I am new here (first post - yeh!). I currently work in an Insolvency based capacity and have done for 10 years. I have an Insolvency Diploma and currently investigate company directors. I do not have any formal accounts training (besides BPP training through my Insolvency qualification) but actively have to analyse and interrogate Company accounts, records and SAGE.
I am looking to begin training in some form of accounting qualification off of my own back (no government or work related funding available) and have been researching the different options. I am not 100% sure what I want to achieve in the long term yet, but in the short to medium term I want to better understand accounting, SAGE, double entry etc and have the possibility to be self employed as a bookkeeper (doing payroll, personal & business tax returns, VAT and end of year accounts). This is whilst working my full time job. At the moment I don't want to work in an accounting firm or as a full time management accountant etc but do want to keep my options open.
I have written off the ACCA and CIMA as I don't feel they fit my needs. I am currently tooing and froing over whether to start the AAT or the ICB. At the moment I am leaning towards the ICB qualification and to become MICB. I think the ICB/AAT would complement my Insolvency knowledge well and then if I decided to go for ACCA or similar I could do that at a later stage.
Now to my question (I know long winded. Sorry), If I were to study the ICB and qualify as MICB, would I then be able to take the AAT exams as well without completing the courses for each paper, with a strong liklihood of success? Basically, is there enough of a cross over between the ICB and AAT to be able to study one and pass the other? I am expecting there to be enough of a cross over up to Level 3 of the AAT (after perusing the sullabuses) and then to have to take a course for the level 4 AAT. Would appreciate anyones comments.
The question to ask yourself is where are you looking to end up at the end of this.
Gaining an ICB qualification is great for self employment and also for gaining an understanding from the principles of double entry right through to basic accountancy.
For employment few employers have actually heard of ICB and the qualification will not get your CV past an agents desk.
AAT is the next level up covering everything that the ICB qualification does but is also a stepping stone towards accountancy. This qualification is appreciated by employers and will cause your CV to linger a while longer on a recruiters desk whilst they check out your additional information.
You have written off the giher qualifications (ACCA and CIMA / CGMA) but as a knowledge base and for opening doors and for just the sheer pride of having those letters after your name where so many others try but fail to attain them there is a lot to be said for either of those (I actually favour ACCA of the two).
Other bodies that you have missed include IFA, AIA, the ACCA FIA qualification, Open University Certificate in accountancy, and many others.
The transition from ICB to level II AAT would be smooth although you would need to get used to a different style of question.
ICB materials alone would not prepare you for AAT levels III and IV which as I say are more accountancy based than the ICB qualification but from your question I think that you have already realised that.
If your desire is simply knowledge then ask yourself seriously exactly what knowledge you desire rather than the minimum you need for now.
ACCA may seem expensive but also factor in that you can self teach ACCA where a training provider for AAT which could actually make the lower qualification the more expensive option depending on your learning style and motivation.
Then there is content. AAT will take a lot of your spare time. ACCA will take all of your time and you will even find yourself going to sleep at night reciting IFRS's rather than counting sheep. (I generally manage all of the IFRS's but seldom get to the end of the Audit IAS's).
For study time per week for ICB I would allocate 8-12 hours, AAT 12 - 20 Hours, ACCA 20 - 30 hours.
There are much more free ACCA study material out there than the others but you will find that studying ACCA to pass AAT will help you.
Quick question. You work in insolvency at the moment which is a specialised area of accountancy requiring the Audit practicing licence from the ACCA or equivalent. I assume then that you are working with qualified accountants which should allow you to gain the ACCA practical experience requirement. Something that many studying ACCA would kill for the opportunity of.
Why are you not pursuing the insolvency path through to qualification as an accountant as we are talking serious money for that specialisation... Of course, it will take you up to ten years to get your letters plus another two for a practice licence but it seems that you are looking at a serious potential pot of gold there if you decide to pursue that path.
Just a thought. Yes it will set you back 5 to 10 years of your time and £3k+ but just thought that I needed to bring your attention to something that could well set you up in a career bringing £60k+ per annum.
It sounds as though you have a great potential opportunity to exploit your current position to the full.
Just something to think about before pursuing a faster, simpler path.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
like Shaun says the ICB is great for selfemployment but not for employment. It probably wouldnt be enough on its own to skip level 3. Whilst it covers double entry and preparing accounts there are no costing/managment accounts element to the ICB, and you would need to atleast do the level 3 costing units and you would come unstuck going straight into financial performance at level 4 with no costing experience.
The AAT would get you exemtpions from ACCA, unlike the ICB, and it would be a sort of half way house in that you would be able to get a recognised qualification without the long slog of the ACCA.
If you like the insolvency industry, getting a professional qualification such as ACA or ACCA would really set you up for life.
The ICB would be a good introduction to bookkeeping, and it is very good at the market it is aimed at. The AAT is a halfway house between that and the ACCA. If you are absolutely certain you want to be ACCA qualified and you have to time and money to do it, i would go straight for that. But i think the AAT would be a good introudction, without the commitment of 5+ years.
if you are going to spend money on a qualification you want to be sure that you will finish it, but that isnt to say that going straight to the ACCA would be the wrong option, it just depends on your circumstances and aims.
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
Thanks so much for your in depth and helpful replies. I should have mentioned in my original post that my current job is in the public sector and I am a Civil Servant. My job was extremely specialised within insolvency only dealing with bankrupts and Comulsory Liquidations. I have now moved within the department to an investigatory role which focuses solely on companies and the directors misconduct.
What put me off ACCA was the requirement for practical experience. We do not work alongside qualified accountants and so I would need to leave and take up some form of training post in private practice for a while. This would mean a lot lower pay as I am in the £35k+ pay bracket at the moment. Your probably wondering what the issue is as that is a lot of money to be paid, well my issue is progresion, I am 30 years old and I have no way of progressing within the organisation due to governemt cuts etc. It is also difficult for me to move into private practice due to the narrow nature of my role for the past 10 years.
This is why I am looking to branch out. My initial aim is to have a better understanding of basic level accountancy and bookkeeping, which will help my job at the moment and also enable me to branch out as self employed. Longer term it will also give me a good base for attempting the ACCA if thats what I want to do.
I certainly don't want to right off the possibility of working in private practice but I am not sure my experience, even if I was ACCA qualified in 5 years, would enable me to command the same or more salary than I will be on in 5 years. I will be breaching £40k and I don't see a newly qualified ACCA member with no previous experience besides public sector insolvency and investigation commanding that kind of money.
I think my aim initially is to be able to practice as self employed whilst working in the Civil Service and then to assess the opportunities in private practice. Again, any comments greatly received.
Ah, but because one starts out ACCA doesn't mean that they stay there!
The ACCA qualification is second to non (dare I say it, even ACA). Many people take the ACCA qualifications then unable to gain all of the required experience jump to alternate bodies such as IFA and AIA by way of complete exemption.
There are a lot of ACCA qualified IFA accountants out there which is a situation where everyone (especially the IFA) benefits... By the way, when I talk about IFA that Institute of Financial Accountants rather than Independent Financial Adviser.
Specialist knowledge in the insolvency sector combined with the ACCA qualification will open doors into practice and consultancy.
£40k is not a lot of money for insolvency specialists. But you are right, a newly qualified ACCA without that sort of background would be on only half to two thirds of that.
Your experience in one area combined with a serious qualification can open doors to pick up the rest although you may find that the fact that you come from the public sector will leave some doors quite firmly closed.
One good approach may be approaching the consultancy firms who deal with the public sector.
3 to 5 years working for a large firm will wipe clean any misgivings that some employers have about recruiting ex public sector.
On the 5 years front the ACCA tell people that such is what it will take but that expects you to be doing to the qualification pretty much full time. Not for people like ourselves with work and family commitments.
The first three papers sucker you in. The next six teach you (and imbed) a high level of skills the final five are just mean! (consider 1-3 as A levels, 4-9 a BSc and 10-14 an MSc).
You can do the first three or full AAT within two years (and the AAT if you went down that path would exempt you from ACCA papers 1-3).
The next six will take two to three years (factor in a couple of fails)
The final five I would say at least two years (but expect to take multiple retakes on some papers... You would not believe how difficult it is to get to 50%!!!).
You do not have to have gained any experience during that time to get to Associate level membership but you cannot gain full membership until you have three years experience and to gain a practice certificate two years post qualification although for that refer back to skipping memberships above.
From your requirements I would say that you should look at either AAT or ACCA.
ICB would be quick and you would pick up the basics which you could then build upon but I am not seeing how you would use the qualification as I am reading it that you want to be employed, you want to make a good salary, you want to have security. For those you need a qualification that is well recognised by employers and unfortunately the ICB one really isn't there yet.
Maybe your first step though should actually be a good book rather than a qualification.
very good book at a reasonable price. Also, no matter which body you eventually go with it will remain as an excellent reference book throughout your studies.
I hope that some of the above was felt relevant to your situation although I'm sure that some of it was not.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
depends if he wants to be a bookkeeper or an accountant calling themselves a bookkeeper.
regulation 8 allows one to offer bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll work. The issue is that one cannot offer any advice or file any returns which for most of us renders such more of a ball and chain than a benefit.
The impression that I have from the posts is that Martynp69 is stuck in a rut and is trying to work out the best way to get out of it.
As an outsider looking in I cn see that the insolvency work that he is doing at the moment sounds as though there is something there already that can be built upon.
I think that in the replies we have covered a wide range of possibilities and options. What he does with the information is very much down to him but it's just nice to have the full spectrum of options laid out rather than a narrow selection.
ACCA is an option as is AAT.
I don't know how much benefit he would gain from the ICB qualification but the ICB training would certainly give him foundations.
The main thing that I was picking up on was that he wanted to gain a better understanding of bookkeeping and accounting. I felt that the self employed bookkeeper was only a secondary consideration espehially as he is planning around the next ten years in his current job and is worried that even newly qualified ACCA will mean coming down in salary therefore the intention must be that the extra knowledge is primarily to enhance his existing role and prospects.
Just my reading of the scenario and others may have read it differently,
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thanks again for the time and effort you have put in Shamus answering my questions. Your comments have been gratefully received.
I have decided to study the AAT and now need to decide which (if any) training provider to use. I may just get the books and study on my own but have asked for comments/advice in a separate post about that.
ICB does get you some exemptions from ACCA (discussed on here and the ICB's own forum by members and what exemptions they have got). It wont be as many as AAT, but it does mean you can go from ICB to ACCA without having to do AAT in the middle. ICB has just launched level 4 so that might change in a couple of years.
Where you might get more exemptions with AAT and be able to skip more of ACCA's lower levels, it is worth working out if any time is saved. The ICB is more flexible with examinations and course study (and usually cheaper but I don't want to sound like the cheap option ), so it might be quicker to study ICB and then go onto ACCA at a lower level.
It was also mentioned the ICB's texts books wouldn't cover AAT's levels. It might be worth going into more detail there, as some publishers for some levels use the same text they just change the title on the front page
At the end of the day you could always swap to ICB later, or as Shaun says, to IFA or AIA (most bodies are welcoming of another body's members )
Sorry James, I remember our previous conversation but I am talking about the ACCA professional qualification rather than the ACCA introductory qualification that is replacing CAT.
See below from the exemptions database. Took a while to find as the ACCA have put an hyphen in your institution that doesn't rightly belong there.
If you believe that the ICB should now have more exemptions than are listed you may need to contact the ACCA to get them to change their exemptions database.
Here are excerts taken from the ACCA website today 15/10/2012 for completing ICB, IAB and AAT :
ACCA Qualification - Exemptions
Institution THE INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED BOOK-KEEPERS Programme LEVEL III DIPLOMA IN MANUAL / COMPUTERISED BOOK-KEEPING There are no exemptions awarded for completion of this programme.
Foundations in Accountancy - Exemptions
Institution THE INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED BOOK-KEEPERS Programme LEVEL III DIPLOMA IN MANUAL / COMPUTERISED BOOK-KEEPING Completion of the above programme provides exemption from the following paper(s):
Paper Title FA2 Maintaining Financial Records
ACCA Qualification - Exemptions
Institution INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BOOK-KEEPERS Programme LEVEL 4 DIPLOMA ACCOUNTING TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS Completion of the above programme provides exemption from the following paper(s):
Paper Title F3 Financial Accounting
Foundations in Accountancy - Exemptions
Institution INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BOOK-KEEPERS Programme LEVEL 4 DIPLOMA ACCOUNTING TO INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS Completion of the above programme provides exemption from the following paper(s):
Paper Title FA1 Recording Financial Transactions FA2 Maintaining Financial Records FFA Financial Accounting
ACCA Qualification - Exemptions
Institution ASSOCIATION OF ACCOUNTING TECHNICIANS (AAT) Programme AAT ACCOUNTING QUALIFICATION (NVQ PATHWAY) - Graduates from 01-JUN-2004 to 30-JUN-2012 Please select outcome type and the exemptions awarded will be displayed below.
Outcome NVQ 2 + NVQ 3 + NVQ 4 Completion of the above programme and selected outcome provides exemption from the following paper(s):
Paper Title F1 Accountant in Business F2 Management Accounting F3 Financial Accounting
Foundations in Accountancy - Exemptions
Institution ASSOCIATION OF ACCOUNTING TECHNICIANS (AAT) Programme AAT ACCOUNTING QUALIFICATION (NVQ PATHWAY) - Graduates from 01-JUN-2004 to 30-JUN-2012 Please select outcome type and the exemptions awarded will be displayed below.
Outcome NVQ 2 + NVQ 3 + NVQ 4 Completion of the above programme and selected outcome provides exemption from the following paper(s):
Exemption from all FIA papers.
Kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I got on with a little firm from Scarborough, and whilst i am not looking at retirement, i had at that point, done a degree, changed careers, and then done the AAT so i was no 18 year straight from college.
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
degree's (in the right subject, at the right grade, from the right Uni) get you a job at 21-22
By your 30's they are something that is expected that you once acquired but such will not get you through the door or on their own even to interview.
Experience, professional qualifications, confidence and personality are the four keys. Any three will give you a fighting chance. Four will get your feet under the table.
kind regards,
Shaun,
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
p.s. When you do ACCA, if you want it they give you a BSc from Oxford Brookes University after you've passed the first nine papers (you also have to do a thesis).
Then again, it's not an easy route to a BSc as the first nine are the equivalent of a degree (and the next five are at MSc level).
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
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