Hi I am currently a working in finance and have been for the past 10 years and am looking to soon venture into my own small business offering bookkeeping and self assessment. I have completed the AAT up to technician stage but this was back in 2005 and I have not continued membership so would like to refresh on some things so am looking at the ICB career path with Ideal Schools which is the complete course including the self assessment. It has two options of Sage Line Instant or Sage Line 50.
I am leaning towards sage 50 as I have used this. Could you let me know if anyone would recommend this path and if I would need any further experience after passing to be able to gain my practice certificate to offer bookkeeping services.
Have you phoned the AAT and asked for their advice, to see if there's anything you can do about rejoining and using your Quals & experience to get your licence?
"Working in Finance" is a bit ominous? That could mean anything.. tell us more :)
I've worked as a legal cashier and been in construction for the last 6 years, covered all aspects of purchase and sales ledger, bank recs, journals, contract costing etc and am confident up to trial balance within a company but have not progressed in my career over the years due to having children and taking on a purchase ledger roll with less responsiblity but hours to suit so now want to take that step. I am confident enough when it comes to bookkeeping but not with the self assessment. I have contacted the AAT today to see if it is possible to re sit level 4 as another option. However the ICB seems more flexible and simpler as I can apply for this one course refresh on the bookkeeping get through what I know quite quickly and concenteate on the self assessment and gaining membership etc do you not think this is the case would AAT be a better option?
There are so many different routes it gets a bit difficult to decide which route to take
Have the AAT said that you have to resit the whole of level 4 to become a member again?
It sounds like you have 5 years experience in bookkeeping, so if you can become a member again, you should be able to get a licence for the bookkeeping alone?
But, you would need 5 years experience in self assessment, as well as, passes in the AAT personal and business tax exams.
I am not sure how much experience the ICB require, but I would be pretty grated if they just let people take exams and then practice. Everyone I know who has used the ICB route, have worked in an accountancy pratice for years, but just not stayed as members of their accountancy body.
I'm awaiting a reply, I've emailed them as it was Sunday. They haven't said I have to resit but I would like to do some sort of refresher course eitherway (my brain has been dormant for a while!)
I will ring the AAT tomorrow see what my options are with them and also the ICB to see what their requirements are.
This is pretty much what the ICB is like. There is no requirement to have any experience either pre or post exams. If you pass the assessments and pay the fees you can practice. It's as simple as that. This is one of the reasons ICB has proved so popular with self employed bookkeepers. I believe they even have a separate assessment for those who have previous knowledge meaning you don't need to start right at level 1, but I could be wrong with that bit.
I can see why you'd think that, but it's really not so bad. This was me a few years ago. I came to bookkeeping a few years ago with no experience under my belt. I took an ICB distance learning course and a year later was in practice. Remember that no qualifications or experience to say you're a bookkeeper, so surely one is much better. I don't think I'm the only one on the forum to have done this and within a few years I won an award, voted for by the member here.
I've never had any real issues, nor have I ever taken on work I feel I'm not competent to do. This, in my opinion, is far more important than having years of experience. Lets face it, someone could have 10 years experience in one single aspect of bookkeeping, does this really make them better at everything?
It should be noted that, although ICB do not insist on any level of previous experience before practicing, they provide an extensive support system to ensure those with new practices have professional back-up.
It's not so much the bookkeeping side that I find worrying. It's the tax side of things that I just can't get my head round. Doing a basic return, yes it's quite simple.. But... Oh I don't know how to phrase it... It's like... Seeing someone with a cold and just giving linctus because thats all you've been taught, when in actual fact it could be meningitis and lack of experience meant you missed the little signs or didn't know to check.. I dunno.. I just feel like there's a responsibility that comes with the job.. And if a member of the public see certificates, they think they are safe, and they trust you... But how safe can they be when someone had simply passed an exam? Would you want to be operated on by that doctor?!
I know I'm probably in for it now! And its not on attack on members.. hey if they let you, why not? I do recognise that some will be awesome without the experience, and others won't.. But how is that regulated? Im just a bit disturbed that its allowed to happen through a main governing body.
It is the self assessment side of things that I am not confident with offering and wouldn't do so until I was.
I have helped completed my Aunties (a child minder) and partners (painte and decorator) for the last few years and do find that I am able to find answers to anything I am unsure about, there is such a wide scope I think that knowledge comes with experience rather than study saying that I've been working with the CIS scope for 6 years and still have to refer back to the HMRC at times!
I have emailed the ICB regarding my AAT thanks Kris. I do believe that I am able to register and just sit the exams I am confident with however the package offered by ideal schools offers the full course with the payroll and self assessment and The Sage software at not much more than I would pay for the later levels separately I believe.
Thank you all for your advise, I will take the first step and get back into study and see what happens from there
The best of luck, Bethan82. It's exciting times! You are really brave to make the step, it's so easy to let the fear hold you back. Looking forward to hearing your progress through your future posts :)
Fear has held me back for too long and coming across this forum has helped, reading through and seeing there are people in the same position as well as people willing to help is a comforting thought :)
One more question if you don't mind, I'm trying to make a choice between the sage instant and sage 50 courses. I have used sage 50 before but not the sage instant and there is a few hundred pounds difference in the price, would anyone reccomend one or the other? Or would either be sufficient?
I hope you don't mind me replying directly as I'm aware you may prefer a more impartial view, but the following is provided in all honesty. The main advantage of the Sage 50 Accounts package is that you can later add company licences which will be very useful when starting up on your own as a bookkeeper. The instant option, although ideal for training, has limitations when offering bookkeeping services to multiple clients.
Via Sage there is a £450 difference in costs between the instant & 50 packages, so the £250 difference in course costs is not too bad a deal
Personally I would advise either VT or Quickbooks but if you absolutely with a gun to your head had to pick between the better of those two then really it has to be 50 in order to be working with such things as departments and the extended range of reports.
Ideal do a good deal with a single user single company version of the software thrown in for you to practice on but remember that as soon as you start working with your own clients you are going to need to extend your licence for more clients.
Sage do them in blocks. If you fancied knowing what you are likely to be paying just pop off to their site and take a look at 25 clients.
The likes of Quickbooks and VT charge no more whether you have 1 client or 100.... But, there are some clients that you cannot wean off Sage and some clients that it would be wrong to as for some it is the best software for their businesses espechially when they have been using it for some time.
Note that I believe that we are going to see a change in the UK with QB becoming a real market contender. I know that some of the training companies are already looking at putting together quickbooks courses as an option as opposed to Sage for ICB qualifications as Sage really seem to be pricing themselves out of the micro business market with their licensing.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
We agree that 50 is the better option. My issue is not the version but whether Sage is the right option at all for start up bookkeepers... Have Ideal looked at QB as an option? couple of hundred for the software (if you buy it from Amazon rather than Intuit) and then you can service 100 clients which is more than enough for just about all bookkeepers (there are I know (from the ICB statistics) a couple of larger exceptions but they have multiple bookkeepers within the practice so would need multiple licences anyway).
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
In advance I apologise for spelling errors and nonsensical comments as my HTC seems to struggle to be understood within this forum.
Licensing through sage does not have to be overly expensive. Our own students benefit greatly from significant discounts on company licences and once these are organised there are no ongoing costs as the license belongs to the account holder. The sage bookkeeper or accountant club is a good concept and, in my view, fine for accountants that charge highrr rates than bookkeeperby. However, with annual fees of almost £800 plus vat, can prove to be quite an expensive option.there are also ongoing costs with the likes of qb & vt.
The fact remains that sage have a far higher market share, including within accounting firms, which is a great source of income for many bookkeepers. To have compatible software can only be beneficial, surely.
In relation to offering training on other software packages, we have surveyed our students on numerous occasions and there doesnt seem to much of a demand.
In my own view, each to their own, but there is a reason why its virtually impossible to find a training course on software that is not sage.
Thank you both. The decision is solely based on completing the course rather than when I start up my bookkeeping business, I have used sage 50 so I thought it may be the better option, to be honest after years of using sage in work I am not a big fan, I don't think it is something I would invest in myself.
The best time to get Sage seems to be September, as it is their year end, and they want to make their quotas. No doubt they over inflate their prices to begin with, but I haggled mine down to half the price.
I think Xero offer some sort of accreditation, as do Quickbooks, so I would have thought they'd have training sessions, but I don't care for either software to be honest, so have never looked into it. I got Quickbooks Accountant Pro 2013 free after attending a seminar they invited me to, and I just use it to restore back ups, or provide assistance to the odd client.
It might be worth having a nosey for some second hand sage training manuals on ebay? They do a three level course - but the CD only gives you 180 day trial then you have to register, which no doubt involves parting with some cash. But if you can do it in the 180 days, I guess you're on a winner?
In that case sage instant would be your best option, keeping your training costs down. Good time to register too as you'll get level 4 courses and training free of charge.
Note that I believe that we are going to see a change in the UK with QB becoming a real market contender. I know that some of the training companies are already looking at putting together quickbooks courses as an option as opposed to Sage for ICB qualifications as Sage really seem to be pricing themselves out of the micro business market with their licensing.
kind regards,
Shaun.
You are bob-on with this Shaun.
Both Xero and QB have been really driving with their software recently. Barclays have been offering £50 cashback via formation companies, for setting up an account, and then at the set up meeting, they are trying to sell QB subscriptions.
I had client paying £28 per month for the cloud version, so I told them to pay a one off £70 for 2012 Sage Instant, and keep that for 5 years instead.
yep, it seems that both Barclays and Lloyds have dropped the Sage only options when they are pushing software to new businesses.
Intuit's roadshow and their appearance at the ICB conference giving away accountant copies of their software to genuine accountancy and bookkeeping practices was pretty much a stroke of genius and to my mind there is a real market place for those sick to the back teeth of keeping Sage shareholders happy.
The real issue is a chicken and egg one in that people are not moving because they cannot get training and it seems that training companies are not offering the courses because there is no market... Which is caused by no training.
Once one training company offers a viable course the others will be forced to follow suit. And I know of one that is developing a quickbooks course.
All in all I think that Sage just pushed things too far with their licencing but once their market starts to disappear from under them they will have no choice but to make their licencing more reasonable... Then again, I thought that of business rates but what actually seems to ghappen is that the more businesses are being forced out by high rates leaving empty shops that more that the rates are increased on the remiaining shops to maintain income levels with no perception that eventually the high street will be empty.
Lets hope that Sage / local Government analogy is not correct or Sage will end up on Intuits Christmas card list for the amount of businesses that switch allegiences.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
its a real chicken and egg cunundrum in that are Sage the market leader because theirs is the only training available or is Sage the only training available because they are the market leader.
Whatever the situation now there is no doubt that the tide is changing much as happened with Lotus 1-2-3 and Excel.
As discussed above with Michelle the stranglehold that Sage once had on the market is disappearing in that the banks are now pushing QB as well as Sage which should help to disipate long held misconceptions that running a business and using Sage are synonymous.
My experience of sage users in micro businesses has been that for the most part they would have been far better off just keeping a spreadsheet in Excel and giving that to the bookkeeper / accountant at the period end to put it into whatever software they choose to use, be that Sage, Quickbooks, VT or whatever.
For larger small businesses Sage comes into their own and that's going to be the battle ground on which Intuit takes them on.
The larger the business the more likely it seems that Sage is left behind for SAP or bespoke sollutions so really the battle field is restricted to the SME market place.
I don't envy Sage in that battle that's on the cards espechially with the resources that Intuit has at it's disposal (Intuit being larger than Sage).
I think that the Intuit roadshow of 2012 was just the first warning shots in what will turn into a sustained campaign to whittle away Sage market share. At the end of this I don't expect the landscape to be the same either in terms of the software, or licencing, or the accountancy software training markets.
As the old Chinese proverb goes "We are living in interesting times".
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
