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Again, it's about designing the site with cross browser safe markup, especially the CSS. Although Office is easy to use it isn't the best software for it.

Just read about it being frontpage, it said office in the markup so I assumed it was word.  Having said that Frontpage was never the best software for web design.  I used it myself for a short period around 1999/2000 because I didn't particularly like Dreamweaver.  Now I tend to use a small package called context which is just a nice text editor.  You can find loads of good CSS tutorials on the net and will be able to make a decent site with this.

Kris



-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 25th of September 2012 04:31:55 PM

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Hi

I have finally got my practice licence through today!!! I have quickly put together a website & would appreciate immensely any feedback. I am not a web designer & didn't want to spend hundreds on a professional. I have only just put it live, so may change/go down if I twiddle with it today biggrin.

Is there enough info? too much? am I missing anything? are there any typos? broken links? I have been playing & re reading the text, but you know what it is like reviewing your own work!

Thanks if anyone has the time to help me biggrin It would be MUCH appreciated

www.westendbookkeeping.co.uk

Lyndsey



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Hi Lyndsey,

Just a few points to make.  Firstly you seem to have added your contact details into your pen image rather than having them as text, this is bad practice for a number of reasons.  Firstly, it makes it harder to read, screen readers used by some disabled people wont be able to read it, and it means the link for your email wont work.

Your logo is half missing on the homepage and about us page.

A while box is over layering your grey fram on the homepage and about us page.

On your services page your text bursts out of the grey frame you have used.

On the contact us page the text is below the grey box (I assume it should be inside) and the ICB logo over lays it.  Again the contact information is an image so wont be read by screen readers.

I should say, I am using Google Chrome 21.0.1180.89

Hope this helps

Kris



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OOOOH! I dont see any of that in Explorer!!! Thank you!!

I think I will download other browsers and see what happens.

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Hi Lyndsey,

hope that you don't take the comments to heart but here goes (Kris will be on board imminently I'm sure after casting a more professional eye over the site.

Page (1)
white block over the practice icon. Only the letters West & Bookk are visible.

Font used for the telephone numbers comes accross as though photocopied.

email address cuts off

The first text block only fills two thirds of the block.

Reader needs to scroll down which some don't mind but generally each page should as much as possible be viewable in full without scrolling.

The paragraphs are too cluttered which may cause the reader to lose interest.

You are leaving the papragraph relating to an Accountant too open leaving clients thinking that they will need to find an accountant as well. Do you know any good quality accountants that you would be happy to recomend to new businesses? If so what about a line such as "We also work with local qualified accountants to produce your final accounts" or words to that nature.

Although you spoke of processing in the previous paragraph the sentence bookkeepers charge less than accountants for processing needs completeing such as processing data entry, or processing client records through to trial balance.

Page (2)
Same issue with the text box and everything above.

Page (3)
ICB logo is half off the page.

Font used is poor quality fax machine

text box and above still an issue BUT the West End Bookkeeping is now complete.

Also, what about credit control? Management Reporting?

Page (4)

similar issues with the logo, text box and chosen font. As per previous screen the logo is complete so the issue is only with the first two pages.



Overall,
Appreciate totally that this is a work in progress and hope that you don't take insult at any of the comments.

One other thing is that I don't know if grainy, photocopied newspaper picture was what you were going for but the picture on each page is very grainy.

Kris will be able to advise much better than myself as he also does web design professionally,

Sorry again,

Shaun.




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It does show exactly right in IE 8 and 9. But remember there are far more browsers out there now than these.

Stick your web address into http://browsershots.org and you'll get an idea of what others see. It's probably just because of the markup Office uses to make the site. You'd be far better looking at one of the free web design packages than office, it's not really designed for websites.

Kris

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Oh and there you go, Kris beat me to it.

The web browser that I was viewing it in was Firefox V15.0.1

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OH Crikey!!! just downloaded chrome & I see exactly what you mean! confuse On Explorer all pages look the same apart from the text. But Chrome moves everything around hmmm



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I actually used Front Page 2003 (microsofts website designing software) which I used as part of my A level college course when we did E business. Maybe my software is a bit out of date!

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Hi Kris,

with a life assurance company that I worked with (in sunny Scotland) the senior web designer was told that the website didn't work properly with Firefox.

His rather arrogant reply was that people should just get a better browser.

What actually happened was that people went out and got a better assurance company. lol

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Interestingly Shaun, I remember a lot of websites in the late 90's being similar. To combat it you got all of these "web designers" sticking a wee 'best viewed in IE' on the site.

Actually just looking at the w3school stats for August which shows the browser split as:

IE - 16.2%
Fiefox - 32.8%
Chrome - 43.7%
Safari - 4%
Opera - 2.2%

Kris



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Will have another go this evening once my little girl has gone to bed. She is currently bashing at the laptop keyboard!



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One thing to add - a quick glance down the thread (not a lot of time for reading forums at the moment) and I don't think it's been mentioned... well, almost mentioned by Kris, where he notes that the contact details have been added to your pen image, rather than included as text. You've also used an image for the main text on the services page and contact details page.

Text really should be text - both for the screen reader (etc) reasons Kris gave, and so that the text can be properly spidered and indexed by search engines, and will therefore help to contribute to people finding your site when they search for relevant terms.



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Hi Lyndsey,

Did I miss something, thought I would have a quick peek for you... and the website is down. Is there anything I can do? My f/t business is Website Development ;) Just let me know if you need someone to have a quick look... I also have lots of helpful software ;)

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Hi Ali

Thanks, I've been busy with my little girl past couple of days. Started on it tonight, decided to use the free Joomla software, which has been a bit of a steep learning curve. Not done sometime like this for a long while. I think I've got it now though! Have had a few problems with the free template I am trying to manipulate, but giving up for tonight. Back is killing me and have the box set of Lost series 1 waiting for me! Will get back to it tomorrow biggrin



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Took about a minute but that's still too long - 1st impression - maybe smaller font for the blurb.

I'm on Firefox 14.0.1 (ever cautious with things of which I know little)

Tim

 

PS

Bit quicker to switch between tabs - between 10 and 20 seconds



-- Edited by Don Tax on Saturday 29th of September 2012 12:22:51 PM

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Hello everyone, if anyone has 5 mins I'm getting there with the site! Still have some tweaking to do, but you can view what I've done on www.westendbookkeeping.co.uk/joomla


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Too long to load.

I waited three minutes and then quit.

If the load time is not instantaneous then the client is lost.

My browser is Firefox.

p.s. just tried to go to IE9 and rather than the usual message saying that it's not my default browser would I like to change the message has now changed to "another program on your computer has corrupted your default browser, press ok to correct".

Cheeky so and so's! Won't be using that browser again.



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Hi Tim,

15.0.1 here.

I've yet to see any noticable difference between this and the previous version.

Sure that in the background though I'm now a lot more secure and efficient.

Feels as though there is an analogy burried in there somewhere.

On the whole speed of loading thing it reminds me of one of my lines for new Uni Grads that come into banking development work.

"If it doesn't perform, it doesn't work".

All the best,

Shaun.




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I will have a look into the speed thing. I admit it has been slow today, wasnt like that yesterday! I just presumed that was my connection.

The tweaking I am going to do is re the text size/styles, still working on that!

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As others have said your site is taking an average of 4.68 seconds to load.

With regards to the site design it's a big improvement on before. As Shaun says the font is perhaps a little big, but more than that your line spacing is very tight, you could do with increasing this giving more white space between the lines of text making it easier to read.

One point I would make with the images, especially the ICB logo is that it is better to resize the image before you upload it than to rely on the HTML to resize it for you, this can save some time on site load, though admittedly not all the 4 seconds.

The only other question I would have is why are you using a gmail email address rather than a more professional Lyndsey@westendbookkeeping.co.uk, or similar?

All in all, get the load time down, sort out the text and it's night and day compared to the last one.

Well done

Kris



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Is that any faster for anyone? Seems it on my pc. Kris did your suggestion of resizing images before and convered to png instead of jpg.

Also I should have the @westend... email, just not set it up yet :P

Next I'm going to work on the text spacing.

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Much better speed than the first time.

Initial page load took 28 seconds

came out and went in again. 4 seconds

Paging within the site pretty much instantaneous

As mentionsed peviously. Font size on all pages is too big but the whole site is much, much better than the first version.

Shaun.

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Hi Lyndsey,

Well done, you're up and running. Please don't be sad with me, but the next few comments are only to help...

- Page load speed is still too slow, this could be for a few different reasons, but the first I would suggest looking at using a different theme... it may be that which is slowing the website down

- Link above is ->> http://www.westendbookkeeping.co.uk/joomla/, the fact that the 'joomla' is showing is not very good for your potential clients, could be distracting.  This may also have something to do with the page load speed.  You need to move the files to the 'root' directory of your website hosting (call if you need help)

- Clicking on the 'Services' page, the list shows as ->> http://www.westendbookkeeping.co.uk/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=470, you should be able to change this in the 'Permalinks' section, although I am used to working with Wordpress which is a different open source (free) software.  Ideally you want the link to show www.westendbookkeeping.co.uk/services

- There are links to Joomla at the bottom of the website which can be removed or changed in the css (again call if you need help)

- I can see that you have not yet installed a Google Analytics code... this would be useful too so you know more information about the visitors to your website

- I might also suggest putting a contact form on your website.  Many business owners who look for book-keepers are doing this late at night and so might not want to call so late... it's best not to let them leave your website as they might not find it again... so a contact form means they can contact you freely any time of the day withought you worrying about missing a phone call too.

I think that's it for now.  But I do really like your logo, and I really like the text too... it's clear and explains really well what you do.

Alison



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Hi Ali

Thanks for the advice :D I had been working on getting the website from the joomla subdirectory, but had a few problems which I have finally resolved (there was a unwritable file which I could change the settings, managed to get host to delete it and started again). We are now sorted with that. Looking at the site this morning and it seems to have speeded things up (I also disabled the internal web stats which was slowing it up too).

I'm currently looking into how to sort out the URL to make it into a search engine friendly one. Thats my task for today

Will download google analytics & have a look at removing the joomla bit at the bottom & possibly a form.

Thanks for the compliments on the logo, my other half will be pleased, he designed it with a bit of input from me.

Thanks again for all the help from everyone. Makes this going it alone not feel so "alone"!

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BobHarper wrote:

@Kris - how come you don't listen to your own advice?


It didn't just come overnight, I can tell you that.  I had to practice long and hard... 

Listen, stop dancing round the issue and lets just get it out.  What part of my advice exactly am I not taking on board now? Why do you talk in code?

Maybe the best thing for the OP to do would be to find a nice site, rip off the name, tag line and logo and run with that?



-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Saturday 6th of October 2012 07:19:36 PM

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@Lyndsey - I've been watching this thread and was unsure if I should post a comment because I do not think my comments will be popular with some other membbers and I do not want to offend you.

However, I can handle stick and I really think you could do with some constructive criticism so you can develop something that will work for you.

Looking at your Website I don't think you are aware of the concept of Positioning. In marketing, this is vital and comes before anything else and I suggest you research and read up on this.

I also question the value of asking/listening to bookkeepers/accountants about design.

I work with an award winning designer and if you want you can speak to her for a few minutes at no charge you can. And, there is lots of really good free advice on HubSpot about Websites.

Good luck.




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but maybe Bob you should also question the value of asking/listening to designers about content.

designers can make very pretty, well performing sites but, for example, do not necessarily know when they are doing anything against the accountants ethical code (I think you know that I'm thinking sheep video here).

Maybe what you really need is a designer to build a great site but also an accountant standing behind them telling them exactly what content is needed.... Plus maybe a marketing guru standing behind them just shaking their lowered head at what ethical codes do not allow them to include,

All in all we all have stregths and weaknesses and none of us are experts at everything and the final result is invariably a team effort and if you don't have a team then asking on the forum is a good start point as we do have experts in others fields that have retrained to this one for various reasons.

I quite happily admit that I'm not a web expert and my comments above are related purely from an end users general perspective in relation to look, content and speed of the site which I thought was really all that Lyndsey was initially asking about.

Your post doesn't actually state what you think is wrong with Lyndseys site. Only that she needs to consider positioning and talk to a designer.

Come off the wall Bob. What exactly do you feel that she needs to change?

kind regards,

Shaun. (bah... lol)

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Typical really. I wont tell you whats wrong, but I'll slate everyone else who does.

The other thing is, like all professions, there are designers and there are designers. Not all are the same. I know a few, I wouldn't let them build my website though.



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@Shaun - everything. The fundamental problem is that the site looks like a typical old fashioned bookkeeper, which is why I suggested Lyndsey research and read books on Positioning. A good example is the choice of image with a pen and paper.

In terms of content, there is nothing of value for visitors to read/download/sign-up for, no landing pages, no links to any Social Media, no videos, no blog and no pictures of Lyndsey.

If there was a Positioning strategy I would be able to suggest ideas on images, colours and images.

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@Kris - how come you don't listen to your own advice?

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@Kris - I was referring to you tagline.

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I appreciate all feedback I get but I don't feel at the moment I require a huge website with all bells and whistles! I do understand positioning and strategic marketing which I studied as part of my business degree. However, my opinion of where I am going with this business is a gradual word of mouth marketing mainly, plus advert in my local magazine. My aim is to start small as I have a toddler, with the aim to expand to a full time workload over the next 4-5 years. As my main "job" at the moment is being a mummy. It is not like I am leaving a full time job to start my own practice and have to earn a certain amount in my first year. 

My other half runs a small business who I already have a number of his clients asking about what I am going to do. I feel for my situation word of mouth and meeting people person to person is going to be my best aim to get business. 

I have set up a page on facebook and going to link that once I go live on there.

My main reason for a website is just to give a bit more detail of what I do. I know when I am looking for a business, I normally skim over anyone without a website.

As for content I don't think I have the budget to create my own marketing videos to go on the website and its not very professional to steal someones! I'm not too sure about blogging, I feel its a bit faddy, and I don't think I will have the time to keep ontop of updating it, and there is nothing worse than a blog with only one article! However I do intend on expanding with news updates when things like tax rules changes etc eventually. As for pictures of me, my other half did suggest that, but I've never had any professional photos taken (I'm thinking of Alison's rather lovely profile pic) and I don't think the pictures of my down the pub would look very professional hmm 

I completely understand where you are coming from, however, I think a couple of years down the line, when I want to expand (and maybe once I've got my Accounting qualifications) I will look at a more particular positioning strategy and pay for a properly designed website/marketing scheme.



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@Lyndsey - I'd still recommend you adopt a more strategic approach from day one because a) it can take a while to build b) you'll need to when you want to grow c) it sounds like you'll win referral work anyway.

Good luck.

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BobHarper wrote:

@Kris - I was referring to you tagline.


Aye, but thats when I'm selling services, not when I'm buying them.

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The person who owns that site really loves herself doesn't she!

Seems like a bad design to me where you get huge pictures of the owner taking up most of the page but have to scroll to anything useful.

Almost like having the headers on our sites taking up the entire page then having to scroll down to content.

On the positive side a like the colour and font of the purple boxes.

I lost interest in the site very quickly. I would actually say that the Crunchers one is much better than that.

 

p.s. I forgot to mention. Lyndsey. although I don't like that websites layout or content that's the sort of speed of paging that you should be aiming for.



-- Edited by Shamus on Monday 8th of October 2012 05:45:18 PM

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If I were a plumber, looking for a book-keeper... I want to see a website that look's like it describes the services of a book-keeper... Note a website designer.  Many of my client's website have been critisised for their 'design'... too basic, not enough imagery etc.  However... they get sales and search traffic.

Pretty design does not always mean money in your bank account!



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Sorry Bob, I have to agree with Shaun, Vince and Kris on this one, I thought the site was one of the worst I have come across for a long time. Design was awful, her picture is dreadful, I'd be well embarassed is I had that on mine! Text wrong colour, if you think that is a good design, well you should have gone to Specsavers! (sorry)

I did art at school as a subject many years ago, and recently got involved with putting pen to paper for a friend and helping them design a brand logo, I was just giving them ideas, and then they actually went to a designer to get it done properly, they didn't take my designs with them, but when the design came through on email it was identical to my hand drawn one! I told them I should have gone into that as a business! I often look at company designs, estate agents boards etc and there are some very poor ones about and some very good ones. The best are in my opinion the most simplest ones. I can honestly say that if I was a big company and needed my marketing/website looked at, after looking at hers thats the last person I would call.

I think with the majority of bookkeepers dare I say it especially us Mums (sorry I;m not sexist), we start it as we love numbers and are passionate about the work, and actually it fits in well with the kids, I would love to be bigger and have employees but I can wait for when my kids are abit older. I would love to earn more money but hey ho I can wait!

For the OP, I can see that for her the simple design is the best, and by the sounds of things word and mouth for her will work wonders. Also with little ones at home she may not want to get too big, after all child care is very expensive, I should know been there and got the t-shirt!

I know a local bookkeeper who employs 3 people, started off the same as me 12 years ago, doesn't have a website, and is so over loaded with work she turns it away, so sometimes word and mouth can be really good. Also she stopped advertising 2 years ago, she says she doesn't need to!

Sorry this is just my opinion, sorry if it sounds abit harsh. (don't ban me Shaun I'm not normally this abrupt!) lol



-- Edited by Amanda on Monday 8th of October 2012 10:57:36 PM

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@Alison - it's not so much pretty design but professional/effective design. It is also not just about getting clients but the price point which will be driven by the perception/brand.

I'd thought I include a link to a site to compare to the one we are talking about http://www.fionahudsonkelly.com/index.htm.

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A short play on Google reveals that she's for real.

Here's a video of her in action - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYezTkkSo1k - but don't waste time watching it, just read the comments.

An interesting blog post on the subject of Ms Hudson-River: http://squibble-canig.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/spammed-by-fiona-hudson-kelly.html

(Have we gone off-topic yet?)



-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 12:26:21 AM

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"Seems like a bad design to me where you get huge pictures of the owner taking up most of the page but have to scroll to anything useful."

If you visit the site in a browser with scripting turned off (or just not there at all), you don't see pictures of her - they're loaded and displayed using Javascript.

Unfortunately, though, you do still need to scroll down for the actual content if you're running at typical user resolutions. (When I'm at my own desk, I'm using 1920x1080, so if the browser window is full height, I do see the content without scrolling).

Another interesting oddity is that above the welcome text, the 'Welcome' graphic doesn't appear on the browser I just tried - but that might be a bug with the browser (it's a development build). Looking further, yes, that does look like a bug; there doesn't appear to be anything in the page's HTML that would prevent the browser loading that image.

However, at the same time, that's shown up a strange inconsistency; the 'Welcome' image is a JPEG, whereas the ones that say "Marketing Master Class" and "Fiona's Secrets" are PNGs. (Not that it really matters for images that small - though PNG would be my preference there; they allow a mask to be used - which they have for the other two; without the mask, the image has to be rendered on the exact background colour used on the site; change the latter, and the image has to be changed.)

The ALT texts and titles for both of them are wrong, as well - given that they are graphical representations of words, the ALT and title texts should be those words. For "Marketing Master Class" it's "Workshops" which is probably close enough that it doesn't matter - but for "Fiona's Secrets" it's "News".

(Well, actually, the text has "Fiona Hudson-Kelly - " before it, which is really unnecessary.)

Speaking of "Fiona's Secrets" - that's a bit odd. Why have the title there, with nothing underneath it (it's not even a link). If you click on "SECRETS" at the top, the same space on that page has some scrolling text, which is probably lifted from the RSS feed for her blog (and, unsurprisingly, doesn't work without Javascript) - this is arguably consistent with the ALT/title text, but fails to explain why the title is there on the home page. I'd guess that when the site was being designed, they were going to put the RSS feed there, and instead decided to put it on its own page.

However, if that's the case, why in the pope's pants is it still thrown into such a ridiculously small corner of the page? That's the main content for the page!

Oh, wait, Shaun's already answered that one - it's where I came in: If you set aside too much space for actual content, there would be no room for the annoying space-wasting photo of the site's owner.

Next up, let's talk about the choice of text colour against the background colour. Grey against a white background is not particularly sensible. Go to the contact page and it's even worse - the link colour (used for email, Twitter and Facebook) is even lighter.

LOL!

I just clicked on "Offer" and saw this:

"If you would like me to review your web site and provide you with a personalised report on how I think you could enhance it then our April Offer could be of interest to you!"

April Offer? In October? That indicates a website that isn't being kept up to date, and is therefore a massive FAIL (in capitals, and in bold italics if I could be bothered to switch to the advanced editor).

(It's a bit hypocritical of me to say that, though: my main website is now over four years out of date - because it was about four years ago that I decided to redesign it; the half finished - yes, four years later - new design is still sitting on my hard drive. What? I've been busy!)

And don't get me started on grammatical errors. Again, not that I'm perfect (I failed English at school) but I do try, and it's something I'm particularly picky about - remember, this is someone offering marketing expertise; that should include correct use of our language.

To be brutally honest, the Fiona Hudson-Kelly website is a prime example of style over substance - and I much prefer the simple, straightforward look of Lindsey's site.


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@Vince - yes, the site is style over substance but style/design is what we are talking about. All the rest can easily be sorted.

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I think if you go back through the thread you'll find we're not talking about style, and I'm afraid like vince and shaun the " fur coat nae knickers" approach to website and business in general doesn't sit well with me.

Kris

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But the style / design is poor which is what is being said.

The design of the site could not be held out as an example of best practice.

There are some excellent examples out there but this ego trip is not one of them.



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@Kris - and if you read my comments you'll see they are all focussed on the design.

@Shaun - you saying the style/design is poor is just your opinion. And, I am not holding it out to be best practice, just my idea for a service where the business owner delivers the service, I referred the OP to HubSpot for best practice.

By the way, they use a big image above the fold http://www.hubspot.com/ and they do this for a reason. The reason is they know what they are doing because they host thousands of Website and have the hard data. What data are you basing your opinion on?

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Bob, thats my point

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@bob If style/design is what we're talking about, then the example you gave is a very poor one. Most of the points I noted required looking a bit deeper than a first look - but that site is let down by its initial appearance, with the woefully small amount of actual content there is pushed out of sight on most people's screens. On EVERY page.

When searching for a business to serve a particular need, no matter what market - not just bookkeepers and accountants - the search results are likely to include quite a few results. The best way to narrow them down is to look at them, and the best way to speed that process up (because, after all, time is money) is to judge the book by its cover; click the link, see no worthwhile content jumping out at you? Go back to the search results and try another.






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BobHarper wrote:

By the way, they use a big image above the fold http://www.hubspot.com/ and they do this for a reason.


Note also that they only do it on their home page. On other pages, they demonstrably understand the core principle that content is key.

I don't have an issue with that, because if you find their site as the result of a search, that search might not take you straight to their home page; it's more likely to be to another page on their site (depending on what the search terms were that got you there).

The Fiona Hudson-River site you presented earlier had that ridiculous image (or rather set of images) on every page I looked at.



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@Vince - I only gave the example of the homepage for look and feel, I did not intend the OP to copy every page which is why I referred to HubSpot.




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BobHarper wrote:

@Shaun - you saying the style/design is poor is just your opinion.


In the same way that I don't have to be a web technician to know when load times for a site is slow. So I know when the style and design of a site is poor without needing to be a designer myself.

However pretty people believe their sites to be such only matters in the eys of the intended audience and I think that the consensus here shows that my opinion on this is not purely my own but rather it could be said that using this as an example of good syyle / design is just your opinion.

As things are I note that you now back away from defending this site as I feel that perhaps the opinions voiced here have made you see things about the site which were perhaps not so apparent previously.

The later offered Hubspot example was much better. Love the slow movement of the lettering when you open the home page to draw the reader in to the page.

Only comment on this one is that the paging is noticibly slower than the first example.

That one I would say is well designed and very professional looking. The first example given was not.

The data that I gauge my opinion on is that I do not need someone to tell me what is good and what is not. Quite capable of working that out for myself.



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