Clients tax return - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Georgie · Guru

Clients tax return

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Providing they have their own online gateway reference yes.

Georgie · Guru

Right ok, I just been had then. The nasty little swine has used my calculation printout from HMRC and submitted his own.

Georgie

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Oh dear, still send him your bill and hunt him down!!! Unless he thought that's what he had to do and your cheque us genuinely in the post (hope so!)

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Would he have had enough info? or had you already done most of the tax return and was just showing him the calculation?

I would still charge for the work, and if you know how, do a screen grab of your browser history for the time when you were doing the return. If he doesn't pay up keep his paperwork and if necessary issue a small claim.

EDIT: Even without the screen grab you've got the calculation print off, plus presumably emails discussing. Save it, you'll have a strong case if you issue a small claims.

As Jo said, hopefully its a misunderstanding.

-- Edited by 111 Bookkeeping and Payroll on Friday 23rd of January 2015 02:58:50 PM

Georgie · Guru

Yeah I had done most of the tax return but just emailed him the calculation, ( along with invoice) I printed it off for my records and it has the date on it....when I go into my account with HMRC it says his was submitted 2 days later. So I have proof.

Georgie

Georgie · Guru

If he has his own Gateway ID and logs in, can he see my tax return that I had prepared for him then?

Georgie

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Yes he will, all you are doing his accessing the clients account through the agent gateway. If he has his own log in, he will see exactly the same as you.

He won't see any of your other clients details though.

-- Edited by 111 Bookkeeping and Payroll on Friday 23rd of January 2015 03:27:37 PM

Georgie · Guru

Oh what a swine!

OK, so apart from taking him to the small claims court (which I intend to do) can I keep all his paperwork? I have just prepared and submitted a set of annual accounts for the twit so have his bank statements etc

well and truly p***** off

Georgie

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Yes you can, but it's possible he may not ask for it. If and when he does, simply inform him you are placing a lien on the paperwork until you've been paid. To remove the lien he would have to get a court order. Once you've told him a lien has been placed, that's it, you don't need to do anymore.

You can't keep a clients paperwork though if it's a Limited Company and you must hand them back on request.

PS, are you sure you didn't misspell twit

Georgie · Guru

Oh yes sorry, my anglish is not very good!

Thinking about this, I may have the last laugh..... It was well documented on here around this time last year because I thought at that time he wouldn't pay me then either. He did eventually but I decided I didn't want clients like him so when he asked me to complete his annual accounts this year I put my fee up hoping he would go elsewhere. Well he didn't so I did them anyway and made him pay me up front before I started them. Even though he hasn't paid me for his SA this time I am still £50 better off than I was last year for doing both his accounts and his tax return. So I shouldn't really get upset.

I do think he had "insider " information about how to submit his tax return on line himself as he really isn't that bright. His girlfriend did me a wonderful spread sheet to help me prepare his accounts and used terminology that would only be familiar to somebody working in accounts one way or another.

Why would he do this to me you may ask? Yes? No? Well he told me he was winding down his company and asked me how to go about it. I explained that his company would have to stop trading for 3 months etc. What I don't think he realises is , is that there is still a set of accounts to prepare and submit from the start of his new financial year to when he closes it..... I won't be doing them that's for sure!!

He really is a thick moron......

Georgie (laughing now)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hilarious Georgie - you go girl. Although I think I would send the bill, then chase once, then say you need to finish off the final accounts. THEN he will realise he needs you or his paperwork back. THEN say you will do it but only if he pays your o/s bill plus the up front fee for finishing it off (and oops you could load that one a bit!)

Still annoying, but whose gonna have the last laugh now!

PS, are you sure you didn't misspell twit - lol John

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

How come you cant keep a Ltd Co paperwork? Just out of interest....

Hopefully as Jo says, he just thought he had to do it himself, and will pay up

I had a client not pay me. I did the first set of accounts, which he was supposed to post to CH, but didn't. He never got a fine because he never submitted them. Then, CH applied to strike off.

I'd done the CT600 and submitted it through my software, and thought that HMRC would veto the strike off, but have just seen the company has been dissolved.... which means he probably didn't inform HMRC that the Ltd Co was trading, so the CT600 will be parked in Cyberspace, and he has got away with £3-4k tax! And he will be still trading!! So annoying

Georgie · Guru

I don't know Michelle I read it somewhere, I may be wrong though

Re: The Twit

Please don't give him any credit. This guy is stupid, no other word for it and I'm being generous here. Last year he wouldn't pay me the couple pounds a month to process a directors salary through PAYE. He decided he would do it himself . This is where his own Gateway ID comes from I guess . Anyway he got completely confused, couldn't do it. so he didn't. Of course when I prepared his accounts for him he was shocked at the CT bill even though I had told him the tax savings of running a payroll .

Oh how I wish I could go back into my account and submit an "amended" tax return....wouldn't that be lovely, just pop in another zero somewhere....

Anyway, I've done all my tax returns for this year (with the help of that a**e) so going to take a nice deep breath and switch off

Georgie

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

LOL.. cant say the joke of an extra zero didn't cross my mind but I thought I might get shot for saying it!!

GordonB · Veteran Member

It has never happened to me but I have thought of the possibility, especially for those clients who come in saying "I thought I could do it myself but need some help". You could print off the calculation and then change a figure say add a zero to income but obviously remember to change it again before submission. No payment no submission and if they submit it themselves would they check the figures again? Hopefully not.

Georgie · Guru

I thought that too Gordon, can't believe this doesn't happen more often. I'd never heard of it until it happened to me. Interestingly I have just logged in to my HMRC account and viewed the submitted tax return and I am still named as his tax advisor, the twit didn't even remove that...

Georgie

Georgie · Guru

Morning all,

So anyway I have been mulling this over (hell hath no fury and all that) and I wondered how I would go about objecting to the closure of his company, after all, am I not a creditor?

Georgie

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi
Set a 'monitor' on companies house against the company then if there is a request to them to dissolve the company then you will hear about it within 24hours. Then you would need to write to Companies House to object to the wind up, with the reasons why and proof of why. Simples.

I'm assuming he has paid everyone else. Is the er money in the company to pay you out...wonder what would happen to that if he didn't pay you.

I would send him an email saying, you notice he has lodged the self assessment retun that you prepared on his behalf, here is my invoice, can you please pay within xx days, then hound him until he does, make it very clear you won't give up, at least until he puts that wind up request in, then copy him in to the letter to companies house! Haha stick that in your pipe twit.

Good luck with it

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

You would email companies house to object, on the enquiries@ email address.... but if it's a personal tax return, your invoice should be to him, not the company?? So its not the companies debt??

-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Saturday 24th of January 2015 10:33:38 AM

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

If you register with Thomas Higgins, you can pay £2.50 to send out a "letter before action", which is an official looking document, which makes it look like you have emplyed a solicitor - it states they will take him to court if he doesn't pay. That sometimes works. You dont have to then progress the claim via TH, you can do it yourself cheaper

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

FoxAccountancyServices wrote:
You would email companies house to object, on the enquiries@ email address.... but if it's a personal tax return, your invoice should be to him, not the company?? So its not the companies debt??

-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Saturday 24th of January 2015 10:33:38 AM

Sorry - good point Michelle. I was thinking Georgie might be owed for the company work too.

Georgie · Guru

Hi

Thanks for the advice.... I have just checked the invoice I sent to him and it's addressed to : His name, then his company?

Georgie

AndersonAccountancy · Member

If I can interject here guys.....

Apolgies you are faced with problematic clients but if I may enquire, without patronising and this is obviously closing the gate after the horse has bolted, as to why you are using the clients GG log in to submit their returns? Why are you not using software such as TaxCalc? A printed pdf of the tax return has the IR mark which proves beyond doubt you did the work and is submitted via your GG. TaxCalc unlimited SA returns costs about £480 a year so 2 returns and its paid for itself.

Also, SA is personal and not corporate so as long as your invoice states its for work compiling and completeing the self assessment tax return, it cannot really be challenged as an Ltd expense.

Just my thoughts anyway :)

Georgie · Guru

Hi David,

I am not using the clients GG to log in to submit their tax returns. I use my own but when I log in to my account I see that his was submitted 2 days after I sent him the calculation . When I asked if he could submit it himself John from 111 Bookkeeping said as long as he had his own GG he could log in, see my tax return I had prepared and submit it ??

Georgie

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Georgie had completed the SA using her agent gateway. Before submitting it she printed a copy of the calculation to show her client, who then allegedly (1) went into the tax return using his personal gateway and submitted the tax return. The reason I presume is so that he could then claim to have completed the return and refuse to pay his invoice. Georgie has enough proof so she would win a small claims easily.

And maybe it's just me because I like to sleep soundly at night, but £240 to complete a Directors tax return? Unless he has complicated tax affairs it would take no time at all.

(1) Just in case his lawyers are watching

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

AndersonAccountancy wrote:
why you are using the clients GG log in to submit their returns? Why are you not using software such as TaxCalc?

I think Georgie, like myself, uses a HMRC online agent account, to file SA returns. I don't bother with software for SA returns, as the HMRC tax portal is simple enough, and is free. I only bother with tax software for my CT600's, and the odd partnership return.

The problem is, when you become the agent of a client who already has a GG account set up, the client can see what you see, if they log into their own GG. So, they can pick up where you left off, or file the return themselves. (That said, a determined client could still take the draft PDF return created in software, and work out how to duplicate the figures into their HMRC tax return)

-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Saturday 24th of January 2015 02:54:52 PM

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Hi Georgie. Do you know for sure at this stage whether he is going to refuse to pay? If he doesn't then I think the Thomas Higgins letter is a good suggestion, and will show that you mean business. Also, once its outstanding by more than 31 days, add a late payment fee of £40 and mention that you intend doing so in your first reminder letter.

I don't think you have grounds for objecting to a strike off as the debt isn't a company one. If he owes anything to HMRC though, they will object anyway.

Georgie · Guru

Ok, thanks guys. I will follow your advice and if he doesn't pay, which I am almost certain he won't I will send the letter

Georgie

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

oh yes, good point made by John.. if you sent the invoice one more time, by recorded delivery, with a note saying he will get £40 admin fee if not paid within 48 hours. Then you add that £40 to the TH letter

Georgie · Guru

Yes Ok thank you Michelle, John and Joanne, you've been such a great a help

Georgie x

Georgie · Guru

UPDATE:

Client has informed me by email that seeing as he hadn't heard from me (he denies receiving any emails) he phoned HMRC and they helped him to fill his tax return in and seeing as i didn't get paid first before I did the work he isn't going to pay me. He has also asked for his paperwork back.

Georgie

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Sorry to hear that Georgie,

Unfortunately there are some out there with little by way of personal ethics.

The thing to ask yourself is whether it worth your time that could be better spent on more profitable clients pursuing the debt through the legal system?

If he is a limited company you have no right of lien over his books and other paperwork but you do over anything that you have done for him (so he has no right to your permanent file, client notes, computer files, etc.).

If he is a sole trader then you do have a right of lien over his books and records until payment is received.

Good luck,

Shaun.

Georgie · Guru

Hi Shaun

Yes I was starting to think that , it's not worth getting wound up over and he still has to get someone complete a final set of accounts for him. So hopefully the new accountant will be in touch sooner or later.

Should I formally disengage him now or just leave it?

Georgie

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

I wouldn't answer, and deny receiving his emails. ;) I'd also send out the invoice saying "as I haven't heard from you, here is a copy invoice due for immediate payment. Once payment has been received, all records will be returned." If he gets smart, send him copies of the emails he claims to have lost, and perhaps suggest 75% payment as a gesture of goodwill. You don't have to withhold his books indefinately, but there's noting wrong with being a bit savvy to try and get paid first. He's clearly doing that do you. Let him stew!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

I agree with Michelle, might as well spend 10 minutes on it before you give up! Interesting how he claims not to have heard from you, but clearly never bothered to ring you, but yet managed to fill in his tax return with YOUR calculations!!!!!!!!!!!!

Numpty!

Georgie · Guru

Yes I know Joanne and yes Michelle good idea!

Georgie

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

FoxAccountancyServices wrote:
I wouldn't answer, and deny receiving his emails. ;)

Classic, I love it. Fully agree with the rest of your post.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Don't forget to send the invoice out as recorded delivery, signed for - with a letter casually stating that records will be returned once payment in received. Then, you will know he has received it, and he cant make any more denials.

Saying "as I haven't heard from you" means you need to do this quickly, strike while the iron is hot.

When he comes back with his line about not hearing from you, then you post out to him (recorded signed for) copies of all emails sent to him, highlighting the dates and times. You tell him that the work was done, and that he could see that when he accessed his own account to file the figures. He could have only used HMRC to tell him they were final and show him how to press the submit button - but getting to those figures took work - your work.

You can also mention that he should know, giving your working history, that you wouldn't ignore him, and that if he had picked up the phone to you, you could have moved forward together. You are not allowed to file without his consent. And, maybe mention that your call logs show no record of him trying to contact you. Be subtle in making it known that he cant say that every source of contact failed. Try to be understanding but firm.. he wont pay you if you p. him off completely. Empathise, but make it clear that it is not your responsibility that his email had faults, and you still did the work.

Don't mention a reduction just yet, let that land and see his response. Only give a discount as the last measure. Maybe 10% for the fact you didn't "press a button" for him.

All in all be savvy - try and get him on side while making it known that you are not a pushover.. he doesnt sound totally stupid, so he will see that you are setting up your end game, when he spots the effort you are going to with recorded mail and highlighted emails. It may come to nothing but enjoy the learning curve. You can decide when to give the records back after this plays out.

Sorry, been watching too much Scandal.. I am Olivia Pope today - taking no prisoners !!!

Georgie · Guru

Wow thanks Michelle, your are such a great help. Will get onto this straight away!

Georgie

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Kick his ass, Georgie.. this one sounds like he deserves it ;)

Georgie · Guru

Hi Michelle,

Just to let you know that I have been paid, so thank you for your advice. The client has stated that they no longer wish to continue with my services....I am relieved as who needs clients like that? I was wondering though do I need to send them a disengagement letter ?

Georgie

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Whilst Im not Michelle...
Well done you. Think I would be tempted to email him and tell him that you can no longer deal with him as a client as the trust has gone(!) and yes I would send him the letter, given the kind of person he is, then he cant come back in 12months and throw that at you when you havent acted for him!!

Georgie · Guru

Yes OK I will, thank you Joanne

Georgie

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Excellent news on you getting paid Georgie, great result.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Hi Georgie

SO glad to hear of your triumph! Yes happily send a formal letter of disengagement, and remove yourself as HMRC agent. Then sit back, and look forward to having that time for a new appreciative client, this time next year :)

Georgie · Guru

To remove myself as their agent do I just hit the delete button or is there something else I need to do?

Oh and "out of good faith" they want me to post the paperwork back!

Georgie

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Yes, just delete. (I did that but still got a couple of calls from HMRC for an ex client - only because they were trying to 'hunt him down' for non payment so they just asked if I knew of any way to contact him! But thats unusual methinks)

Tell him he needs to sign the dis-engagement letter first!

Georgie · Guru

Hi Joanne,

LOL he won't do that. I emailed him and he replied - rather nastily - but I have conformation he has read this one at least! ....Just off to press delete.

Georgie

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

I wonder why he wont sign it??!!! How very odd! Arent you too busy to go to the post office for a while? Oh and doesnt he need to pay the postage? Ok Im getting silly now!