Hi Kris,

to my mind it's dead... But... I totally agree with the ICB in that one needs to think in manual terms before being let anywhere near a computer.

Similar concept to when we use VT although it's computerised in the back of your mind you are thinking in double entry.

Or a better example, when typing information in I am thinking where in the accounts it would end up. If people don't have that knowledge then they are working blindfolded.

All in all, no, I wouldn't do a manual set of books but I could and similarly I could produce a set of accounts manually but I let the software do that for me as well... Even though I know what the figures should be so if they're not I know that something has gone amiss.

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 wrote:

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instead of letting excel calculate the columns it was being done with a calculator and the total figures typed in. 

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just imagine me rolling around the floor almost crying with laughter at that revelation.

Some people should be made to pass a fundamentals test before being allowed near a computer.

I fully agree with Shamus that you have to know how to do it manually before you can understand how to do it on a computer.

I still draw up T-accounts and scrawl manual calculations when working out very difficult journals.

Wella wrote:

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I do sometimes use an excel template, I have created, rather than paper but it is literally an electronic T account.

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I do that as well , the T accounts have auto totalling and balancing.

 

And Liz,

like yourself, there's always an A4 pad and desktop calculator next to my keyboard.... In fact, the A4 pad is my mouse mat!

 

 

 

Figurate wrote:

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I once saw an auditor sitting in front of a computer and using a calculator to add up the figures in a "detailed transaction" screen in the accounting software - to check it agreed with the total that the software had produced at the bottom of the screen...

(After some while, the auditor did agree that the software could indeed add up a column of figures)

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Ah, but if it was a bespoke accounting package I could see the legitimacy of that one.

bespoke software can get the answers wrong as it doesn't necessarily use the figures displayed on the screen in the calculation of the total so it's a good test of control to recalculate the arithmetic accuracy and reperform the calculation manually from the source data.

The issue really is that auditors are not IT experts so understanding why figures are how they are without using an expert can cause issues.

Many is the time that I've had an auditor sitting next to me asking questions about things that they couldn't hope to understand but knowing that they had to ask the questions to seem as though they did.

Of course, if the software was something like Sage or SAP then the engagement partner should go and slap the auditors knuckles with a ruler for being so stupid.

Hope your having a good Saturday Louise.

Just managed to make my boy happy and upset him within two minues.

I've allowed him to have hsi own email and facebook account (all set up). (Happy thirteen year old).

I won't allow him to add anyone that is not a close freind that I know or he's related to. (Dads back to being Satan again).

lol,

Shaun.

Does keeping manual cash books and petty cash books count ? In which case I do. I find it easier if clients need daily bank positions to keep a cash book and keep track of unpresented cheques etc. Also to reconcile a factoring current account.

Wella wrote:

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I have heard that circa 70% of all business spreadsheets (including professionally written ones) contain errors.

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I'm sure that should actually ready 70% of other peoples business spreadsheets!

I notice that the examples were American... No comment! lol.

My experience with my other hat on is actually that if ever there was an error found in anyone's spreadsheets (or powerpoint presentations) then they would be pretty publicly humiliated so you really tried to make sure that anything that you did was perfect. (fear of public ridicule and unemployability on a freelance basis is a great incentive for that).

Of course, not all spreadsheets are produced by financial professionals so my guess is that the percentage which seems to indicate 70% of all spreadsheets would be somewhat more realistic if divided down by the groups producing them.

... Bit like the ICB's 68% of accountants not being able to pass the ICB exams but not breaking that figure down by supervisory body.

Conversely of course, when financial professionals do make errors per your attachment Bill they are usually pretty spectacular and I could imagine a more realistic quote that of all the spreadsheet issues 99.9% of the value of the errors could be down to (ex) financial professionals.

There's a quote in the film working girl where Harrison Ford says that his telephone has his name taped over the names of those who didn't get the sale.

In banking I think that equivalent would be one's name taped over the guy who presented the spreadsheet to senior management just before you!

No pressure there then.

We've only just allowed face book with the eldest one, but the youngest one luckily isn't interested. We check it from time to time as well just to see whats going on.

Hi Amanda,

well, he's mighty peeved off at the moment because his Facebook contacts consist of His brother on the South Coast and his Sister in London.

He's allowed to add his freinds at school but he's not managed to find them yet and he's thinking that maybe it was Myspace that he wanted to be on rather than Facebook!

His PC is right next to mine and I can see everything that he's doing so the risk to him of being online is basically zero. :)

Well, at least he can now say that he's got an email account and a facebook account even if Dad is always looking over his shoulder. (I might be letting him grow but I've still got a (virtual) rope tied to him the same as I had a real one on him when he was an ankle biter (That's one of those mothercare harness things, not a real rope you understand!!!)).

I was recently given a t/b by a AAT qualified book-keeper which does balance and they confirmed the VAT control account balances with the VAT returns. Because they use a computerised accounting package, they insist it must be correct as it works out the VAT for the VAT returns etc. However I pointed out that the VAT sales account minus the VAT purchase account does not reconcile with the VAT return control account on the trial balance. There is a substantial difference (They have not been doing a quarterly VAT jnl to the control account and it seems they were not aware that they should have been doing this as a check that the VAT returns were correct).

Like many book-keepers they trusted the software to be correct. I beleive they have made posting errors, which if they were doing manual checks they would have pick up on rather than just trust what they had posted must be correct. Now I have to find time to "teach" them how to do the quarterly Jnls so they can check the VAT returns are correct, and then look for the errors. To do this I will have to show them how to do it manually so they can then do it on the computer.

Knowing how to do something manually is important if you use a computerised system to stop posting errors. It more about knowing how to do it manually than actually doing it manually! Its to help with understanding, rather than blindly accepting it must be correcrt.

It is easier to explain or teach it if you do it on "paper" - this could be a word document or excel. I find when I receive a excel document from someone else, my software removes ALL the built in formulars/calculations !!!! I also can't copy and paste between files anymore either. So if I use a excel document to do a set of accounts, I have to manually add my own formulars etc, so using excel up to a point is partially manual again.

Hi Sam,

your not going to believe this. I just completely misread your first line :

"My sons pre-school still do manual bookkeeping"

And I've now got this vision lodged in my mind of four year olds between eating cookies and glueing stuff being taught basic double entry.

One of the major advantages of computerisation of anything is that it improves consistency but as you say, for ten transactions per month if you've got a system that works why do you need to computerise... Of course, the way that the government has gone if you only had one transaction a year you would still need a computer with internet access!

Hard to believe that it's only about 30 years ago that IBM decided to give software development to Microsoft and hardware development to Intel as they saw no future in these new fangled personal computers.... That one must rate amongst the biggest corporate cockups of all time methinks!

Hi Rob,

there is generally a lot of manual work involved in preparing a computerised set of accounts.

My desk (and the floor, and the wall behind me) is generally covered in bit of paper full of calculations.

I don't know how other accountants work but when you talk about not liking multiple sheets I have multiple large screens attached to my PC for just that reason so that you can look at different worksheets on different screens simultaneously.

And of course, one also has the desk and fair chunk of the floor wallpapered with printouts.

So, sounds as though the OU is definitely leading you down the right track with that excercise!

all the best,

Shaun.

lol

I think I'll go pair all my socks now...