Unpaid invoices! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Unpaid invoices!

Delightful · Member

furious

I have been a self-employed bookkeeper since 1990. I now find myself in a position where an accountant, that I do quite a lot of work for, hasn't paid me since December 2011. I have had problems with him before but carried on working in the vain hope that he would clear the debt. He does not appear to be qualified but I have loved the work so simply carried on working for him.

I am now in a very bad place financially. I want to finish one of his client's VAT returns because I don't want the client having to pay penalties. I am, also, supposed to be doing the annual accounts. Where do I stand with holding on to my working papers until he pays me? I know he could hold on to working papers if the client hadn't paid him but I do not want to pass them on to the accountant

Anyone know what my rights are?

Delightful · Member

You are absolutely right, Shaun, he is getting paid but not passing my bit on. He doesn't have a computer or an office but does have an email address - what good is that? He accessed his emails here and they were all (except one) about his golf club. I am 100% that he is not a member of any professional body. My boys, 20 and 21, have offered to come with me to see him, but I am not sure that is the best option. I know I cannot say anything to the client as you quite rightly pointed out. It is not a limited company so that bit is not a problem.

I agree that I have been a little silly (oh, ok, stupid!) but I will stand my ground.

Thank you for your prompt response.

I will guard my working papers with my life!

Cheers, Shaun, my world feels a little better this evening.

Deb

NA_AA · Guru

Deb,

What is stopping you from getting the client to sign up with you direct rather than staying with the client?
I am assuming the Accountant will be charging them far more than what you would be, therefore the client would win as they are practically being charged less for the same service.

NAAA

Delightful · Member

I've done that with two but I can't complete the accounts because they are both limited companies. I have two of my own clients. The history is that I went back to work so let my clients go by natural progression and am struggling to pick up more since I decided to go back to my home office.

In theory, that is a good idea, NAAA, but how 'professional' is it to approach the client?

Deb

Don Tax · Expert

He'd simply be another person on your mailing list. Providing you don't divulge confidential matters or decry anyone, then you're in the clear.

The client may very well guess what has gone on but to paraphrase 'House of Cards' .... "One might very well think that, but you cannot possibly comment."

In situations like this, you're always better off with other options. Can you approach local accountants and promote yourself in some way. There are lots of threads on here re. advertising and Vistaprint for one, do some free offers on promotional material.

Hope this all blows over as you seem to have had a long-lasting relationship. I would even offer this bod a small discount to tide you over while you find other options.

best wishes,
Tim

Delightful · Member

Thanks, Tim but he hasn't paid me since December and owes me thousands so it will not be feasible to carry on. It is a shame, though, the work was varied and interesting. I have done the only thing I can do and gone on strike! If the clients have time-sensitive stuff I will insist on being paid direct. He did say he could maybe let me have £1000 at the end of July - great. I am actually (don't tell him!!) plodding on with the work so that when he has paid me, I can pass it all over and be done with him. He'll soon regret it because I know the standard of the other bookkeeper he uses. I've poached some bookkeeping and payroll from her and the client is very happy because my rate is lower and I'm better at it.

I am about to approach a local accountant but I am dropping hints rather than asking outright. She is a sole-trader and I have worked for her before several years ago. She's not a great payer but better than him - she generally took six weeks to pay my invoices! Better than six months. I have also advertised locally ( I live in a village ) but only one client so far. Sadly he is self-assessment, employed only, so it's not a fortune but it all helps.

Regards

Deb

Don Tax · Expert

Hi Deb, that comes across as determined and the best result would be if he began respecting your skills and showing it by paying quickly.

Have you thought about furthering your studies. You are obviously highly competent and experienced and it may not be a massive leap to become qualified to prepare accounts for Ltd's, even if under supervision initially. I say this as I had not studied for years, so went right back to basics to get into the routine again. By basics I mean payroll, but I'm not insinuating that you should the same. That was just what I felt was the best kick-start for me, and I bought old text books on Amazon so I could self-study at home at very little expense.

I don't think I'll need a training course for a good while yet, and it could well be the same for you. Just a thought - as i was seeking greater options too.

best regards,
Tim

MarkS · Expert

Hi Deb

Are you a member of a professional body?

If not then what is the restriction to you doing the accounts for limited companies provided you know what to do?

Regards

MarkS

Tom McClelland · Senior Member

One lesson for the future is to go on strike much earlier on when confronted with bad payment. There is no excuse for this, and the offer to pay in July is risible. Evidently your client acknowledges the debt and should settle it without delay. It is not your function to fund your client's sales ledger. I really don't see why any *results* of your work, such as VAT returns, should be filed until you've been paid (though obviously you should return any source documents if requested). If that causes friction between the accountant and their client then GOOD, you've turned your problem into their problem. The way things stand at the moment everyone but you is in clover, yet you're the one doing the work!

However the best tactic may be to avoid confrontation until the outstanding balance has been settled in full (I hope that is what is offered for July, otherwise you're just continuing to be strung along, and that will last forever if not confronted). Then once settled, you can reset the relationship on the correct footing.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

But I think that the one that nobody is fully appreciating here is the poor accountant.

I think there should be some mention here of their costs. I mean, golf club fee's cost a lot of money, and there's having the right clubs and you can't be seen to tun up at the golf club in a shabby car and buying the drinks isn't cheap.... Ahhh, nobody thought about it from the poor accountants side did they.

One has to appreciate that with those sort of overheads there just isn't enough left to pay the service companies.

Actually, just re-reading the above.... Nope, first response was better... Go make his life a living hell Deb.

Shaun.

p.s. There are a lot of very, very good accountants out there (some of them close freinds) who would pay their staff and service provider businesses before taking a penny from the business themselves so tales of this sort of behaviour bringing the profession into disrepute just make my blood boil.

Delightful · Member

Tim, yes I have thought about furthering my studies but with family commitments, an overworked husband and no money for childcare - well, it doesn't seem like an option. And, I am pretty old! I have a very poorly ex-husband so am helping to run his business which has brought me back in to the world of payroll (unpaid for him but I won't let him down - actually I tell a lie, I have had about 80 Euros from him since last June!). Luckily my ex bought the software so the two clients that I have now picked up are covered by the multi co. Not a fortune but as they say, every little helps!

MarkS, I nearly qualified as a Chartered Accountant in 1989, so my Ltd Co stuff is very rusty. Mind you, I am very good at getting the best out of helplines and could probably soon learn the ins and outs!

Oh, Tom, I have been on strike before and things improved for a while. I like your attitude about turning it in to their problem!! I'm a bit pathetically soft but with the level of support I am getting here, I feel much stronger! And I am trying to avoid confrontation until I am paid IN FULL. I have sent court papers and he ignored them - he didn't know that I hadn't submitted them. A local accountant says he definitely can't be qualified because he would be in big strife for ignoring them.

You are right, of course, Shaun. And I googled his house - the address I have is a small terrace BUT a client inadvertently gave me the address of a large house, near enough in the next road (yes, I googled that too). I explained it away as the terrace being his abode and the greedy ex-wife having the big house. I don't even know if he has been married. A bit naive, I suppose! I should have asked him.

Thanks, everyone.

Deb

Delightful · Member

Speaking of good accountants, Shaun, I had a brilliant boss but she moved to Devon and we couldn't make it work.

Hey ho

PaulC · Veteran Member

It's so annoying when people don't pay even when they are very happy with the work. It seems having to pay up can bring out the worst in people. From my experience, not that it helps you much in this situation, the best thing to do is to stop doing any work as soon as it becomes evident that prompt payment is not forthcoming. If you've chased up by phone and email and sent a few reminders and after a few weeks still no progress then I think that's the time to down tools and move on to other client work.
You can always pass on to a credit collection agency to see if they have any joy and they'll charge you around 10% of the recouped money.

Delightful · Member

It would probably be worth worth using a debt collection agency, Paul. I am very much out of pocket and very annoyed. I left a message to say I would withhold my working papers but return all the clients stuff directly to the client. Sadly for one of the clients, he needs his VAT return doing re quarter end May. I have advised Peter that to keep it professional, he must advise the client as to why I am holding on to my working papers. He won't - cos he is a coward and patently a waste of space. I am going to finish off the little bits I have left and then release the papers once I have been paid in full. Shame it's so difficult to get work round here!

Still, I saw a new client yesterday. One that needs his hand holding, which I quite like. Carrier bag job!

Thanks, Paul.

Don Tax · Expert

Have you seen that some bookkeepers are offering a "from anywhere postal service". I suppose the first thing you'd need is a website and there are lots of threads in this forum touching on that.

If that guy on the unicycle can take on the Royal Mail then location might be surmountable.

best wishes,
Tim

Delightful · Member

Thanks, Tim. I'll have a look.

Deb

Delightful · Member

Well, things have gone from bad to worse. He is insisting on picking up all the paperwork. I explained (again!!) that I would keep all my paperwork. Have negotiated with a fairly big client that they collect their own paperwork. The client knows the score. They have been unhappy with him for some time.

Am spending today putting all the other stuff ready for collection. My son, who has altitude and attitude (ok, he is over 6 foot and stroppy!!), is going to be here for moral support.

My gut feeling is that he will still not pay but I am going to try three options - debt collection, small claims and solicitors. Just getting advice at this stage. He owes £3500 roughly (£2540 billed).

Time to get nasty, methinks!

Don Tax · Expert

I'm unsure of the rights to paperwork for unincorporated firms. You have asked one firm to collect themselves - was this one Limited?

I would be inclined to bluff this one and insist on some cash payment before you release any papers. Let him do the leg-work on solicitors and court proceedings.

Two of the suggestions were about shaming into some payment. I would still offer a small discount by way of the carrot with the non-release stick and also demand explanation for the delay in payment...... your work must have been good until recently so he'll need to come up with a pretty good explanation for retaining you for so long.

best wishes,
TIm

Delightful · Member

Yes, Tim, they are limited. And I know them well so know they would rather have their paperwork on their premises.

I have today been accused of being unhelpful - I said 'You ain't seen nothing yet'

His argument is that he hasn't been paid for some of the jobs. Hmmm, not my problem.

Thank you

Deb

P.S. My work is good!!!!

Don Tax · Expert

Delightful wrote:
.......................I have today been accused of being unhelpful - I said 'You ain't seen nothing yet'..............

Start by wasting his journey today while your son is there :o)

Then I do like the idea of staking out his office - perhaps ringing an old cash register.

Delightful · Member

I'm so glad I found you lot!

Big client is moving to another accountant who is in the next village to me. It will take time but, hey ho, it will be worth it! I will work direct with the client and they pay on the same day that I invoice them. It is going to annoy the hell out of Peter. He he!!

Just printing the Small Claims forms.

)))

Don Tax · Expert

I'd give him a £230 discount. Don't even put the £225 dispute in writing.

Add: In fact £200 or £254 -- anything but £225.

best wishes,

Tim

-- Edited by Don Tax on Thursday 21st of June 2012 11:14:29 AM

Delightful · Member

Well, he tried to argue the toss - inanely going on and on about one small job that a client wasn't happy with. Actually, it was the client's fault that I didn't have all the paperwork to do a completely accurate VAT return. In fact it was £2000 odd in VAT mans favour that will go through this quarter.

So, at this stage I am happily holding on to my working papers and am about to phone him to give him an interim deal. £2540 billed less £225 disputed and take it from there. Another £975 billed this week but I can't really push for that yet!

If that works, I will be very strict and hold out for payment one job at a time! Once he gets the hang of that - who knows, it could work!

Delightful · Member

Latest position! He has just had a client send me an email (this is the one that is disputed) which verged on unpleasant. I know Peter dictated it because, bless him, Mik wouldn't string such long sentences together. I liked him. I mean (and no disrespect because my son is a mechanic) would the average mechanic come out with 'You, by your actions, are effecting the transfer of information process'. No, I thought not.

The client says I am under contract to him. Nope! I (for my sins) work for Peter.

Hey ho.

Delightful · Member

Thanks, Tim. That makes sense!

Delightful · Member

Well, it's been a while since I came on here but thought I'd give you an update. I went to a debt collecting agency in June and it all started well! I chose a company that provided lots of references from happy people and I telephoned a random few. OK, so far so good. Then the money started coming in - even better. Some came directly from a client which I wasn't happy about because it shouldn't have been down to them. The cheques started to tail off and have now stopped. The debt people are not impressed with his conduct. I was told that he had called them 'liars'. I had to laugh and point out that I suspect they have been called worse!! Anyway, the two Limited company clients have instructed a new accountant who I will meet next week. He is qualified and has an office and staff and computers and an email address. Have now got proof that previous 'accountant' is not qualified. And that the terrace is his office and he lives in the big house. With uncleared CCJs on both properties.

He has done his usual and promised the debt collectors on-going work. This means, essentially, get me out of this if I give you plenty of clients! The debt people cannot deal with him while he is being chased by me. He did this before with a couple of people including me - but why would I pass on work when I can do it myself?? So I am in the fairly secure state of knowing that the working files are mine and the other stuff belongs to the Limited companies.

My ex died in October so I am becoming more involved in his business. He left it with no directors (to be fair, he hadn't planned on leaving us) so our boys, who are now 20 and 22, have taken it on. There were lots of loose ends but it is amazing how helpful people can be. There hasn't been a single help-line that has refused to deal with me even though I am neither next-of-kin or executor. Even HMRC have been amazing! So, the boys are going to do up the office (haulage company i.e.. pretty grotty) and I will do a few hours a week come January. And they will even pay me! At the moment I am doing it for love and for the occasional kebab (my weakness!).

The debt collectors are very nice to me. I wonder why they don't like him NOT!

Thanks for all the advice and I have signed up for the Bookkeepers newsletter and the register. Hopefully some more work will come my way. I've even got some social events lined up - woo hoo!!

Deb

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Deb,

really sorry to hear about your loss but glad to hear that you are coming through it quite positively and that things now seem to be going in the right direction for you.

talk soon,

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Delightful · Member

Thanks, Shaun. We'll get there. Sometimes money isn't all it is cracked up to be.

Did make me smile because you use the name Shamus on the forum but sign it Shaun. My youngest is Aiden and we call him Hamish - it's a long story....

Best regards

Deb

Don Tax · Expert

Hi Deb. Nice to hear you're surmounting that major hurdle, but please accept my condolences on your loss. Keep us up to date on how things are going.

Best wishes
Tim

Delightful · Member

Thank you, Tim. I could tell a tale or two about 'my loss' because the boys have accidentally 'lost' bits of him over two cars, up friend's nose, and finally most of him where he wanted to be scattered. Except the last bits where they thought he might like a swim in the stream. I'm glad I wasn't there because I would have giggled! He was only 47, bless him.

Deb