worked in practice, and loved the small business environment. You feel like you are making a difference, you are appreciated. I also had what I'd consider to be the right attitude to working for yourself - happy to work long hours, low sickness rate (2 days sick in 10 years of working for PLC's), that kind of thing. I've also had the opportunity to be around whilst my kids grew up.
From my own point of view, and this came out when speaking to another local bookkeeper recently, I would love to be in a position where I could spend all my time managing and growing the business.
Although I can do the bookkeeping, and I'm happy to right now, the long term goal is to employ someone to do most of it to free up my time to manage the business. Unfortunately with things as they are this is maybe 2 years away (once both my boys are at school) and I don't have the time needed to take this step. My feeling is that this would require me to at least be around full time hours.
Right now I'm outsourcing a bit of work to give me the time I need, but this is not a long term option as it can be costly, so profit goes down a bit.
I do think that you get 2 types of bookkeeper, the first is the person who wants a job for themselves, and the second who wants a business. Neither of these are wrong (regardless of what you might hear) it really depends on who you are and at what point of your life I think.
the issue that I have is that I know that I need to go down the path of selling, support and accounts only work but at the moment I know every little detail of every business that I deal with where you give some of that knowledge up when you have others doing the bookkeeping.
That said it will hit a point where I either have to stop growing or have others do everything to at least trial balance.
My fear is that I will end up reviewing everything that is done for me and spend as long doing that as I currently do doing the whole process.
As Neil (Spam Kebab) hit on in another thread, there is another categorisation for bookkeepers. Those who look at bookkeeping as an end in itself and those who look upon it as a stepping stone to accountancy.
My flag is firmly in the latter camp.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
This is a brilliant thread. I left a full time job to set up on my own, having previously worked in the private sector, for the NHS and for a council. I am a slight workaholic (so the odd long week or lost weekend are not too much of an issue) and a stationery freak (so choosing my own stationery, and kitting out my little office was a definite perk)
Meeting clients for the first time and having to do a "sales pitch" was quite hair-raising, then I quickly realised that I am not a sales person, not many people like a "hard sell" and it is better (well, for me) not to try.
Someone said to me, quite early on, only work for clients who you think you will like working for, otherwise what is the point in working for yourself. I think that's very true - people panic that they need to take on any/every client who comes along, but that would be doing both them and yourself a disservice.
Someone said to me, quite early on, only work for clients who you think you will like working for, otherwise what is the point in working for yourself. I think that's very true - people panic that they need to take on any/every client who comes along, but that would be doing both them and yourself a disservice.
This is very true, its easy to be desparate with the first and second client, but we learn from our mistakes and then become picky with who we want! I am certainly alot more pickier now.
Sorry I've not been around for a while but this seems a good thread to jump in to.
I did a bookkeeping job for a small family run business for 11 years before leaving to have my first child. I agreed to go back part time but when it came down to it, they decided they couldn't have me doing the job I was doing part time. So I started doing bookkeeping for another company for a couple mornings a week, then also took on another job working for a guy who ran his own bookkeeping company. I left those jobs to have my second child and also we moved from Surrey to Kent. As they were part time there was no money incentive to go back what with the travelling and childcare. I then did a night shift stacking shelves in Sainsburys before going on maternity leave with child no. 3 and it was then I decided to set up on my own. The first year was incredibly slow. I made a £16 profit, but hey, a profits a profit right. This year I have really worked hard. I have been networking like crazy as and when I can, in person and on social networking sites, and the work I have been doing for one accountancy firm has doubled - I know have two regular clients through them which is fantastic. I recently went to an exhibition and one of the seminars basically showed me that the more rejection you get the more chance you get of having lots of yesses. I am learning to just keep at it and shrugging off the nos.
