ICB Luca Award Winners - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

ICB Luca Award Winners

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Well done Dave. Congratulations to all the boys and girls at TL. Hope that you all had a really good evening... And that non of you were breathalised this morning, lol..

Now onto the asking questions bit as the links lost me.

I don't understand the international winners bit of the announcement at all.

Is it every country where ICB has a toe hold gets a participation prize for turning up?

Don't see why the Ukraine gets two prizes for what seems to be the same award (employer of the year... Which Khazakstan also won?... Why can I not think of Khazakstan without thinking of Borat... Very funny but the guy did that country a real disservice, lol).

James, if your reading this I think that the ICB site needs more info on the international awards to put them into context.

Quite surprised that VT didn't even get nominated in the software provider of the year category. Who nominates the shortlist and who votes in this thing for the winners? Is it a members nomination / vote or members and students or is voting and nomination open to everyone?

Anyway, congrats again Dave, know that you'll be absolutely made up for the next few months,

all the best matey,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Thank You Shaun

That's very nice of you, we were all delighted as you can imagine. I really would love for you to attend one of these events one day, I am 99.9% certain you would be impressed.

I was actually turning down drinks yesterday and was on my very best behaviour, my lesson has been learnt lol, but I do still have my BKN get out of jail or should that me Gaol for free card lol.

Thanks again Shaun

Dave

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Dave,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner as I was on my travels back north yesterday and now refuse to post on here via a mobile, as it's a complete nightmare.

It was good to see yourself, Gary and the Capeling team once again. Well done on your own award and I know that your student will be on cloud nine. One thing that is now certain is that students can now access to top quality training from several sources and they are the real winners with us pushing each other along, trying to keep ahead of the game. Cheers for your congratulations on the TotY award, it was very pleasing and I know that the Prince was delighted to shake my hand biggrin . This was the first of such events that my wife had attended and she was blown over by the surroundings. Getting entry to the Royal reception was the icing on the cake. Yesterday I emailed Hayley at ICB thanking her and the entire team for their efforts and organisation but I'm glad you put this in Public as they did a fantastic job in a relatively short period of time.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Brian McVean wrote:
Hi Dave,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner as I was on my travels back north yesterday and now refuse to post on here via a mobile, as it's a complete nightmare.

It was good to see yourself, Gary and the Capeling team once again. Well done on your own award and I know that your student will be on cloud nine. One thing that is now certain is that students can now access to top quality training from several sources and they are the real winners with us pushing each other along, trying to keep ahead of the game. Cheers for your congratulations on the TotY award, it was very pleasing and I know that the Prince was delighted to shake my hand . This was the first of such events that my wife had attended and she was blown over by the surroundings. Getting entry to the Royal reception was the icing on the cake. Yesterday I emailed Hayley at ICB thanking her and the entire team for their efforts and organisation but I'm glad you put this in Public as they did a fantastic job in a relatively short period of time.

Lol Brian that did make me laugh out loud, I should imagine your wife was very proud of you. I got to meet the Prince the year Angie won the tutor award, we were talking about the importance of good customer service and how the bigger companies seem to lose that once you have signed on the dotted line, funny thing is though he was not introduced to me I introduced myself lol.

I must say I do really love these events and ICB sure do know how to throw a party. Having been a member of BKN for a while now I am a bit disappointed that with over 100 views of my post only Shaun took the time to say well done, but hey ho you live and learn, and you are of course spot on with your analogy that every year the Training Providers get better and better. I am really looking forward to seeing the new qualification Garry Carter was talking about in his speech and loved his condom joke which I might use for this weeks Friday fun.

2014 is certainly going to be manic what with all the new syllabus changes and its good to see ICB moving with the times which is one thing you can always be sure of. I hope Al is ok please give him my best wishes.

Good luck to both you and Ideal in 2014. All the best Brian and well done to you again.

Dave

ICBUK · Guru

Hello all,

Yes well done to all nominees and especially the winners!

Very good to see you guys, well done for making the trip.

Hi Shaun,

The ICB have awards in countries all around the world, each country have their own award ceremony, except UK (I will explain later).

Each winner (except UK ones) are offered the chance to have their award presented in London by ICB Global's CEO Garry Carter, and 1 winner from each country is offered it by ICB's Royal Patron HRH Prince Michael.

There is then a small international presentation ceremony for the overseas winners that want it, this year it was the day after the Luca Awards at the Carlton Club and was attended by 40 people.

So what you see at the Luca awards are the winners from other countries who have been chosen/offered to have their award presented by HRH.

Not everyone comes to London for this, obviously it is expensive, which is why normally it is the larger Companies from the closer countries that come along. Sometimes the student of the year are sponsored by their employer.

The UK is different because it hosts the awards and so does its full ceremony at the Lucas.

Ukraine didn't win twice, it was an error and confusion with Uzbekistan, who didn't come for the presentation anyway.

Rainoo · Veteran Member

Sorry Dave

Well done to all the winners

Looking forward to the joke tomorrow

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Thanks Janine, don't be sorry be jolly that's my motto.

Dave

NickCraggs · Guru

Well done everyone, and from a personal note, especially to Brian, and everyone at Training Link and UK Open College. I have worked with all three and they are all deserving winners.

I am just wondering what Sage have done since October when they couldn't get in to top three of the BKN awards, but won the ICB awards this December???

have a good weekend

Nick

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Nick,

The software provider award was done on votes, personally I don't think it is the best method, but the BKN awards are run like this.

The other awards are chosen by a panel based on a lot of information and references etc..

The photos of the award night are on Facebook here https://www.facebook.com/ICBUK

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi James,

that sounds very much as though the BKN awards are more representitive of the general market rather than the personal opinions of a few.

I assume that even where its an open vote such as for the software provider the voting is members only and from a list selected by the panel rather than being a truly independant vote for any software in the market?

Maybe in future years the ICB should open all categories to nomination and general vote like the BKN awards?

Of course, a difference would be perhaps a restriction to voting only by verifiable members and students which would make it very much awards voted for by those that the body represents so truly ICB members awards rather than risking devaluing the awards with restricted nomination and voting which may come across to some as ICB management awards.

Might make for a far wider range of potential award winners... Although a more open playing field might also upset some existing providers.... Swings and roundabouts.

ICBUK · Guru

"ICB Management Awards?" hmm Shaun sometimes you leave me scratching my head in confusion smile

It is only for ICB members and students, hence it is the ICB awards, not a general public vote.

This is only done for the software though.

It is a hard category to judge, all software providers have their pro's and con's and it would take ages (if not impossible) to come up with a winner.

For the other categories I think they should be chosen by a panel, open voting is just a race to who can email the most people to vote for them, rather than it going to the most deserved.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Here we go,, ICB having to defend themselves yet again? May I make one or two valid points regarding the BKN and ICB awards.

BKN award for example for top training provider are based on votes, which means the winner is the one who can generate the most votes and not necessarily the one with the best results for their paying students which the ICB award is based on? Are you saying the BKN award for this category is more valid? I am not taking away anything from the winner of the award just stating an actual fact. Ideal Schools are just as passionate as Training Link but the award is flawed. Are course materials looked at when these awards being dished out? Is the level and speed of support being taken into account? Are exam pass rates considered? Is there a BKN Panel who looks at these facts, the answer to that is simply NO, that is not supposition but FACT. When Steve introduced these awards I am certain he did so to celebrate achievement as said above and not to start comparisons with other organisations.

Unlike BKN ICB hold an annual Bookkeeping summit open to everyone regardless of body and I attend every year. Nearly every software provider you can think of had a stand at this years summit selling their wares, these are not the BKN awards they are the ICB awards and where voting took place the voting was done by ICB members and although my personal belief is that Sage is expensive software especially for those looking to start their own practice the plain and simple fact is Sage gained the most votes.

These awards are a celebration and not a competition, and that celebration is for a persons or companies achievements in a particular field, neither award should be belittled or questioned but celebrated for both the winners and those who are nominated.

Dave

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Friday 13th of December 2013 06:35:07 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Dave Campbell wrote:
Here we go,, ICB having to defend themselves yet again? May I make one or two valid points regarding the BKN and ICB awards.

BKN award for example for top training provider are based on votes, which means the winner is the one who can generate the most votes and not necessarily the one with the best results for their paying students which the ICB award is based on? Are you saying the BKN award for this category is more valid? I am not taking away anything from the winner of the award just stating an actual fact. Ideal Schools are just as passionate as Training Link but the award is flawed. Are course materials looked at when these awards being dished out? Is the level and speed of support being taken into account? Are exam pass rates considered? Is there a BKN Panel who looks at these facts, the answer to that is simply NO, that is not supposition but FACT. When Steve introduced these awards I am certain he did so to celebrate achievement as said above and not to start comparisons with other organisations.

Unlike BKN ICB hold an annual Bookkeeping summit open to everyone regardless of body and I attend every year. Nearly every software provider you can think of had a stand at this years summit selling their wares, these are not the BKN awards they are the ICB awards and where voting took place the voting was done by ICB members and although my personal belief is that Sage is expensive software especially for those looking to start their own practice the plain and simple fact is Sage gained the most votes.

These awards are a celebration and not a competition, and that celebration is for a persons or companies achievements in a particular field, neither award should be belittled or questioned but celebrated for both the winners and those who are nominated.

Dave

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Friday 13th of December 2013 06:35:07 PM

Dave,

You do realise that it was James that brought up the comparison don't you?

Also there's no need to defend anything as nobody was attacking anyone.... its a discussion in relation to relative merits of a closed as opposed to open system of nomination and voting.

As for the merit of awards... Your arguement simply replaces a democratic process involving many with the opinions of a few.

I many ways this is similar to the old democracy vs monarchy debate.

Not sure that your right about this being a celebration rather than a competition as celebrations don't have winners.

James,

ICB Management awards refers to a closed system of voting where the decisions as to runners and winners is taken by a few rather than an open system such as BKN which is open to anyone.

The difference between the BKN and ICB awards that I was talking about if you went down that route would be the ICB vote restricted to members and students of the ICB which is as it should be for an body specific open vote.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

It was actually Nick who bought up the comparison by posing the question " How come Sage won the ICB award when they didn't get a look in with the BKN award". James pointed out his opinion that in his opinion he didn't think this was the best way to do it but BKN has the same method.

As for being a celebration it depends on personal opinion and that is how I see it and I bet a pound to a penny so does Steve Hillman. Just being nominated means a hell of a lot to those who are in the chosen few, and for those who are not they have something to strive for and a goal to get to.

Lets celebrate these awards instead of looking for faults.

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave

I wouldn't say looking for faults but rather everything should always be about constant improvement (#1).

Can't remember where I read it but a line stuck in my head from some time back "in a world that is forever moving forwards to stand still is actually going backwards".

#1 NOT YOU MICROSOFT!!!! Mr Gates, if it ain't broke, stop trying to fix it!!!

NickCraggs · Guru

My point wasnt about the merits and demerits having a open vote or not, and i can see arguements in either favour. My point was that as both were based on a vote, and there are a large number of ICB members on here who presumably voted in both, I just thought that it was odd that in this catagory it through up very different opinions.

All the best

Nick

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Dave Campbell wrote:
Are you saying the BKN award for this category is more valid? I am not taking away anything from the winner of the award just stating an actual fact. Ideal Schools are just as passionate as Training Link but the award is flawed. Are course materials looked at when these awards being dished out? Is the level and speed of support being taken into account? Are exam pass rates considered?

Dave

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Friday 13th of December 2013 06:35:07 PM

Hi Dave,

i just wanted to pick up on the above section from your previous post. Do you think a student would vote if exam results were poor, study materials inferior or tutorial services lacking. My guess is, probably not. When BKN awards come round students are not forced or enticed into voting, they do so because they feel we merit it. I am sure that one day TL will will the BKN awards also and I can guarantee at that time you will not consider it flawed. A stamp of customer satisfaction is very gratifying. smile

Hi Nick,

thank you for your earlier post. Re ICB members using this forum, and the ICB one for that matter, I may be wrong but their does seem to be a dip in interest in forum activity.

Have a great weekend everyone.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Morning Brian

Hope you are well.

I was just making a point with regards the awards and used the Training Provider category as an example but they are all the same. Ideal deserved the BKN award and you certainly deserved the ICB Luca award. Regardless of the awarding body if the said award is based on votes and a certain person or company picks up more votes then they deserve the award in question as that is what the criteria for that award is set. You should be proud as we are that our students take the time to vote but as I said my point is to celebrate awards and not question them.

Keep up the good work and have a great Christmas and lets hope 2014 is a good year for all of us.

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

I think that the flaw in the debate here is that your a nice guy Dave and perhaps a little less cynical than the bulk of practicing bookkeepers and accountants out there.

As one of the more practical soft skills l I think good to instill in all of your students from the offset the mindset to Question everything and accept nothing at face value as in the real world.

ACCA do that quite subtly by exam questions hiding matters such as management bias, earnings management, etc. to instill in students right from the outset that matters may not be as they seem at face value.

Or conversely they may be but the key is that we always question everything.

I'm not suggesting that everyone becomes an accountant but rather I don't think that the instilling of a healthy amount of professional scepticism in everyone would hurt and would actually help people to look for the flaws in what the are being told as that as much as the knowledge base makes for better financial professionals.

lol, just thought that probably the last thing that many may want is a site full of people such as Nick, Kris, Tim and myself who don't so much just peak at whats behind the curtain as rip the curtain down to see whats hidden behind.

Hope that you have a good Christmas too matey,

All the best,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

I think this site is full of very passionate people who may I add like myself are very opinionated. The word flawed in hindsight was probably not the best one to use, but lets face facts if the BKN awards are based on votes then you are intelligent enough to know that whoever gains the most votes wins and if that is the awarding bodies criteria then so be it and the winners and those nominated should be congratulated.

Lets say for example that 3 companies regardless of it accountants, bookkeepers or training providers are up for an award based on votes and the awarding body have no specific formula for counting votes which I know the ICB have, so results are based on who gets the most votes. Lets suggest that for example there are 3 people up for the Accountancy Practise Award.

Company 1 has been around for 20 years and over those 20 years have gained 1200 happy clients
Company 2 has been around for 12 years and has 600 happy clients.
Company 3 has been around for 4 years and has 200 happy clients

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out who will gain the most votes based on the length of time someone has been trading compared to the amount of clients one has. The company that gains the most votes wins the award because of volume of clientele and not because they are better than the company who has only been around for 4 years.

My debate is based on an awarding body will set an awards criteria and that all the winners and nominee's should be celebrated but it does not mean that the winners are always the best if you get what I mean?

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I take on board what your saying but if such is a no brainer why is it that those who shall not be named are not winning any open votes?

Oh, and of the above company 1 averages 60 happy clients per year and the other two 50 per year.

Using your logic Company 1 should obviously be the winner as they are turning over more happy clients per year but of course the longer ago the course was taken the less likely the ex students are to vote.

I don't know about others but for the BKN awards I voted for a training provider that I have never used but I respect due to their posts on this site and sure others did likewise regardless as to who they may have trained with themselves.

If the intent was to show that relative size wins then public vote would be keeping even the largest training providers on their toes where with a closed vote it would be all about how the training provider is perceived by the professional body which at times may be out of step with public perception.

As mentioned previously there are arguements both ways but to my mind the only true competition is one that is either an open or full membership vote that is independantly audited.

all the best,

Shaun.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

Lol like what you did there, I was talking about Accountancy companies up for an award and you turned it into Training Provider? Regardless of this the principle is still the same. To be totally impartial as far as training provider is concerned then the Governing body will have the stats to make the correct choice as the result will be based on the principles mentioned above in my earlier post and not based on how many votes are gained. I think deep down you know I am right lol

Dave

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Brian McVean wrote:
I may be wrong but their does seem to be a dip in interest in forum activity.

Hi Brian,

Just faced with curing yet another company of Sage and as extracting Sage data into VT load files whilst not complicated is a task that I rate right up there with having teeth pulled (I am so writing some Excel Macro to automate that as soon as I get a day or so free) I thought that I would just have a glance through posts that I may have missed.

Just had a look at the ICB site and your right, it does seem a little quiet over there. Would be nice to think that its because all of the lost posters have found their way here but we're not getting that many more posts here than they are.

I don't think thast there's anything to worry about as there are a few times of the year where postings go down even though site traffic is pretty much maintained.

Post Christmas the site will get the usual flurry of people making new years resolutions to move to a new career (I really must start cut and pasting from the previous years replies rather than writing each one fresh... Strange that I can make others work faster and more efficiently and then I reinvent the wheel with every new post, lol).

January will have lots of questions on the run up to last minute self assessment completion.

Feb onwards it will be back to business as normal and then slow down again from the start of November (Which is also coincidentally the start of exam season)

Right, much as I'm avoiding it I'm on a mission to save these people from Sage (Maybe I should ditch the black suit for a spandex one complete with mask and cape).

Talk later,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for your reply, hope all went well with your conversions. Personally, I'm a Sage convert and don't feel your pain.

I'm not that concerned re forum activity, just an observation, and not just for December but past couple of months. Most threads are started by and added to by regular users.

For the powers at be, is there anything you can do re posting from mobile devices. This format doesn't like predictive text and is VERY frustrating. Be in touuch soon with Christmas greeting.