Grrrr! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Grrrr!

VinceH · Expert

Well, strictly speaking the aim of the post was to attract the attention of whoever set the forum up in the first place. The forum software may be off-the-shelf, and they might have no knowledge of the underlying technology, but can relay the problem back to the actual developers - or they have modified it to suit their needs (and could modify it anyway).

However, in as lay-terms as I can:

A normal link in HTML would look like (using the example from the site itself):

< a href="http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/p/recent/" > Recent Posts < /a >

(Spaces between the angle brackets and the text deliberately inserted*)

That's basic HTML, and it will work in any web browser.

Sometimes it's nice to wrap links up in a bit of Javascript, to do clever stuff.

An old, common, over-used example would be a roll-over, whereby a small graphic/icon is used for the link, and when the mouse is over it, a slightly different graphic/icon is displayed.

This can be done for textual links as well, and that's what is done on this forum; if you hover the mouse over the links on the navigation bar - Home, User Details, Search, Recent Posts, Links - the relevant link is highlighted. This is done with two Javascript functions hilite() and lolite() called via onMouseOver and onMouseOut.

(And even that's overkill - it's unnecessary since it can be done with a simple bit of CSS!)

The problem, though, is that whoever wrote that bit of HTML/Javascript pointlessness has gone a step too far, because as well as using it for fluff link the highlighting, he/she/they have also used it for the link: It's the Javascript that detects that the user has clicked on a link, using onClick, and the normal HTML link, as shown above, has been rendered useless with a link that contains nohref - that's "no href" instead of href="address"

And that means that if you use a web browser with no Javascript, or with Javascript disabled, those links do not work.

I spotted the problem this morning, because I was using a different computer system, with a different browser - one that, strangely enough, comes in two flavours: One with no Javascript, and one with only an experimental (and therefore not entirely working) Javascript engine.

If you'd care to try it for yourself, there is a Windows build that lacks Javascript entirely - it's useful for seeing which websites (and forum software etc) are written with end-users in mind, and which are written by people who deserve to be shot.

http://ci.netsurf-browser.org/builds/windows/ (The most recent build is at the bottom of the page).

Also, I'm not entirely sure how Javascript (and therefore Javascript-only links) would work on browsers designed for people with sight problems - so the forum might be falling foul of the disability discrimination act.

* Typing the link normally causes the forum software to recognise it as a link. Using < and > for the angle brackets causes < and > to be displayed as text. That's a bit b0rked.

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:39:52 AM

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:43:10 AM

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:44:04 AM

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:45:14 AM

Peasie · Expert

Shamus wrote:
Firefox may not be the fastest but it's robust and at the moment I've got 96 tabs open in a single screen (of which I'm sure I must have some of the same sites open more than once) so whilst there may be better browsers I am quite happy with this one.

96 Tabs ?

I didn't know there were 96 websites. I only use about a dozen. I have 5 tabs open in Chrome just now - and TWO of them are for this forum. How did that happen? I keep an HMRC tab open as I'm limited to 1½ hours on Twitter/Youtube/Facebook/Pie&Bovril so I can jump to that tab to stop the clock. Amazingly I've managed to be on those for less than 10 minutes today.

ETA : Actually I must use about 26 as I like to play a game where you through the alphabet in the address bar and see what autofill comes up with.

ETA2 : 24 - there is nothing for x and z.

-- Edited by Peasie on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 03:03:15 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

So what the hecks this complete mess....

Bet this is down to me referring to the tech wizards at BKN towers as Umpa Lumpa's...

Mmm, wonder if they've got permission from Gerald Scarf's estate to use the graphics from the wall???.... Says the person with an American Dad avatar!

site mess.jpg

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 06:49:18 PM

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 06:50:38 PM

Peasie · Expert

My bookmarks aren't quite as serious as yours - my excuse is they are the same on Google Chrome regardless of which computer I am using.

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 06:52:31 PM

VinceH · Expert

[much html snippage to get to the point]

onclick="if(!clickTrap){window.location='http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/p/recent/'}

<a nohref>Recent Posts</a>

What does Jeremy Clarkson say about people who write HTML like that?

"I'd have them all shot. I would take them outside and execute them in front of their families. I mean how dare they write HTML that fails to degrade gracefully so that it will work on browsers that either lack Javascript, or have it disabled."

Peasie · Expert

VinceH wrote:

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:39:52 AM

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:43:10 AM

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:44:04 AM

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 25th of June 2013 11:45:14 AM

Four edits - you really are angry. biggrin

VinceH · Expert

Those were actually trying to fix problems caused by the forum software breaking my not-meant-as-links by turning them into links! As well as the one I spaced out after first encoding changing the angle brackets (which were the first two edits), I then spotted another where I mentioned the "nohref" - and that took a couple of attempts to fix because even after applying the same fix, it still displayed a link. In the end I had to retype the [modified] line and then delete the original.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Ok, I understand what you are saying but I am left thinking why not just install Javascript. My impression is that without it browsers such as firefox would crash and burn.

Anyway, whilst I'm techie I'm a different sort of techie used to back end rather than front end applications so whilst I appreciate your anguish I'm sitting here with a working site thinking well I'm alright so this is my problem how? lol.

Joking aside, I have sent Steve a message guiding him to your above posts. I'll let you know what he says once he's spoken to the tech wizards (who I suspect are really Umpa Lumpa's) that he keeps in the basement of BKN towers next to the room where Daves still chained to the wall.

kind regards,

Shaun.

VinceH · Expert

You can't "just install javascript" in a browser that doesn't support it - it's not a separate plug-in, like Java (which some non-techies confuse with Javascript) or Flash. If the browser doesn't have Javascript, the browser doesn't have Javascript.

So you could say "Just use a browser that has it" - except that, on the platform I was using this morning, that isn't a viable possibility. An old version of Firefox is available, but it's ridiculously slow.

(And FWIW, on Windows, even modern Firefox is slow compared with NetSurf; a quick test on this box shows a typical page on El Reg takes about 4 seconds to load and render in Firefox, and just over a second on NetSurf. I think there's a video on YouTube somewhere comparing the two on RISC OS - the platform I was using.)

Firefox won't crash and burn without it - in fact, completely contrary to that notion, NoScript is a quite popular Firefox extension!

"so whilst I appreciate your anguish I'm sitting here with a working site thinking well I'm alright so this is my problem how?"

And that is exactly why people don't notice that they've cocked up their website: It works in their browser, so they think it must work in all browsers, or that everyone uses something that's 100% compatible with what they use.

Just for fun, have a read of this page.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Just for information. The forum is a hosted solution so I doubt the owners will be able to excercise any control over such things anyway.

Kris

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Though they could pay photobucket so we don't see these annoying boxes, but hey-ho

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Ah, but if it was my website rather than someone elses I would either employ an expert such as Kris or yourself (#1), or have a straight out the box sollution where you just slap your pictures and text into an existing framework.

I don't kid myself that I can be an expert at everything but the things that I am good at pays to hire the right people for things that I don't have the time to even think about.

Your right of course, I've absolutely no idea the difference between Java, Javascript, Shockwave, etc. If my browser says it needs something I just go away and get it what it wants.

Firefox may not be the fastest but it's robust and at the moment I've got 96 tabs open in a single screen (of which I'm sure I must have some of the same sites open more than once) so whilst there may be better browsers I am quite happy with this one.

I do sympathise with the line in your post about everyone using a browser compatible with theirs in that I worked with an Assurance company in Edinburgh and the front end boys knew that their software did not work with firefox but their approah was that well everyone should just go and get IE which was free so what were people complaining about.

Whilst I was not in a position to tell them how to do their jobs I was in a position to get rid of the lot of them if they did not sort it out as their impression was that the users would just get a different browser whereas my stance was that they will actually go out and get a different assurance company to look after their investments if they were having problems accessing the site.

The thought of impending P45's changed their stance completely.

kind regards,

Shaun.

#1 not that either of you would actually want to work for me but you know what I mean).

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

speak of the devil....

VinceH · Expert

If, by "hosted solution", you mean it's a complete package: The hosting, including the forum software* (as opposed to simply arranging a hosting package and then installing software of your own or which you've sourced elsewhere), then I would draw your attention to the first paragraph of my initial reply to Shaun, with emphasis added:

"Well, strictly speaking the aim of the post was to attract the attention of whoever set the forum up in the first place. The forum software may be off-the-shelf, and they might have no knowledge of the underlying technology, but can relay the problem back to the actual developers - or they have modified it to suit their needs (and could modify it anyway)."

If this is a "hosted solution" where even the forum software is installed/provided by the hosts, that's where relaying the problem back to the actual developers comes in: The customer talks to the host and says "Oi, this is broken, fix it" and the hosts (if necessary) then talks to whoever provides them with the forum software and says "Oi, our customer has pointed out this is broken, fix it." (And so on until it reaches the ears of someone who can carry out those two magic words: fix it).

It's just silly to idly dismiss it as a "hosted solution" as if that means that's it, end of, nothing can be done.

* And a quick look suggests that is what you meant: it's hosted at 64.34.33.201, which according to ARIN is Sparklit Networks Inc, and judging by their website they do indeed provide complete solutions, such as forums like this - and this would be running on ActiveBoard, which they say:

"is a an easy-to-use hosted forum. We host the forum, maintain the forum software and keep it updated with new features. Setup takes 5 minutes or less, and configuration is a snap."

So that relaying should be as simple as the site owners saying to Sparklit "This is broken, fix it" and Sparklit saying to their developers "This is broken, fix it."

VinceH · Expert

Well, I've read the entire internet twice, and I never needed to have that many tabs open. :p

Peasie · Expert

What is with these Photobucket boxes? They weren't there before.

VinceH · Expert

Oh, that's interesting.

I wondered what you meant by Photobucket boxes - which I'm not seeing in FurryFox, but I just loaded Chrome, IE, Opera, Safari and NetSurf, and almost all the banners* (the BKN's own, and the third party adverts) are appearing with PhotoBucket boxes, saying "Look who's popular. Is this your photo? Upgrade to Plus for additional bandwidth."

How odd.

* All in some browsers, all but one in others.

VinceH · Expert

Perhaps they tried to fix it, but while they were in the process of doing so, someone took my suggestion seriously, and took them outside and executed them in front of their families, before they could finish. :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peasie,

just been through them and it's a lot of different pages from repetitions of the same sites which are :

ACCA
IFA
HMRC
IFAC
ICAEW
BKN
Aweb
VT
Intuit
FRC
IFRS
APB
Deloitte
KPMG
Open Tuition
PQ
Amazon
BBC news
Vistaprint
Namesco
AAT
ICB

not a complete list but you get the general flow.

Peasie · Expert

#PrayForTheUmpaLumpas

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Good news people,

The Photobucket issue has been resolved.

Press cntl +f5 to flush and refresh.

Ta dah, all fixed.

The other issues have been passed to the technical team to look into (Vince, Kris, stand by to be conscripted, lol).

VinceH · Expert

Well, I'll be happy to help - just as long as that help is provided at the hosting company's expense, and at their offices in Vancouver. (I've always fancied a trip to Canada!)

bookkeepers · Administrator

Hi Vince,

Many thanks for highlighting this. I've spoken to our hosting company and on the basis of the issues raised they are going to replace the links in the menu bar which currently function with a javascript event, and update it so that the element contains an HTML link. I'm advised that the functionality will not change for most users, but it will enable the forum to be more accessible for users using screen readers and the like.

Cheers again!

Steve

Steven Hillman FCCA ACA

BKN Managing Director

www.book-keepers.net / www.book-keepers.org.uk

VinceH · Expert

"but it will enable the forum to be more accessible for users using screen readers and the like."

Excellent, thanks.