New client query - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

New client query

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

If there's payroll involved you'll need those records as well.

Will you be doing the books monthly? They definitely need more up to date info on whats outstanding and who by

PS Although it was really windy here last night, there was no power cut. You don't appear to have been as fortunate, but it's good to see you smiling about it

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Jo,

hope that you're well... Where have the cakes gone!

Not sure that you will be able to get all of the things on your wish list but certainly try for them.

You state that the accountant does the bookkeeping and you may find that the accountant is reluctant to share information and both legally and professionally there is little that you have a right to beyong the last set of accounts and the trial balance upon which such is based so my initial list is :

- a full trial balance on which the last set of accounts was built
- a copy of the last full set of accounts (client should have this)
- The fixed asset register

Nice to haves (which the accountant may not be too happy at sharing) are
- Copy of the last CT600
- Copy of the clients last self assessment

Both of which the client may have copies of.

plus all of the client documentation (invoices, receipts, bank statements, etc.) currently held by the accountant. (which they may be holding to randsom (a lien) until any outstanding payments are made)

Nominal activity would only be a Sage thing. Is the client currently being processed in Sage by the accountant? (Its a fair bet but cannot be guaranteed).

I'm going to take the VAT issue seperately.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

On the VAT question I know that you already know this Jo but wanted to seperate it out for others reading this who may believe that businesses have some flexibility when clients won't pay where the reality is that it doesn't really matter that the clients client do not like to pay it... Neither they nor your client have a choice in the matter.

If the clients client has not paid the VAT then as you appreciate that is a percentage of their invoice that remains unpaid and what has been paid is deemed to contain VAT (so a credit control rather than VAT issue).

Under the normal accruals basis the client will owe the VAT in the quarter that the client is invoiced regardless as to whether the clients client pays them. (bit different of course on a cash accounting basis).

When the clients client makes payment if it is short that is the client, not HMRC's problem as the amount received is deemed to include the VAT due.

And the moral of this tale.... there may be a seperate opportunity for offering a credit control service for the client rather than them allowing to think that such will be bundled in with other services. Coming from yourself the clients clients may better see why this is not something that is an optional charge for them although such revelation may also see them going to other (cheaper) suppliers who do not charge VAT.

Shaun.

Peasie · Expert

Out of curiosity - is the client in the construction industry doing work for domestic clients?
For example, builder, joiner, plumber, electrician?

There seems to be a strange reluctance by customers to pay VAT in these fields.

Yet would they order a pint in a pub and say "I don't want to pay the VAT, so here's £1.00 ."
(I'm assuming a pint of lager costs around £1.20 including VAT - I stopped going to pubs a few years back).

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
If there's payroll involved you'll need those records as well.
Will you be doing the books monthly? They definitely need more up to date info on whats outstanding and who by

PS Although it was really windy here last night, there was no power cut. You don't appear to have been as fortunate, but it's good to see you smiling about it

hi John

im not doing their payroll, they want their new accountant to do that. Yes will be doing monthly, I'm a bit worried that I'm not going to get what I need, just a feeling!

Ha, glad you like the Cheshire cat. (I can't stand cats!). Hope the roof of your house it's ok, was a bit scary last night

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Hi Jo,

hope that you're well... Where have the cakes gone!

Not sure that you will be able to get all of the things on your wish list but certainly try for them.

You state that the accountant does the bookkeeping and you may find that the accountant is reluctant to share information and both legally and professionally there is little that you have a right to beyong the last set of accounts and the trial balance upon which such is based so my initial list is :

- a full trial balance on which the last set of accounts was built
- a copy of the last full set of accounts (client should have this)
- The fixed asset register

Nice to haves (which the accountant may not be too happy at sharing) are
- Copy of the last CT600
- Copy of the clients last self assessment

Both of which the client may have copies of.

plus all of the client documentation (invoices, receipts, bank statements, etc.) currently held by the accountant. (which they may be holding to randsom (a lien) until any outstanding payments are made)

Nominal activity would only be a Sage thing. Is the client currently being processed in Sage by the accountant? (Its a fair bet but cannot be guaranteed).

I'm going to take the VAT issue seperately.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Hello Shaun

long time no speak, hope you're ok. The cakes are in the post, enjoy. Sorry for the bites out of one or two, got a bit busy and was a wee bit peckish. Don't forget to send the box back so I can make some more.

That's all as I thought biggrin Lol.

Thanks for for the list. I told my prospective client that it's a bit easier if he doesn't fall out with the Accountant but that he still might not get much, if anything. I'm a bit worried about taking this one on, because ive not much time and I don't need any potential hassle trying to get all this stuff sorted. But I was recommended to them and actually introduced by my client on Monday as they share the same office block, so I want to see what he can get and at least show willing.

I'm note sure what software the accountant uses as the client doesn't seem to get anything from him, but to be honest I thought all software would produce a nom activity list. That's one great thing about sage then...is there an equivalent in other software do you know?

Im im supposed to be seeing them for a more in depth discussion this week so watch this space.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
On the VAT question I know that you already know this Jo but wanted to seperate it out for others reading this who may believe that businesses have some flexibility when clients won't pay where the reality is that it doesn't really matter that the clients client do not like to pay it... Neither they nor your client have a choice in the matter.

If the clients client has not paid the VAT then as you appreciate that is a percentage of their invoice that remains unpaid and what has been paid is deemed to contain VAT (so a credit control rather than VAT issue).

Under the normal accruals basis the client will owe the VAT in the quarter that the client is invoiced regardless as to whether the clients client pays them. (bit different of course on a cash accounting basis).

When the clients client makes payment if it is short that is the client, not HMRC's problem as the amount received is deemed to include the VAT due.

And the moral of this tale.... there may be a seperate opportunity for offering a credit control service for the client rather than them allowing to think that such will be bundled in with other services. Coming from yourself the clients clients may better see why this is not something that is an optional charge for them although such revelation may also see them going to other (cheaper) suppliers who do not charge VAT.

Shaun.

I actually told him that they cannot refuse to pay the VAT and what they are doing is effectively knocking him down on pricing and that it is a commercial decision if he accepts it or not, but that it needs to be tackled head on otherwise he just ends up with a mess on his books, with all the o/s invoices. Although if he reduces his prices to allow for what they will pay they will probably still refuse to pay the vat and on and on that vicious circle goes until they are doing freebies!! I did ask him who does his credit control and suggested he get someone to tackle that on an ongoing and regular basis. I've said that something I could do (although capacity is an issue!). Reckon theres a chunk of unpaid money out there but no-one has a handle on it, but I could be wrong!!

he is on standard VAT but didn't understand that an invoice is included based on the date of the invoice, so I'm also worried that the wrong info has gone to the Accountant to calculate the VAT. He also mentioned VAT on leased cars, I've ignored that comment ftb. I've actually suggested he consider VAT cash accounting given the length of credit given.

thanks for you help

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Peasie wrote:
Out of curiosity - is the client in the construction industry doing work for domestic clients?
For example, builder, joiner, plumber, electrician?

There seems to be a strange reluctance by customers to pay VAT in these fields.

Yet would they order a pint in a pub and say "I don't want to pay the VAT, so here's £1.00 ."
(I'm assuming a pint of lager costs around £1.20 including VAT - I stopped going to pubs a few years back).

Hi

no it's not construction, but another industry where they seem to just not want to pay vat and throw their toys out of the pram when it's added......sort of connected to accident claims industry

a pint costing £1.20 haha, it's has been a while for you!!! I don't drink pints, being far too much of a lady, but I reckon you could easily treble that and add some! Although still cheaper than my espresso martinis!

ps al sorry for any typos, can hardly see my screen, eyes hurting!!

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:

I'm note sure what software the accountant uses as the client doesn't seem to get anything from him, but to be honest I thought all software would produce a nom activity list. That's one great thing about sage then...is there an equivalent in other software do you know?
Im im supposed to be seeing them for a more in depth discussion this week so watch this space.

Would the trial balance be sufficient? I'm assuming that all activity on the nominal ledger would show up on it.

Not much storm damage here, thank goodness, but I remember the great storm of October 1987, when I lived down south. Now that was windy!

ooops, I didn't realise it was a cat, I just thought it was a caricature. I'm feline a bit stupid now

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Cheshire wrote:

ooops, I didn't realise it was a cat, I just thought it was a caricature. I'm feline a bit stupid now

Hi John

terrible, but also funny!

Reckon all I might get is the TB, will have to see. It's just when a potential client says lots of his debtors haven't paid the full amount and he has No scoobie how much that it, then it's a it of an admin nightmare potentially.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
Hello Shaun
long time no speak, hope you're ok. The cakes are in the post, enjoy. Sorry for the bites out of one or two, got a bit busy and was a wee bit peckish. Don't forget to send the box back so I can make some more.
That's all as I thought Lol.
Thanks for for the list. I told my prospective client that it's a bit easier if he doesn't fall out with the Accountant but that he still might not get much, if anything. I'm a bit worried about taking this one on, because ive not much time and I don't need any potential hassle trying to get all this stuff sorted. But I was recommended to them and actually introduced by my client on Monday as they share the same office block, so I want to see what he can get and at least show willing.
I'm note sure what software the accountant uses as the client doesn't seem to get anything from him, but to be honest I thought all software would produce a nom activity list. That's one great thing about sage then...is there an equivalent in other software do you know?
Im im supposed to be seeing them for a more in depth discussion this week so watch this space.

Sorry Jo, been really busy with a backlog of documents that I needed to get turned around so not be around so much. Pretty sure that I'm on top of it now though so I'm all yours.

Does the incumbant even know that they are potentially on their way out yet?

Does the client realise that they need to give their accountant permission to talk to you and that they will be charged for the accountants time talking to you?

A good approach may be if the client goes along to the accountant and you are with them in order to ask the questions that you need to and receieve all explanations that you require. You might even be able to illicit a backup as your start point if the client offers to pay for it but its worth noting that even with the offer of additional money there is no legal or ethic reason for the accountant to furnish you or the client with such if they do not wish to.

All software will have something similar to a nominal list which is really little more than a list of financial statement items but nominal codes are something peculiar to Sage. With other software you will be able to relate the trial balance entries to the financial statements and via that understand the nominal codes that entries need to be written to. Its more work but not insurmountable.

One override here is that if you really do not feel that you have the time and you don't need the money then despite it coming from a recommendation it might be better to let it pass.

I can see why you are apprehensive over the information that you will be able to get but provided that you have access to all client documentation (including the last three months of the period for which accounts have already been produced), the trial balance and the accounts relating to such there should be enough to rebuild position in order to move forwards.

The other question to ask here is what service do you believe that you will be providing compared to what service the client believes that you will be providing for them.

I am reading this that they are looking for you to totally replace their accountant possibly without realising what the accountant does and for you to take over everything.

Might be worth confirming the scenario exactly without any preconceived assumptions over client expectations.

Hope that your having a good Sunday afternoon Jo,

Talk soon,

Shaun.

p.s. I'm beginning to think that you're not being completely honest about this cake being in the post... You ate it didn't you...

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Sorry Jo, been really busy with a backlog of documents that I needed to get turned around so not be around so much. Pretty sure that I'm on top of it now though so I'm all yours. No worries, I know my place, lol. I'm sure the other documents were way more interesting!
Does the incumbant even know that they are potentially on their way out yet? no they have no clue, I've suggested that keep it that way for now. I've suggested they say they are going to take an in house bookkeeper on board given they are expanding and have no time to sort credit control so they would like some help to set things up
Does the client realise that they need to give their accountant permission to talk to you and that they will be charged for the accountants time talking to you? I've not mentioned the cost, note to self
A good approach may be if the client goes along to the accountant and you are with them in order to ask the questions that you need to and receieve all explanations that you require. You might even be able to illicit a backup as your start point if the client offers to pay for it but its worth noting that even with the offer of additional money there is no legal or ethic reason for the accountant to furnish you or the client with such if they do not wish to. I've pre-warned them that the Accountant doesn't have to provide anything ethically or legally other than hand over their paperwork and a TB, made that very clear that without getting that I can't help them
All software will have something similar to a nominal list which is really little more than a list of financial statement items but nominal codes are something peculiar to Sage. With other software you will be able to relate the trial balance entries to the financial statements and via that understand the nominal codes that entries need to be written to. Its more work but not insurmountable.
One override here is that if you really do not feel that you have the time and you don't need the money then despite it coming from a recommendation it might be better to let it pass. The last day or two has made me realise that there is more to life than doing more work and I could be struggling fitting this one in and that I don't need the hassle. In fact I think in my first post I was hinting that I didn't want this one. I'm already taking more on from the one who recommended me and from another I'm meeting with this week. Gotta get that work life balance right.
I can see why you are apprehensive over the information that you will be able to get but provided that you have access to all client documentation (including the last three months of the period for which accounts have already been produced), the trial balance and the accounts relating to such there should be enough to rebuild position in order to move forwards.
The other question to ask here is what service do you believe that you will be providing compared to what service the client believes that you will be providing for them.
I am reading this that they are looking for you to totally replace their accountant possibly without realising what the accountant does and for you to take over everything.
I've made it every clear that they need an Accountant as well, he in fact said he had another Accountant in mind. I think it was the fact that they were asked only 2days prior to the VAT deadline for the paperwork that swung it in getting someone who they will be able to have more access to, the conversation with my existing client in terms of what I do and the fact that they are expanding
Might be worth confirming the scenario exactly without any preconceived assumptions over client expectations.
Hope that your having a good Sunday afternoon Jo, having a lovely evening thanks, hope you are too Shaun
Talk soon,
Shaun.
p.s. I'm beginning to think that you're not being completely honest about this cake being in the post... You ate it didn't you... Nooooo, I reckon you are saying that just to get more, oh go on I will send another batch of goodies

Sorry for the bold italic answers, can't access the colour button on my ipad.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

lol Jo, glad to help.

I must start to realise the only document that I should consider more important than responding to your posts is a new engagement letter.

I won't be so slap dash with my prioritisation again.

And nope, definitely not seen any cake deliveries... ... so... the replacements in the post then??? yes????

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
lol Jo, glad to help.

I must start to realise the only document that I should consider more important than responding to your posts is a new engagement letter.

I won't be so slap dash with my prioritisation again.
And nope, definitely not seen any cake deliveries... ... so... the replacements in the post then??? yes????

There is a ring doughnut in the post, I will have to make more cakes. Definitely going to need an Accountant, cos I will have a new bakery at this rate.

Sorry I forgot to say thank you, how rude of me. Thank you.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Monday 12th of January 2015 06:47:15 AM

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
lol Jo, glad to help.

I must start to realise the only document that I should consider more important than responding to your posts is a new engagement letter.

I won't be so slap dash with my prioritisation again.
And nope, definitely not seen any cake deliveries... ... so... the replacements in the post then??? yes????

I'm beginning to think that the postman has smelled (smelt?) the lovely aroma and eaten it themselves, because my cake never arrived either

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
Shamus wrote:
lol Jo, glad to help.

I must start to realise the only document that I should consider more important than responding to your posts is a new engagement letter.

I won't be so slap dash with my prioritisation again.
And nope, definitely not seen any cake deliveries... ... so... the replacements in the post then??? yes????

There is a ring doughnut in the post, I will have to make more cakes. Definitely going to need an Accountant, cos I will have a new bakery at this rate.
Sorry I forgot to say thank you, how rude of me. Thank you.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Monday 12th of January 2015 06:47:15 AM

Morning Jo,

The hole from the middle of the donut has arrived but the rest of it was missing.

p.s. no probs at all, always glad to help, just glad that my ramblings made sense to you.

p.s.2 And congratulations on your 1000th post Jo

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll wrote:
Shamus wrote:
lol Jo, glad to help.

I must start to realise the only document that I should consider more important than responding to your posts is a new engagement letter.

I won't be so slap dash with my prioritisation again.
And nope, definitely not seen any cake deliveries... ... so... the replacements in the post then??? yes????
I'm beginning to think that the postman has smelled (smelt?) the lovely aroma and eaten it themselves, because my cake never arrived either

I've just caught the postman, crumbs all over his choppers!! Maybe my sister outlaw was right and I really should set up a baking business, gotta to be easier than bookkeeping

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:

Morning Jo,
The hole from the middle of the donut has arrived but the rest of it was missing.

p.s. no probs at all, always glad to help, just glad that my ramblings made sense to you.

p.s.2 And congratulations on your 1000th post Jo

Stop it! You've eaten it again haven't you? what is this, please sir can I have some more? I will be up all night at this rate.

1005 now, most of them talking rubbish so my aim is to be nominated and of course voted for daftest bookkeeper of the year to match my award for being the daftest Aunt in the world

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Ooh, cake again.... Hang on a min, I know that sort of cake... This feels like a trap.... But... Cake...

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Don't do it Shaun, it'll end in tiers!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Tiers... Thats like at least twice as much cake :) (lol)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

You two crack me up! Although Shaun - you must have weddings on your mind, as the piccie on the cake gives this one away - clearly an anniversary cake ....a 50th one (with a picture of my parents wedding day)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Always got weddings on my mind Jo... There's cake there.... Of course, I've now been blacklisted from hanging around all of the local places used for receptions on Saturday afternoons.

Why has nobody had the bright idea of divorce cakes... And divorce aniversary cakes!!! (Seperation, Nisi and Absolute).... I would be sooo fat by now :)

Have a good day now y'all

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

So now you are looking in such places outside of your normal geographic area.

My bessie mate had the first divorce party I had ever heard of, complete with wedding type invites - you know the ones, a picture of the bride and groom torn down the middle, plus yes a divorce cake. Just one tier though.

You have a good day too.

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Always got weddings on my mind Jo... There's cake there.... Of course, I've now been blacklisted from hanging around all of the local places used for receptions on Saturday afternoons.

Why has nobody had the bright idea of divorce cakes... And divorce aniversary cakes!!! (Seperation, Nisi and Absolute).... I would be sooo fat by now :)
Have a good day now y'all
Shaun.

Sadly, cake will be off the menu for me as I begin my healthy eating regime for the next few months. I did a test run a few weeks before Christmas and lost half a stone (put it back on again with mince pies (i love them) and Christmas cake etc etc, but it's given me the impetus to try and lose two or three stone. Wish me luck!

And Jo, that's a lovely cake, congrats to your Mum and Dad.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Losing half a stone... Now that would be a choice between sawing the bottom bit of one leg off or stopping eating cake.... Wait, I'm thinking....

My idea of dieting is the buy twice as much as I would normally eat but then only eat half of it.... So far that approach is working well (far more excercise carrying the heavier bags from the car).... Would probably lose even more if I walked the ten feet to the shops.

My clients teach me so much about logic....

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 13th of January 2015 01:58:33 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Sadly, cake will be off the menu for me as I begin my healthy eating regime for the next few months. I did a test run a few weeks before Christmas and lost half a stone (put it back on again with mince pies (i love them) and Christmas cake etc etc, but it's given me the impetus to try and lose two or three stone. Wish me luck!
And Jo, that's a lovely cake, congrats to your Mum and Dad.

Well done you on the first loss - if you hadnt lost that before the cake you would be half a stone heavier. I dont make mince pices, but have made mincemeat swirls - really easy and I will let you have the recipe when youve lost the weight! So get the jar of mincemeat in ready and there is your incentive - good luck! Oh I have another new career - teacher of cake making!

Thank you about the cake - its was a couple of years ago, just came across the piccie!

-- Edited by Cheshire on Tuesday 13th of January 2015 06:40:13 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Losing half a stone... Now that would be a choice between sawing the bottom bit of one leg off or stopping eating cake.... Wait, I'm thinking....

My idea of dieting is the buy twice as much as I would normally eat but then only eat half of it.... So far that approach is working well (far more excercise carrying the heavier bags from the car).... Would probably lose even more if I walked the ten feet to the shops.

My clients teach me so much about logic....

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 13th of January 2015 01:58:33 PM
So where are you parking the car? Ram-raiding the store again? Its a grab and run isnt it - the cake is always right at the front of the store....