Hi all, I am currently doing level one bookkeeping and computerised accounts city and guilds on a part time course, which I enjoy very much. However I am now considering doing the next level as a distant learning course so that I can move along much faster in my studies otherwise it would be not until next summer before I could complete level two, and I really don't want to take that long especially as I am a mature student with not so much time for training on my side, any reccomendations I have been reading about icb on here is that best way to go, I would say I have no real intentions of becoming an accountant I feel as though I would be happy to stick to being a bookkeeper. I would like to ask where do you stop being a bookkeeper and it becomes an accountants job? What is expected of a bookkeeper, I have been learning about nominal accs and personal, petty cash, cash book etc. up to and including trial balance. What else would I be expected to be able to do? Thanks for any views on this.
There is a very good question buried in the back half of your post.
Where does being a bookkeeper stop and accounting begin!
That really depends on the professional body that you talk to but I think that the ACCA's definition is the best one in that a bookkeeper is all services to trial balance plus VAT and Payroll.
Everything else is accountancy.
Now thats not saying that bookkeepers can't work as accountants, its just defining to my mind where one stops and the other begins.
Now consider that if professional bodies have difficulty with that definition what hope do clients have!
Clients in the micro SME sector who would be your target market do not want bookkeepers. They want cheaper accountants.
I defy any bookkeeper here to say hand on heart that their clients in that sector have not asked them for tax advice.
I would not consider anyone able to work in that sector who does not have a basic understanding of tax and NI applicable to entities of that size and to understand how to produce a set of accounts and self assessment for a sole trader.
From April ICB will be changing to make level III the first level that people are able to get practicing certificates (don't want to start another debate about the merits of that, or what the new level III is. just stating it as a fact).
The old level III covered basic accounts for a sole trader and assuming that this version will be the same then thats a good move by the ICB that is playing to the markets expectations of what a self employed bookkeeper should be able to do.
To be looking at 18 months to complete level II is ridiculous and as you say it seems that distance learning would be a far better opton for you. If you go the ICB route then try either Training Link or Ideal Schools both of whom have been successfully running reasonably priced ICB courses for many years.
Welcome to the forum and look forwards to hearing your adventures as your progress through to owning your own practice.
Good luck in your studies,
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you for your reply Shaun, very pleased to have stumbled across this site.
I will deff look at Training link and Ideal schools, I was thinking of looking at pitmans but only because I had heard of them, keep seeing an add for Ics as well don't know if anyone has any views on these?
I possibly will have the opportunity to do some bookkeeping for someone that is a sole trader in the future as his current bookkeeper is looking to retire, that is another reason I would like to progress quicker, I am not sure if I would work for him or self employed. Do you advise being self employed the best route. If I did not have this option I would have probably gone on to study payroll and excel to make it easier to find a job in another company.
It sounds as though Icb would probably be the right direction for me to take, would I have to start at the beginning with them or would they take my city and guilds qualification into account?
Thanks all help appreciated.
-- Edited by figureit on Sunday 9th of February 2014 03:06:17 PM
As someone who took C&G lv2 I can say with certainty that the ICB will NOT take it into account!
I am currently ICB lv2 - membership level AICB, completing the two main lv3 exams currently allows you to upgrade to MICB - how that is going to shift come April I don't know, apparently we will be given time (15 months) to make up any differences as the levels are changed around but what those differences will be I don't yet know.
As an AICB I have a practice licence and run my own business as a freelance bookkeeping practitioner. I have not taken the additional exams for payroll or SA Tax and here in soggy suburbia the market for plain, old fashioned bookkeepers is quite good. I have heard that outside the M25 it can pay to have the extra exams and be able to offer a more complete package.
As to what one can and cannot do as a licence holding ICB member, there is a whole load of information on the ICB site of which this might be the most useful page www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Study--Qualifications/Qualifications--Examinations Since my membership card reads that I am a Certified Bookkeeper I am assuming the page is showing the new structure - at least in current outline.
All of which reminds me I had better go do some revision and get those lv3's!
P.S. Studying with Ideal Schools - very good and patient people!
-- Edited by Unwize Owl on Sunday 9th of February 2014 04:18:52 PM
Oh dear now I am confused I will have to think long and hard about this, I am not in a rush just yet, as I have not actually finished my level 1 C&G yet.
I would not want to have to go over all the same studies again though, that seems such a waste of time and money. The thing I like about C&G is that one half of course is manual and then you learn computerised as well and that does not seem the case with the other course providers. Can I ask why you changed to Icb was it because you wanted to be certificated? I can work for someone self employed without being certificated can't I? Although I realise this would not be good for someone wanting there own practise with several clients. All I am thinking at the moment is that I would like to learn to do bookkeeping properly and at a faster pace.
two things get your CV onto the right desk for employment opportunities in bookkeeping.
Experience or (preferably and) AAT.
Bookkeeping qualifications such as ICB and IAB are generally aimed at giving a sound base knowledge of the subject matter and a route into self employment but they don't score any brownie points with accountants in practice.
Going over the same subject matter again is not a bad thing. Why not simply join a professional body, take the exams that you already know how to do and then start your paid studies at the level that you don't.
Exemptions with ICB (like ACCA) work in the form of guaranteed passes in that you still pay for each exam that you will get exemption from but you don't have to go along and sit it.
My attitude is that if I've paid for something then someone somewhere is going to have to mark it otherwise the professional bodies are just getting free money for nothing (and where's the fun in skipping exams).
On the other bit of your post. ICB have the same settup where you have the Level II & III manual and the level II & III computerised. You need to pass both parts of the level to pass that level.
HTH,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Oh so I wouldn't have to do the whole course again,or pay for say level 1 that will probably be level 2 when I would start it as it will have changed by then, I would just be able to do the exam on the first level is that right? And then pay for next levels and start my studies from there is that correct, if so that sounds better and glad that the courses do include computerised are they separate though or included in the price of each level?
Yes, it would just be a matter of sitting th exam to redo the bit that you already know then go forwards to study the bits that you don't.
The computerised exams are seperate modules but you will find that some training companies combine the two courses into one level so a 50/50 split like you describe C&G.
Worth noting is that I doubt that the ICB syllabus is exactly the same as the C&G one so its always worth doing a mock or two before attempting the actual exam.
HTH,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Just thought I should add I am doing this as it is something that has always interested me, I am not doing it hoping to earn a large salary, just want to do something I will enjoy and can do part time. I would be quite happy to keep good bookkeeping records and stop at the trial balance and then hand over to an accountant to do there magic, so I think doing AAT would be to advanced for me to think of at this stage who knows when I have some experience further down the line maybe I would want to go deeper. I will see what happens when I finish the next part of my course as this does cover everything as did the first half, up to the trial balance including vat, bank reconciliation etc
Many thanks for all you'r help, I will be looking on here while I train and thinking over my options Great site.
-- Edited by figureit on Sunday 9th of February 2014 07:24:41 PM
The ICB do not require that anyone take a formal training course though I would recommend considering a distance course as this will make sure you have covered all the possible topics for the exam.
I signed up for a 'Career Path' package which gave a good price break and included software suitable for the exams so I did go over Lv1 again - but I completed it in a week and passed the exam with 100% - Just think of it as a refresher course, dotting i's and crossing t's. I think you will be surprised at just what the C&G course does not cover - I know I was!
If you are happy with unstructured learning, I recommend you get a copy of Business Accounts by David Cox, most of Lv1 and 2 are in there, and use that with a copy of the relevant syllabus. You might also look at the Kaplan books, they have a series specifically for the ICB exams. I don't know if you need to become a student member of the ICB to use the shop, but there are both paper and on-line mocks for the exams available at fairly low prices.
Lv3 in my opinion does require a more guided approach.
It is perhaps worthy of note that ICB Lv3 and AAT Lv3 are broadly similar. The ICB will consider issuing a licence to practice based on exams only whereas the AAT have a requirement for experience before they will issue.
You can, as you noted, become a bookkeeper without these exams but the profession as a whole is regulated - you do have to be registered, either with a governing body such as the ICB or with the government.
Can I ask why you changed to Icb was it because you wanted to be certificated?
I changed because it was the only way of progressing in a reasonable time frame. The results of the lv2 C&G exam came out 1 week after the start of the lv3 course - they were not prepared to take anyone who couldn't prove a pass, despite the tutor going in to bat for me (and at 65% for a distinction its a simple exam!) and that meant a year of delay until the next course. Unacceptable to me.
I chose ICB because I wanted to be a self employed bookkeeper, working form home (I have an autistic daughter who occasionally needs me here at short notice - difficult if you are in a regular 9-5 job) and every other route to market required years of 'relevant' experience, though what was classed as relevant varied by who you spoke to! Since I first learnt to do double entry at the tender age of 10 and have been keeping books one way and another (club accounts, brownie accounts, helping out with Mum's Florum accounts and Dad's multitude of Masonic accounts) practically ever since (35 years!) I felt I had the experience - none of the other bodies were prepared to accept this however.
If this comes across as something of a whinge at the other professional bodies that that is accurate. A little bit of flexibility and less rude and dogmatic replies to a prospective member would improve them immensely! A very personal view, and I hope that others have not had the same issues I did.
Thank you Unwise owl, for taking the time to give me so much information, you sound as though you are doing very well and it was definitely the right way to go for you.
I agree that it would probably be a good idea to sit through level one again, should stick in my head that way lol and like you said would probably not take to long any way. I suppose my dream was to be working from home one day doing a few people's books but I wasn't really expecting to jump straight into that sort of position so my dilemma was what do I need to learn to find a little job bookkeeping. I have been working for several years in a job that I now find extremely monotonous and there does not seem any way of progressing with this company. So I am looking to do something that I have always had an interest in and I can do for the rest of my working years, when looking at vacancy's it seems a lot of company's want you to do everything bookkeeping admin payroll etc, so thought I would need to do some extra courses to get myself up to speed. And then maybe one day like I said I would probably go self employed .
Like you I don't want to have to wait another year to do the next level, that is just far too slow so I will definitely be looking at doing another level soon, but who with do I do ICB or don't I, is it only suitable if I want to be self employed or will I still learn all I need to know?
Have you been bookkeeping just up to trial balance, or do you do more? Is that all a bookkeeper would do if they were working for a company and not self employed with a practise certificate. I am sure I would carry on and do more levels even if it was just out of interest.
Like I said I may be able to do some bookkeeping for someone in a while as there bookkeeper is looking to retire I don't know how much work would be involved yet if I would be better of self employed or working for him and obviously I need to learn more yet, and quick lol. Would you say you learned more with the ICB than C&G course.
Thanks for your time much appreciated, good luck with those lvl 3's sure you will fly through!
Thought I would add, just been looking on ICB site and looked at level 1 and level 2, and think I probably will give them a go, looked good quite a bit of it has been covered in my C&G level 1 but was some different bits too that I have not learned yet, so whether I end up going self employed or not in the future looks like they would be a big help to me. Then if I decide I want to go further and do level 3 at a later date or am happy with what I know with level 2 time will tell. :)
Do I only do work that complies with my licence? If it is a client contract and the work is bookkeeping related - Yes, and I can be quite a martinet! I will not breech the terms of my licence. Oh, and Shaun - Yes, even though I tell them all I don't touch SA tax, they still ask and expect me to know!
That said - I am also employed (flexible hours) by an accountant with all work covered by her licence and checked by her (and the most amazingly complicated contract to make it clear that only her licence is involved!) so there I do what ever she wants done which can include payroll and basic management stuff that I wouldn't do on my own as yet. An absolutely fantastic post for me - I'm learning loads
My degree is in statistics, so I will also take on work that is not strictly bookkeeping but more in the way of data analysis - some might call what I do forecasting but it isn't quite that - more like trend determination.
I can sympathise with a job that is dull and going nowhere. The beauty of being self-employed is that while the tasks are similar each job is different so constant variety. The ICB exams will teach you all you need to know in terms of the skills but as Shaun points out on a regular basis only experience can teach you some things - like how to get a client to part with the paperwork needed (I have one who can't tell the difference between a delivery note and an invoice - agghh!!), sizing prospective clients up as good or poor on the reliability and ability to pay front. Being able to cope when the unusual turns up (frequent) and the exceptional (still common). Learning people skills, how to network, where to find clients and how to close a deal.
There is a heck of a lot more to being a freelance bookkeeper than a flair for numbers so only go that route if you are sure it is what you want and you are prepared to live with whatever it throws at you.
If it isn't for you don't think of that as a fault or anything, just accept that each of us is different and you are better off working for someone rather than for yourself. In that case I would recommend the more commercial AAT route and look for a local agency that can help you find a part-time employed post.
Oh I didn't mean that you would breech your licence Unwise Owl, I just didn't know what you were allowed to do yet lol. I thought you were allowed to do more if you worked for someone else and I understand how it works now from your reply, thankyou.
I worked as a self employed sales agent years ago, so its not the being self employed bit that worries me also hubby is also self employed.
I have always worked with the public and customers so no probs there either, I also work with a lot of small businesses that all have bookkeepers and or accountants.
I am hoping that providing I can learn all I need to know, that I can gradually take over from this bookkeeper that is retiering and that he will be kind enough to check over what I do, I would not take on anything I was not sure of, no way would I risk messing up someones accounts, so I would only work for this one person at first anyway, and possibly some admin work for him too.
I think of aat as more accounting than bookkeeping?
So if I am not licenced which I would not be for some time, what exactly would I be allowed to do? If not working where there is another accountant?
Bookkeepers come in different flavours and varieties, there are the untrained hacks who give us all a bad name at the bottom of the pile and a handful of walking encyclopaedias at the top end who have every exam and every extra qualification and tons of experience and are nice to boot! But for the majority of us poor mortals the 'ranking' goes a bit like this
Unqualified trainees. Can do some basic things but must have all work overseen by a qualified person. A sort of glorified data entry clerk. Might be called a ledger clerk. Part qualified trainee. Knows what a TB is and what it is for, understands double entry and is getting the hang of basic bookkeeping practices. Still needs to be fully overseen. Still makes mistakes! Professional Bookkeeper. Getting there - understands the basics and can work to TB fairly reliably, probably ok with basic VAT. Might still need checking. Can register with gov as freelance for MLR but most likely employed.
Certified Bookkeeper (protected profession). Reliable to TB, competent at VAT. Will be a member of a professional body such as AAT, ICB, IAB. Regulated for MLR, may be employed or self employed.
From here there is no change in designation but extra exams add specialities and further fundamentals. Career progression would be through higher grades of membership with whoever. The usual specialities are SA Tax, Payroll and maybe Legal Certified (can work for a solicitor) further membership levels may allow further work to be done such as partnership accounts, draft final and possibly final accounts for Limited companies. Corporation Tax, further SA specialisation, Management accounts....
So as a profession it can go quite a long way and at the upper levels there is very little difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant except which 'club' they joined! For the majority being a Certified Bookkeeper is what it is all about, they get there, add payroll and tax and that's it. For a few of us being certified is just a stepping stone to more exams. It might take me a few years but I'll get to FICB one day!
So if your current bookkeeper is willing to take you on and mentor you I'd go for it but reckon to get the exams and be a member of a professional body to get the Certified Bookkeeper as well. After all having a nice piece of paper to wave at someone to show your skills can't hurt :)
As to how quickly or not for you to get licensed - I've known people pass the exams (5 to Lv3 for ICB) starting from scratch in just 4 months. Others take years. I can't say how long it will take you, it depends on you and your situation. If you want to go the guided learning route the distance learning providers offer a range of products from single exam packages to full career paths at cost varying from a few hundred to £1.5k or higher. The exams themselves cost between £32 and £85 each (lower levels tend to be cheaper) But as mentioned before you can self study if you have the mind set for that and that is obviously cheaper than using a learning provider.
I don't know if I am answering your question or just rattling on endlessly! (Shaun - Shush! )
I don't know if I am answering your question or just rattling on endlessly!
Well.... (Shaun - Shush! )... sulk...
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Yes lots of answers thank you Unwise Owl, I am sure Shaun wont sulk for too long ; ))
Don't worry I would not dream of not doing the exams and yes I will register with Icb and yes I will even use a training provider, I do like to do things properly lol!!
I will have more time to study come aprill so that's when I shall begin, bearing in mind I am still doing C&G at the moment too.
I will talk to my present tutor see if she has any advice for me too I think she is AAT lvl 4 or there abouts. But as long as I can learn all I need to know about bookkeeping I think Icb sounds right for me.
I will have to see what the new syllabus will be in Aprill as it will have changed, but hopefully will be ok for me even if I have to leave level 3 until I have more experience etc in the future, and I just work to trial balance.
My husband does not use a bookkeeper just lists all expenses costs etc etc and hands to his chartered accountant, you never know maybe I can get him to check my work haha! Its the person who I will be doing some work for in a while, I hope I can work with his bookkeeper and gradually take over from him, as he is quite friendly with him and also knows my husband. Any way we will see when the time comes not doing anything just yet apart form still doing my C&G.
Most of the small firms I know have a bookkeeper and an accountant too, so does that mean that there bookkeepers probably only go to Trial balance any way??
-- Edited by figureit on Wednesday 12th of February 2014 10:36:02 AM
Yes, probably - bookkeeping expanding its horizons towards the accountant realms is a comparatively new thing (last 5 to 10 years mainly), so if these firms have been set up a while they will be used to doing things in a certain way and may not wish to change a situation which works well for them. Equally a bookkeeper with an excellent reputation may choose not to expand what they do but prefer to remain in their comfort zone and be seen as an 'expert' in their specialism.
Reason for edit: correction of word order - dyslexia hit again!
-- Edited by Unwize Owl on Wednesday 12th of February 2014 11:34:40 AM
tell anyone else off for rattling on! There was me thinking "now there's a girl after my own heart".
Don't you think it strange how we dyslexics are the one's that write the most!
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
They get the answers that they want (or don't want) plus a selection of other answers even to questions that they had never thought to ask thrown in at absutely no extra cost.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I will have to think long and hard about this, I am not in a rush just yet, as I have not actually finished my level 1 C&G yet.
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