Folowing the discussion on the other thread, 

"My problem is that I am not really seeing myself in an employee position anymore. 
I just want to make my own business in any field. I would say accountancy because of the 11 years of study but after all I see, tax returns for £ 30 and jobs paying £ 8 ph for a qualified bookkeeper, maybe just make a research and see what the market needs before deciding to do my own thing. "

 

For me it will be a good start to have in mind where can I get to a business in accounts and why to continue studying and so on, but any effort is deemed to have a result, and if the result is less than min wage (e.g. if you are working as a bookkeeper for £8 ph and you take out insurance, software, hmrc mlr fees, membership fees, etc.) than it will be more than clear that is does not make sense. 

More than this, if you have 30 clients that pays £ 500 each a year (if you are lucky enough :)!!! ) , it will be 15,000, after expenses and tax you get what like £ 10,000 a year maybe ?

 

Should it be some laws and regulations that specifies for example:

The ACCA accountant qualified rate per hour between £ A -  £ B 

The AAT qualified accounting technician rate per hour between  £ X -  £ Y 

The ICB bookeeper qualified rate per hour between £ C -  £ D 

and so on with every qualif. And to impose a clear fee structure for every accounts service. 

This way when you start the qualif you would know where are you heading to. You would know why are you doing it. 

Maybe a petition for the government to establish some min rates per hour for each qualification and to outlaw the unqualified ones ?

The thing is when you start an acoounts qualif you see high earnings like £ 50 k and you do your best to study and pass exams. 

After this you see that the earnings are much, much lower and as a bonus you are not treated with respect at the job and if you make any comment you could easily be replaced with another hundred or thousand of people who are just waiting to take the job straight away.

Maybe I am wrong but this is just how I feel after completing my qualif and after my first job in accounts "experience".

Thank you for reading, 

Adrian  

 

The key to getting good returns Adrian is to develop systems and a value proposition. Have you thought about a franchise? I hear crunchers help you earn top dollar. Can you dress as a sheep? Not to worry, they can teach you.

Kris

p.s. You also need to call yourself an alternative accountant, but I'm sure it's covered in the induction.

-- Edited by kjmcculloch83 on Tuesday 16th of April 2013 11:54:50 PM

Sometimes cheap doesn't turn out to be so cheap, or good after all. I had one client who choose a girl who had just passed her bookkeeping qualifications. She quoted him a far lower rate hourly than me, but when she completed his SA return disregarded all the spreadsheets he had prepared already for his VAT returns, starting from scratch and charged him over £1000 for a set of accounts that should have cost a maximum of £500 for my local area. Another client recently came crawling back after dropping me like a hot stone for a bookkeeper charging less than £8 per hour. Turned out she was a roaring alcoholic binge drinker who would hit the bars and not be seen for a fortnight.

It is frustrating at times when starting out and you see people cutting in at a stupid rate, but they normally don't go the distance. I'm sure you know yourself there is no way you make anywhere near a living charging £8 an hour when self-employed. It comes down to the old saying, charging what you are worth and don't be tempted to compete on price alone.

I find what has worked for me is to compete in other ways - I tend to try to go the extra mile with my clients, to be proactive with them. For example, when flat rate VAT was introduced, I reviewed all my VAT registered clients and contacted the ones that would benefit from it. I still speak to people (non-clients) about flat rate, a lot say they have never heard of it, then say "why hasn't my accountant told me about that?" I send out quarterly reminders when a VAT return or whatever is due, some accountants don't. Some bigger firms around my area won't even touch bookkeeping for a small sole trader, they tell the client to go away and do it themselves. I will work on site, or will pick up records in the local area if my clients are very busy, little things that make the difference to people. The downside is that to go the extra mile takes time and it took longer to build my business but once I gain a client I tend to keep them and most of my clientele are referrals. I don't know about anyone else, but I have personally found that the ones that don't want to pay or try to dictate a rate aren't worth having.

Ooo Ooo Steve get me the lottery numbers

lol Kris,

if poor old Adrian hasn't read the sheep video thread he will be sitting there now scratching his head wondering what on earth you are talking about.



Adrian,

Kris is refering to the infamous sheep video thread which managed to extract my only (slight) expletive on the site.

See here for the thread :

http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t50147109/positioning-for-bookkeepers/?page=1



As for the question, in hindsight would I do this or something else?

This would definitely be my choice of occupation despite its occassional shortfalls.

I came from management consultancy / accounting over in the banking sector and there is a lot of commonality between that role and this except that on this side of the fence you are truly your own boss rather than on the other side being your own boss only in so far as you were not a permanent employee in name (or employment rights) even though you were in every other respect.

At times this side of the fence does feel like a game of monopoly where you spend a few cycles of the board going round not making any money (or even losing money) but, using that analogy, think of the clients as the little houses and hotels that you acquire and as things progress finances will with a bit of luck get better... My god, started off answering a question and think that I've just invented a new board game!

In short, if I could do it all again the only change that I would make would have been to have done the ACCA qualification much earlier in my career.

Dear Shaun,
After failing F6 with embarrassing 27 marks, I was decided to let ACCA on the second plan, but now you are making more clear than ever that I have to continue this.
I remember what I have done after failing. Sent email to them asking what happens if I only take half of exams in ten years time, will I still have a little bit of ACCA qualification ? :)


:)

And there was i thinking that you were trying to resurrect a certain someone by mentioning a certain franchise Kris.

'4 months, and alls well' the cry goes out. lol.

With F6 that is your first ACCA paper and the difference from the level and breadth of knowledge expected at AAT plus the pressure on the day will have come as a system shock.

You will hit problem papers.

I had a sitting of P5 where the first question was to my mind badly written with several ways of interpreting the requirements.

All that I could do was answer the best I could and then waste time wring an explanation to the marker why I had taken the approach that I had.

I failed that one but not as badly as I thought that I would saying as I did not have time in the hall to even attempt the two optional questions so 40% of the mark was not available straight away.

You will hit papers like that yourself and the fact that everyone on the Opentuition forums comes out with the same complaints is no compensation for knowing that you have failed as soon as you walk out of the hall.

One thing that I did learn from that was to be ruthless in the exam hall and if a question is giving you real problems understanding the question itself then leave an approperiate gap in the answer booklet and come back to it later if you have the time as you may be losing easy marks for an issue that is not yours.

If its any reassurance, with the first audit paper I was not prepared for the fact that audit tests not audit mechanics alone but rather financial reporting from the perspective of telling you about things that a company has done and expecting you to identify often hidden, implied issues and state the effect on the financial statement in addition to applying all of the audit specific standards and discuss ethical issues.

First time that I took that paper I had studied only the materials for F8 but the rerality is that you need to study F8 and F7 together regardless as to whether you are taking them at the same time (and the same with P2 and P7).

First sitting I scored 33%. Second sitting 53% and that was just down to running out of writing time after filling the answer book and two extension books (I actually felt robbed at 53% but have to make some allowance for the poor marker maybe not being able to read some of my exam script scrawl).

First time that I did P2 I sat in front of the question paper before we were allowed to open it and for the first time in my studies I was petrified that I was going to open it and find a Group Cashflow statement question as the first one... If you feel like that in an exam you are not well enough prepared and I was quite happy that I only got 44% in that one as I felt that I did not deserve a pass is I was dependant upon the right questions coming up.

I was much better prepared the second time.

With ACCA don't fall at the first hurdle.

Some papers you will pass first time, others may take several attempts (I became a little complacent I think as I sailed the first seven before hitting the issue with F8 which made me wake up and smell the coffee when it comes to study).

Look above at the F6 plan that I gave you and start preparing for your next attempt from the stronger position of knowing what to expect on the day.

You passed AAT, you CAN pass ACCA but you need to change your learning and exam styles from your AAT studies.

Good luck Adrian,

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Hi Iain,

Whilsy the words accountant and bookkeeper are unprotected and open to misuse, Auditing and Insolvency are protected in statute and even with the professional bodies practice certificates for those services go above and beyond normal practicing certificates.

The issue as I say about the ICB wanting bookkeeper defined is that it would defeat the Governments arguement that the word Accountant cannot be enshrined in statute (their arguement being that too many people would lose their livelihoods).

My concern is that if both terms are defined in statute then accountancy would take all of the lucrative work and bookkeeping would be reduced to little more than data entry work which is why the whole idea of the move to have the bookkeeping profession officially recognised is really like Turkeys voting for Christmas!

Our own worst enemy I feel are ourselves in that we have artificially made two levels of the same business into two seperate businesses where even those within it have difficulty determining where one ends and the other begins.

Thank you Kris,

Your advice is extremely useful, as I would say than I am thinking on starting by myself. It is not easy, but I have the BookCert Kit, The AAT, and most important I found here people willing to help me and share their experience.

I would like to thank you very much.

Best regards,

Adrian

p.s. You have the Bookcert kit you say.

As a new start how useful are you finding the kit?

I've not seen it myself and am interested in peoples opinions of it as it's something that is often asked about on the site.

Many thanks for the Review Adrian. Its going to be quite useful to point people at this post whenever we get people asking about the kit.

I was beginning to think that I was going to have to buy it just in order to answer questions on it rather than actually from needing to use it, lol.

right, I'll leave you to your F6 studies,

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. Just thinking of your intentions and a quicik warning that as you are a student of the ACCA, no matter what the AAT will allow you to do your ACCA membership means that until you have an ACCA practicing certificate you can ONLY (unless under the direct supervision of a suitably qualified accountant) offer the services of bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll. No filing, no advice, no accounts prep. (see ACCA regualtion 8).

And thats the downside of being a student of the ACCA!

Evening Adrain,

Option 1 sounds good.

Option 2 could (potentially) return more money in the long run than option 1 but money isn't the only consideration and there is no guarantee that it will return more.

Option 3 requires you to be on a training contract which in many ways is worse than regulation 8. However, if you can get a training contract I would snatch the hands off of the person offering it as Chartered is still the only accountancy qualification where there are more positions than people available to fill them. But, finding a training contract is problematic.

There is however an AAT => ICAEW fasttrack option.

Not upset at all at anything that you've said, sorry if I've given that impression. It was not intentional but I answer questions at the same time as doing other things so the occassional reply may be a little rushed and perhaps not come accross as intended.

It doesn't happen very often but on the odd occassion that I do get upset with someone on the site they are under no illusions about whether or not I am upset with them. lol.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Just to echo the comments from Shaun and Neil.

I have been looking at doing the CIMA qualification - using all the various exemptions I get from current qualifications I would only have to take the final set of papers. But when I look at the salaries currently on offer in the North Midlands for management accountant, Financial controller etc jobs requiring CIMA ACCA or ACA they are considerable less than what I get currently get in a Financial Controller role I obtained based on experience and my FFA qualification.

The CCAB qualifications [and I still include CIMA in there as equivalent although I know they have left] are the top level and most sought after by recruiters and, purely from a personal point of view I would like to qualify as one. As for a variety of reasons I didn't complete ACA in my early 20s. However I don't believe it will advance my career proportionate to the time spent on it. Which is why I switched across to the Tax qualifications route.



Hal FFA FFTA

-- Edited by Hal on Thursday 18th of April 2013 09:13:42 AM

I have 2 walls and a window already and have no intention whatsoever of using Sage. It has been stuffed down my throat at every available opportunity either through study
or business.

I've been playing with Quickbooks and it's easy to pick up, i would however like something with all the frills taken out. I installed the demo version of VT but time ran out before i could play due to study/revision (stupidly i installed it as i started level 4, then realised that Financial Statements was going to rule my life). I'll try another email address to get the demo again. Taxcalc would be a no not just yet but is handy to know about. Excel got. Payroll outsourced.

Vonage sounds brill.

Nice post Shaun, ta very much.

The problem i had with the client wasn't so much as working from incomplete records as to trying to work with no records. How would you go about this, it must be a best estimate to fill in a cashbook (the client is a beutician/hairdresser and apparently the business is flying, i don't think they get too many Kris's visiting lol)

-- Edited by Spamkebab on Thursday 18th of April 2013 10:02:56 AM

lol Neil,

yes, I don't think that Adrain has yet appreciated that he needs to be wearing a bullet proof vest when going for interviews.

... If you have money pouring out of your ears you can actually buy your way into a training contract...

There is a certain chartered franchise (not going to say their name on here but there is only one of them) which is recognised by the ICAEW as a trainer and they have spoken to me previously about the route ACCA => AAT => ICAEW using the exemptions from ACCA to gain full AAT and most of the ACA qualification leaving just three papers to take and ICAEW let you take the books into the exam so how hard can that be (lol, that was sarcasm. I know that its still every bit as much of a nightmare as ACCA).

Of course, the downside there is an inintial franchise fee plus ongoing guaranteed franchise payments regardless of actual turnover.

What really sent warning bells off in my head though was that they would not let you see the contract until much later in the process where to me the contract should be available to view for a franchise right from the get go.

Anyway, that was some time ago and I would not look at that option now (not a big fan of the Franchise model which reminds me quite a lot of taking all of the worst parts of a partnership and that being the best part of the generally one sided arrangements).

With this one there was the carrot of becoming Chartered but my money would be on some Draconian tie in within the franchise agreement that they would not let me see (I'm pretty good at reading between lines in contracts).

Another option for getting a training contract is to become successful as an SME accountant and then exchange all of your clients for a trainee position (I've had that option offered to me as well).

Another option is buying into practice.

People seem surprised but not all named partners in a chartered practice need to be chartered (I think tha the rule is that two thirds of them do and for ACCA its 51%). However, as I've mentioned to you before Neil, that option is nice house Mortgage territory to buy into even quite small practices and you still need to be a qualified accountant who has proven themselves before going down that route.

All in all, if you see your market as being the SME sector then MAAT MIP really does seem to be the best option (espechially with a pre September 2013 AAT qualification!).

If however you see yourself working in practice for others or in industry then ACCA is the way to go unless you are able to get a training contract with a chartered firm.

At the moment although it may not feel like it you are in a good place with MAAT and what happens next (self employment / practice position / industry) will decide for you the next best step forwards.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Hi Neil,

Software for the small accountancy practice :

VT Accounts / VT Transaction+ / Excel / Taxcalc / 12Pay

less than £900 for the lot with the bulk of it (£450) being on Taxcalc which you can actually live without (I am at the moment but Taxcalc would make life easier).

You may also want to consider Sage but keep the licencing down by putting as many clients as you can onto VT. (Basically don't buy Sage unless you really have to but don't turn clients away who would turn a profit but they need Sage).

Right, thats your software sorted.

For a phone, if you already have a line that you can use look at getting a business number from Vonage that you can direct to your existing lines and switch lines on and off very easily so, for example people may phone a local land line but you pick up on your mobile. Callers only pay for a local call and you don't get bled dry by the charges on a BT business line (I wasn't happy that I agreed one price with BT but they had put that up from the offered deal by the time that they installed the line).

Sorted.

When do you start trading?



p.s. with the wind last night I would definitely go for four walls rather than just the two otherwise your going to have a hell of a job keeping your paperwork straight.

Good morning :)

Many thanks, honestly I feel much better when I see that I am not the only one who has these issues in mind.

As I intend to buy books and cd`s and other training materials to support my business, are they considered allowable expenses 100 % ?
They seems like wholly and exclusively to me.

Good news: MLR is due at the end of the month. yupyyyy :)
Should I purchase VT Transaction ++ in advance just the get the hang of it, to see the menus, play with the functions ?
Is out-there in the market a `new` user friendly manual ? The one downloaded from their site looks like a foreign language to me
(or I would just ask here until people will throw rocks at me :) lol


Thank you,

Have a lovely day as weekend is coming over soon.

Adrian

Hello Neil,

As an alternative, I have just sign a contract with Vodafone, £ 20.50 a month unlimited calls on UK mobiles and landlines and unlimited texts.
Tricky bit: if you have a conversation that lasts more an hour, hang up after 59 min and call the person again as after 1 hour they will charge you.

Cheers

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

the issue with mobile numbers is that people are adverse to phoning them when there is not also an associated landline.

With the Vonage approach you buy a number then use your comuter to direct calls to wherever you like and to as many phone lines as you like including mobile.

Generally when I am called three phones are contacted and I can pick up from any of them without the called having any idea whether I'm at home, in the office or indeed in Tesco's car park.

Also callers only pay for a local number whereas if they phone a mobile they are paying more.

There is no reason that you could not buy a landline number that went only to your mobile but you will be hit with the additional charges yourself when receiving calls.

I would never tell a client that I was going to hang up and call back but there are not that many conversations that last more than an hour on the phone.

sorry, the first line is Thank you Shaun,

Sorry Neil I have just made a mistake.

My apologies.

Adrian

it costs me £5.99 a month for the number and the redirections are per second and very resonably priced (that was my worry as well when I took it on).

Outgoing calls are all from your normal phone arrangements, incoming calls from landlines are inclusive in the tarriff and its just mobiles that will cost but as I say, its not worked out at all badly for me.

With your website unless you are a limited company you do not need to publish your address on your website.

Do not use internet email addresses on the website even if the website redirects the mail to an internet email address as such email addresses look unprofessional.

The whole idea of virtual addresses is not a direction that I would go in for a bookkeeping / accountancy business but rather simply be selective as to who you give your address to rather than publishing it.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Generally less than a tenner a month as the bulk of people call it using landlines and outgoing calls are non vonage calls.

Your website will generally come with some email accounts (I think that I got 5 thrown in with mine). All that you do is set the accounts up to direct the emails to where you want them to go so, for example adrian@abc.co.uk would actually be sent directly to Adrian@gmail.com but the first address looks more professional (and more permanent).

As I say, it shouldn't cost you any more for a few email addresses attached to your site.

I use Namesco for my site and I've always found them very helpful and professional. The Sitemaker package does take a bit of getting used to but once you do its pretty straight forwards. Can't remember the price of the site off the top of my head but its less than £100 per year.

Sorry Shaun you have already replied to this one,

Sorry,

me silly now,

Sorry,

it is because of the weather :)

Cheers

Adrian