I was at the ICB office today and was called into a meeting with a software provider that had an on-line course that demonstrates accounting software.
You move through this course viewing the slides, and an American voice reads out the words on the screen. There are some interactive sections like click the add client button, and if you click in the wrong place it highlights the correct button.
At the end of this course there is a test, 30 questions if I remember correctly, most multi choice with I think 2 or 3 typed answers.
You can take this test as often as you like until you pass.
So where is the shock you ask? Well when you do pass this test (remember you can take it as often as you like) you are granted a qualification from IAB, offered membership and allowed into practice!! There is no examination!
Now I had heard about this through the grapevine, but to be honest didn't believe it.
Is this is how IAB justifies referring to itself as "one of the most prestigious not-for-profit organisations for professional bookkeepers in the world" ?
Now I guess not all IAB qualifications are like this, so this is not meant to dig at IAB members at all. But, how does the client know the difference?
Ok rant over, I await the backlash from pro IAB forum users
Hah, just wanted stress you out with an "Oh no, not him replying again... Whats he saying this time!". lol.
Not here to give you grief... Honest.
Your right James, that doesn't sound right at all but it does sound as though you knew what to expect before you invited them along to give a demonstration.
Maybe you should speak with the powers that be at the IAB to find out whats occurin (#1) as that doesn't sound right if the course is as basic as you make it sound.
On the users of IAB services not knowing the difference can you see now what I was saying to you about the ICB last time that we spoke in that the average joe bloggs off the street has no idea of the difference between an ICB person at level II and one at level III. Its just an ICB person with a practice certificate.
Thats not saying that the IAB is right if this is as you say, just saying that how you are looking at the public being confused by various levels of IAB practice certificate could also be said to be true of the ICB.
Wish that the IAB were on here to reply to these things but sure that Frauke will be along imminently to correct any misconceptions on their behalf.
kind regards,
Shaun.
#1 you can take the boy out of Wales but you can't take Wales out of the boy, lol.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Hmm I find this strange.
When I joined IAB they asked for AAT certificates, a CV and 2 proffesional references to sign off my work experience in accounting.
I was never offered this test?!? Maybe its a recent thing? It would be so frustrating if members could join that easy when there's people who've worked hard to get experience and qualifications.
I just read the IAB bye laws, specifically schedule 2 and it sounds as though everything that you went through is still there.
This line stands out :
(iv) Upon an initial application provide names and addresses of referees who are professionally qualified to give a personal and business reference to the effect that the member is a fit and proper person to engage in public practice.
Rereading James' post he hasn't actually spoken with the IAB or attempted to follow through the claims of the software provider so my assumption is that this is just a software company making exagerated claims (Now who ever heard of software companies doing that, lol).
I was hoping the Frauke might swoop in from stage left armed with some facts. Never mind, must be a bit busy so we'll just have to go with the bits that we know from the IAB site and prior experience.
James, if you want to tell us who the software provider is we'll have a bash at checking out their claims. Or, if you don't want to mention them just call the IAB who I'm sure would be happy to talk this through as I'm equally sure that this is either a simple misunderstanding or an exagerated claim by a software company.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Actually it was a company who wanted to become an ICB accredited training provider, using their software to help their application.
I have found out there is more than one college/company doing this, not all have interactive courses some are pdf or e-books.
It has been verified, on IAB's website they mention the certificate is 1 of 12 certificates that can get you membership (you only need 1 not all 12) see below.
Yes ICB have 2 levels of membership, but both are obtained by either centre exam (amongst other tests) or years experience with 2 chartered accountant references and an entrance exam. The two levels are described on ICB's website and every individual member's directory listing actually lists the services ICB cover each member based on Membership/Qualifications. Everyone at each level has achieved the same level (well as best ICB can test I guess)
My point about IAB was that there are 12 qualifications you can pick from that get you membership. Now I don't know a lot about IAB but I assume they are not all just on-line tests from your college.
So that means you could have two members of IAB, one of which has done a centre exam, the other no real examination at all, both getting the same level of membership.
Actually looking at their membership page it is quite confusing, there are many different ways of getting the same membership, awards/certificates, payroll/bookkeeping, even just costing and pricing:
" if you hold as minimum - one of the following IAB qualifications, or equivalent from other awarding bodies: L2 Certificate in Bookkeeping QCF L2 Award in Manual Bookkeeping QCF L2 Certificate in Applied Bookkeeping QCF L2 Award in Computerised Bookkeeping QCF L2 Certificate in Payroll QCF L2 Award in Practical Payroll QCF L2 Award in Computerised Payroll QCF L2 Award in Applied Payroll QCF L3 Certificate in Payroll QCF L3 Award in Computerised Payroll QCF L2 Certificate in Computerised Accounting for Business QCF L3 Award in Costing and Pricing QCF"
I think that the confusion may be over the difference betwen being allowed in and being allowed to practice as whilst I see what you mean about being allowed into the club with various qualifications looking at the IAB byelaws it would seem that to get to a practice certificate seems more stringent and follows the ICB thinking in relation to appropriate references.
I do agree that the membership page seems confusing but feel that you would come away from the byelaws more confident that people are not able to go from a single entry level qualification to practicing under the IAB banner. (See especially schedule 2 of the byelaws).
I don't pretend to know a lot about the IAB. I can see your concerns but the reassurance that schedule 2 still stands between people joining the organisation and practicing under it does give me confidence that the situation is not as bad as it may have seemed when the software company was attempting to flog their wares to you.
The part though that confuses me is that the web page reads as though you get to pick a qualification, any qualification to reach the same level membership.
If that had just been the either manual or computerised rather than both that would have just been comparable to the old pre 2011 (might be pre 2010... I'm getting old, I forget these things, lol) ICB approach for attaining level II.... Then again, you always did Manual at level I.
But, that one could take Payroll and such would be considered the same as bookkeeping... We need input from an IAB person on that as it doesn't sound right at all. Fingers crossed someone will be along imminently to put us back on the straight and narrow. i.e. would someone with a Payroll qualification but not bookkeeping be somehow seperately identifiable?
Looking forwards to learning more about this and hope that someone from IAB reads this and sorts out their membership page as your right, it is confusing and doesn't give enough relevant information.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I've just come out of a meeting and about to pop into another, but if you check IAB's website you can practice after joining with this qualification. The one I am referring to is the Level 2 Certificate in Computerised Accounting for Business.
I'm not sure how they can contradict their by laws, I haven't read them, but this news first came from an article on Accounting Web in 2010, then people claiming they had been offered this from IAB and wanted the same from ICB. Again I generally ignored them (when reported to me by ICB UK) thinking it was people trying to haggle their way into ICB. But then the colleges started saying it...
It is not just 1 college, there are quite a few of them.
Perhaps someone from IAB could comment, as hopefully this is all just confusion (from both people claiming IAB membership has been achieved this way, and colleges offering the courses) and over complicated website information.
A real shame if this is true, especially unfair to all those who have put in tremendous work to get properly qualified, regardless of qualification. The introduction of MLR by HMRC should surely have prevented this from happening?
I am getting more people confirming this is true, still waiting for IAB.
A similar idea (maybe the same thing) was put to the ICB in 2010 - tie in with a software provider, do an online course without examination, offer qualification/membership to the masses.
Fortunately (in my opinion) in 2009 ICB members unanimously voted to increase the requirements to practice, requiring at least 1 centre examination, and stopping the accounting software only path.
As Shaun says ICB always required a manual paper, but it was not in a centre (was quite a thorough one though, roughly AAT Level 2).
So ICB made sure its members were more qualified to practice, and have just raised the bar again with their new syllabus.
don't like to contradict (yep, I really just said that, lol) but are you sure about the unamimous vote as I vaguelly recollect that there was a bit of a furore on here about it as prior to the change the qualification had been more friendly to those with things like parental commitments and disabilities.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the move but I think that it was more imposed than called for by those below full membership level (i.e. AICB's) and of course if you have full membership (FICB) then there was nothing to lose by voting that things should be more stringent for those who come after you have gained your qualification.
As I say though any qualification that is too easy to achieve loses value so your move was a sound one which very much (to my mind) changed the direction of the ICB.
I think that I'm going to have to write to the IAB to get some comment on this as there's no response coming here and I'm left confused between their website and their bylaws. The bylaws are obviously correct as those are the core rules and values that they exist by but you are suggesting that such are not being imposed in all instances which if true is something that they would need to address.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Unanimous for those that voted :) and at the end of 2009 confirmed by the students/members that attended the conference.
After the vote there were some people annoyed as they wanted to just sort paper work or input data for £8 per hour. Which is fine, but we have to separate those from the others who want to offer more (professionals). No prizes for guessing where they went, but the vast majority of people want membership that means something.
ICB's assessments are very flexible to support those with families and disabilities, the centre exams are held every day and you pick the time and place from over 2,500 centres around the world, even home invigilations are available for disabled students. Obviously not quite as flexible as an online exam but that is the balance between standards and ease. I think ICB are in the lead in terms of that.
ICB is geared towards those who run their own practice, and therefore you will find most of their members do exactly that, and so the vote is no surprise.
There were some moans on here but I think were from confusion. I will admit ICB's information in those days was a little blurred/delayed which didn't help.
Actually one forum user sticks in my mind, posting on here complaining about the change. I replied to her posts, even emailed and tried calling her to explain she had misunderstood and what she was saying was incorrect. She never responded to me. Can't remember her name though otherwise I could check if she is still with ICB, she no longer uses this forum.
To be honest I never even thought about the by-laws, not sure how much influence they have.
How very ,very unprofessional of one association to be criticising another! and in public. People who live in glass houses should not through stones James!
The ICB has plenty of faults at the moment especially with recent announcements, so I would get your house in order before you have a go at others.
Totally unacceptable behaviour and this should be address internally at ICB, how can you call the ICB professional when this is the tactics you lower to?
Well said Arch Stanton, I am currently studying level 2 IAB and was recommended to study IAB by an AAT level 4 tutor over studying with ICB, so each to there own I think!!
I received an email this morning offering me the IAB/SAGE course that James spoke of in the above posts and it's not quite the learn Sage and get a practice licence that James was led to believe in his meeting.
Actually, of a 13 point course the Sage bit only accounts for 3 points and it's nice to see ethics being one of the other available points.
I won't advertise the seller of the course as that would be unfair but for anyone interested in getting AIAB and Sage it should not take too long to find it (and your target cost is £320 or less).
The actual course content is :
Course syllabus
Principles of recording and processing financial transactions (2 credits)
Professional Values and basic business legislation (1 credit)
Banking Procedures (1 credit)
Basic principles of costing (4 credits)
Principles of V.A.T (2 credits)
Computerised accounting software (3 credits)
Whats included in the course
Access to support from experts 24 hours a day
Access to your own online community - engage with fellow students through forums, messaging and polls
Sage and IAB Approved course materials online
360 day sage 50 accounts professional software licence
Practical Tests and practical exercises
Exam Fees
One Year's IAB membership
Optional Nus Card
Sage Training course for beginners (if required)
As I say, I am not advertising who the seller is, you should be able to find that yourself.
Also I have not done the course so cannot comment on the quality of the training materials or support.
Before making any decisions also compare to available ICB courses that could get you to the equivalent AICB level.
At £320 including membership and exam fee's I am actually genuinely wondering how training companies are making any money when they are forced to undercut each other to win the business.
Are IAB waving their charges to training companies? offering cut price exams to some training bodies? Is that why HLC jumped ship?
What the above pricing is telling me is that we are living in interesting times which will result in the bookkeeping qualifications ceasing to be a one horse race.
Talk later,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
