I'm looking for some input about getting qualified to do accounts and CT return for limited companies.
I'm currently ICB qualified (MICB.Dip, PM.Dip), and can provide services such as bookkeeping, VAT accounting, payroll management and preparation of self-assessment tax returns for individuals. At the moment I can't provide services such as the preparation of final accounts for limited companies and preparation and submission of CT returns. I was looking into progressing my qualification in order to add these services to the list of services I can offer, but I'm finding it difficult to identify a viable option. Bearing in mind that I'm already running my bookkeeping practice (luckily quite busy! ) and it is not possible for me to spend a few years training under an accountant. I was looking at bodies such as AAT, but they do require training under an accountant before you are awarded practice status.
Is there any option to be qualified to do accounts and CT returns (so that PII will cover the work) without having to train under accountants for a few years? I'm not looking at being able to do audits, etc. just accounts and CT returns for very small LTDs. I may be asking for too much, but it's worth asking anyway and this forum seems to be the perfect place to get input...
Thank you for any input you can provide.
Fabs
-- Edited by fabs79 on Monday 14th of October 2013 10:59:48 AM
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Sounds as though you are looking at moving up to accountancy (audit would have been a non starter anyway as that one's protected in law whereas accounts and tax are not).
Generally where people are looking to go there I would have suggested that there starting place should be AAT but as you already have a successful ICB practice have you looked at IFA? and then perhaps do FTA as CPD.
You could either abandon ICB to move up to accountancy or keep ICB as well.
If its anything, look at the BKN bookkeeper of the year for the past three years.
All three of them are with the IFA.
Frauke : IFA, IAB and FTA
Me : IFA (plus PQ ACCA)
Liz : IFA and ICB (think that she might be FTA as well but I would need to check that)
Accross the board evidence that it would be a sound progression from ICB (and evidence that the ICB's accountants can't do bookkeeping is a flawed statement)
I'm not sure what exemptions if any IFA give for ICB but there is always the ICB to IAB to IFA route or preferable to that entry for IFA by examination (the exams are somewhere between AAT and ACCA level and seem to have elements borrowed from both formats).
For info the IFA is recognised as a professional accounting body by IFAC and is a supervisory body for money laundering.
Hope that helps,
kind regards,
Shaun.
p.s. amended because when I pressed send the first two paragraphs had disappeared... Sure that it was me rather than the editor. Anyway, I've put those bits back now.
Also added the line about the level of the IFA exams whilst I was amending it.
-- Edited by Shamus on Monday 14th of October 2013 11:44:01 AM
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
The IAB allow their members in practice to do accounts and CT returns.
Level 4 Diploma in Accounting to International Standards 500/3370/0 is the IAB qualification which also covers the range of IAS requirements. This qualification did have exemptions for most of the accountancy bodies including the IFA and ACCA, but most bodies have changed the exemptions they used to give, so I don't know if they still do.
I think Shauns suggestion of ICB to IAB to IFA route may a good way for you to go, it would take longer, but would not interfere as much with the other work you are doing.
a sound progression from ICB (and evidence that the ICB's accountants can't do bookkeeping is a flawed statement)
That makes no sense, obviously someone who has studied ICB and has run a bookkeeping business before becoming an accountant, will be able to do bookkeeping.
ICB say many accountants cannot do bookkeeping, not all, and therefore a simple home assignment is needed to separate those that can from those that cannot.
You have to remember (I do say this a lot to you Shaun) ICB gets a lot of applications from people who have been accountants for 30-40 years and have never done bookkeeping, or did so 30+ years ago.
I am surprised that ICB have not taken this opportunity to promote ICB level 4 or is it being allowed to die quietly in the corner? I for one (and I know that I am not alone) purchased all the level 4 books in 2011 and then waited for more information, mock exams etc. to become available. The silence was deafening and while waiting I discovered the IFA and am now FTA and studying towards IFA and while I appreciate this is going to a level ICB do not want or claim to be I would have at least tried to sell level 4 to Fabs.
You raise a good point, but personally I think if you want to move into an accountants role it would be better to do like yourself and train with IFA or other accounting body.
However, if you want to continue as a bookkeeper but maybe slightly extend your knowledge and services then the ICB Level 4 is a good option.
I agree with you but just thought that having watched and enjoyed some of the recent friendly banter on other posts that you would have countered IABs level 4 comment by endorsing your own.
a sound progression from ICB (and evidence that the ICB's accountants can't do bookkeeping is a flawed statement)
That makes no sense, obviously someone who has studied ICB and has run a bookkeeping business before becoming an accountant, will be able to do bookkeeping.
ICB say many accountants cannot do bookkeeping, not all, and therefore a simple home assignment is needed to separate those that can from those that cannot.
You have to remember (I do say this a lot to you Shaun) ICB gets a lot of applications from people who have been accountants for 30-40 years and have never done bookkeeping, or did so 30+ years ago.
Morning James,
sorry, didn't have time to respond yesterday.
You have mentioned this simple home test before but it when I questioned about it the question was buried in a much larger debate and I believe that a response to my question was accidentally missed.
Please could you confirm for readers and for advice from myself going forwards what exactly the simple home test gets someone holding an accountantancy qualification applying to the ICB?
If they can prove that they can do basic bookkeepeing are they then given full excemption from all other ICB papers to join as (say) MICB?
Do they have to pay for all the papers that they are exempted from?
The accountant will have passed tax papers and been doing self assessments. Does that also exempt them from the self assessment paper or you would have ICB people doing self assessments that had not passed the ICB self assessment exam.
Would seem if true to be exemptions in reverse in that it would be a pass the basics and be exempted the higher papers but I suppose that would be the reality of the scenerio in that the higher the ICB qualification the closer to accountants terrotory it gets.
That approach would also seem to appease the ICB's view in relation to many accountants not being able to do bookkeeping.
Please confirm the situation with the simple test and any exemptions that gives and the level of ICB membership that accountants who are perhaps retiring from practice and want to act as higher level bookkeepers could expect to be awarded. (I assume those are the ones that you refer to with 30-40 years experience) and what anyone taking that route would be expected to pay for to gain that level of exemption.
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I like the idea of "backwards" exemptions. So any body who is ACA or ACCA, if they did ICB level 1 and 2 (including level 2 comp as they is no computerised element in either) could get an exemption from ICB level 3, level 4 and self assessment. ICB payroll though would need to be passed. I even think AAT could be included as there isn't anything in the ICB at any level which isn't included in the AAT (if you have the full qualification).
Just a suggestion James, but the ICB don't have a list of exemptions like some other bodies do. I know you cant cover every qualification, but surely the main ones could be up on an exemption list somewhere on the website.
All the best
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
The test does vary slightly depending on the experience. ICB talk to the applicants and work out an exemption route to fit, but for example:
ACCA Accountant with 20+ years experience - provide 2 references to vouch for standard of work, most likely will be exempt from ICB's Level 3, 4 and Tax papers. Needs to take home assignment which will be a scenario paper covering Level 1 and 2, possibly some 3.
AAT recently qualified (within 2 years) to Level 4 - Almost full exemption but will be required to take home scenario paper to cover a section on VAT which is usually skipped by AAT and is not tested. This is basically bad debts and VAT return which the ICB goes into a little more detail on.
Fees: You pay an application fee of £48 (if not already a member/student) and then if successful you pay exemption fees for the qualifications you are skipping. So The two above would pay £261 exemption fees and £96 first years membership, making the total joining fee including the first application fee and a years membership £405.
If you have additional exemptions from things like Payroll it is extra (Payroll would be £43 exemption and £16 extra membership fee). Payroll is not normally covered by AAT.
Nick the exemptions table is something I have been requesting for years! ICB's view is the personal approach is better, people can call and talk to a person for advice. I think this is great, and it is popular, but in this modern world people check websites first, and don't always have time to speak to someone. Also many check the website after working hours or at the weekend and the ICB is closed. So you need both options really.
I will mention this post, you are not the only training provider to request it
* 2013 prices
If you are already a student or member of the ICB and have completed another bodies qualification you do not need to pay the application fee. Send in copies of your certificates and pay the exemption fee + any membership upgrade fees. If you are unsure what exemptions you are entitled to please call the ICB.
Thanks for your answer, that was really good and really helpful. I agree the personal approach is good but an on-line page to demonstrate what you can expect would be really useful.
I would commend the ICB on their stance on the ICB deciding which exemptions the student gets. Under the AAT the training provider makes the decisions and there are a number of training providers who will take students on at levels which are not suitable if they are willing to pay.
The only point I do want to make is that maybe the ICB should look again at the AAT ITX unit again. This covers way more VAT than the ICB does (some of which the ICB should be covering e.g. partial exemption, VAT schemes and EU VAT) and I am sure there is nothing missing that a student needs to cover to get the exemption.
Thanks for your reply James.
Kind regards
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
Many thanks for the clarification and cost details James.
I think that you are right in your thwarted requests for an exemptions database... Sure that one day you'll be running the company and will get to implement whatever features that you want.
All the best,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Ah bless, you think that it isn't a dictatorship anyway.
Thats sort of a joke but based in the reality that absolutely all owner managed businesses espechially those with the founder at the head are to some extent dictatorship's (its even given as an example of a threat to watch out for in several of the audit standards (espechially ISA240)).
So, come the glorious day I'm sure that you already have the new manifesto planned... Just hope that it's not based on the same business model as the Godfather 2 (wipe out all opposition the moment that you come to power).
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I enquired about the AIB "Level 4 Diploma in Accounting to International Standards 500/3370/0" and the answer I got was not exactly encouraging.
I was told that even if this qualification is still available there aren't many centres/learning providers that still offer this. That was hardly a compelling sales pitch for the qualification and it gave me the impression that it's being 'left behind' and/or neglected by the IAB. I may have gotten the wrong impression, but that was enough to decide to not go down that route.
I decided to go the IFA way instead and look at their "Level 4 Diploma for SME financial accountants". I submitted my ICB certificates and I was told that I would qualify to join and go for the Level 4 qualification, but my ICB qualifications would count for nothing and would not give me any exemption whatsoever! This is a little annoying since most of the syllabus of the IFA units is almost identical to the units I studied to get my ICB qualifications.
So now I'm off to try and find the recommended textbooks/ebooks to prepare for the IFA exams, a hard task given that they seem to be predominantly BPP books that are not available any more! Is anyone else studying IFA at the moment? Have you managed to get hold of any past BPP study texts? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated.
Thank you all for the valuable input I got on this thread.
Hoping to become IFA qualified soon,
Fabs
-- Edited by fabs79 on Friday 18th of October 2013 03:08:19 PM
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If you can navigate your way to student fees it mentions the E book for £25.00 (as you mention )and then mentions that new learning material for 2014 onwards will be available from 1st September. Give them a call and ask them to clarify the situation. They are very helpful, although like most organisations getting through to the right person first time can be a challenge.
Gordon
-- Edited by GordonB on Friday 18th of October 2013 06:21:58 PM
As you can see from my post earlier in the thread and James response or lack of it, ICB appear to have given up on level 4 as well. I am studying for IFA but the Exams and books are changing after the December sitting so the current BPP books will be of limited value. The tax element is an E book and covers far more than the ICB SA diploma, the other point to remember is that the exam is taken at a centre rather than at home, with no computer and know reference books just pen and paper. This means that your basic knowledge is tested to a greater extent as nothing is done for you. If you are like me and use software for everything then a simple thing like manually producing a P&L and BS with the correct layout might cause a bit of head scratching.
this is me probably making a point that i cant really justify, but i think that the IFA are an awarding body that is going places. it is a full member of IFAC and it seems that it really seems in touch with what the industry needs. ( I am looking at you Regulations 8!)
I have never had any dealings with them, so dont take this as gospel, but these are my thoughts.
Nick
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Nick
Nick Craggs FMAAT ACA AAT Distance Learning Manager
I did not see anywhere on the IFA website that things are changing after December.
It sounds like I'd better wait till the start of 2014 to join and start my studies then? Is the eBook the one you can buy from IFA for £25 (from the 'learning materials')?
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) and it is not possible for me to spend a few years training under an accountant. I was looking at bodies such as AAT, but they do require training under an accountant before you are awarded practice status.
This is a little annoying since most of the syllabus of the IFA units is almost identical to the units I studied to get my ICB qualifications.
Is anyone else studying IFA at the moment? Have you managed to get hold of any past BPP study texts? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated.
