Why cloud based solutions are a stupid idea... - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Why cloud based solutions are a stupid idea...

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Sage now has Sage Drive. It links you to the client, and stores the company file on your machine, while also uploading it, and syncing it with the client machine.

I did have an issue with it, and because of this, I am not sure if the client HAS to have a running support subscription, for it to work. My client couldn't see anything I had done since May, and I suddenly couldn't get passed log in. This seemed to be after his support ran out. So not sure if a glitch or down to the support. Be nice if anyone knows the answer!

However, all was not lost - his company.000 file on my machine was up to date, so I created a new company (company.001) renamed company.001 folder to company.001old and changed company.000 to company.001 and then I was able to access his data through the new company I had created. I have been sending back ups in the meantime, while I figure out what the issue was.

The new Sage Drive seems to be the best of both worlds... when its working!

EDIT:

I am not into Cloud versions of software yet, as I just don't think they are as good as Sage. They are mainly geared to the client doing the bookkeeping, not the accountant. Call it domestic instead of industrial! The ones I have used so far, don't let you manipulate the nominal list very easily, seem to add that little bit of time to every posting (some don't let you tab, but you instead have to use the mouse), some present info in a weird way (QB put VAT liability into creditors last time I used it) and I find looking for a mistake is harder than it is with the Sage Audit Trail function. And, to get the same sort of information as Sage Instant, which is one-off fee that you can use for years, the cloud can cost more over time. Sage One have a £5 a month subscription but its crap! Last time I looked, you get a TB, but no general ledger to work out why the bank isn't balanced? If you go for the £10 a month version, you pay £360 over 3 years.. yet Sage Instant would cost you about £125-150 and you could probably use it for more than that. I have clients who are still using 2009, 2010 and 2012 (poor 2011 - dont know what happened there!)

-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Thursday 24th of September 2015 11:01:10 AM

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Shaun, how horrible.

I lost internet connection at home on the 11th September, and only got it back on 19th September. Long story cut short, BT persuaded me to go on Infinity in August, found they couldn't give me the minimum speed so agreed to revert back to Copper. Cut off infinity but messed up on the copper. Managed to get by with phone tethering but would have struggled at the office.

It's one of the reasons I would be reluctant to use cloud software.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

It's not ideal long term, but a mobile dongle is a good backup for when this happens. I can plug a SIM card into my router and keep working. It's not ideal for streaming movies, but for things like zero it's fine.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Great idea, Chris!!

VinceH · Expert

In terms of internet access: what Kris said. I don't keep a mobile dongle to hand because my phone can achieve the same thing (just set it as a mobile hotspot, and connect the computer to it instead of a router) - but either way, it means if my internet connection goes down, I can still get online. I wouldn't want to use it for much more than email and simple web stuff - but I can't see I'd need much more.

And in terms of cloud (ALL PRAISE THE CLOUD!): What Shaun, Michelle and John said!

Michelle: You've just made a point that I've probably commented on before: The user interface - being browser-based - tends to be very limited compared to a good desktop solution, and tends towards the one-screen-per-transaction input model that I hate with a vengeance. It's slower than a decent batch data entry screen just for taking that form alone - then you have to put up with lag between each transaction because "it's cloud" (ALL PRAISE THE CLOUD!)

On the subject of Sage Drive: I'd *guess* the answer to your question is going to be yes; the client needs to be paying Sage. I can't see them providing ongoing use of their service otherwise - any company that offers something like that does it because it looks like good marketing at the start, but in the long term it isn't sustainable; they bank on people paying out and then not using stuff. But here we're talking about something working with accounts data, which means if it's used at all, that use would be ongoing - so a sub of some kind goes without saying. At least it's not DaaPR (Data as a Protection Racket) though, because you have the data; Sage Drive is just doing a Drop Box.

(Although their subscription software model IS DaaPR - but that's another story).

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

HI Vince... thanks for the added disadvantage of "waiting" for the transaction to complete, and the one page at a time - I forgot about those, but have torn my hair out over them before!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Early in my bookkeeping career I had no phone nor internet for three weeks, so I wouldnt want to be reliant on the fluffy clouds. Not having access to dropbox would be bad enough, so there is no way I want to be more reliant on it.

Princess · Senior Member

I lose my internet connection at least once a year as the cables in our village our so old and break all the time. It takes them several weeks to fix it. I get rubbish internet speeds anyway so trying to use cloud stuff is painful. I recently had one client that insisted but fortunately after it taking me 4 hours to do what would take me 2 hours on the desktop version of QuickBooks he changed his mind. Thank goodness. it was just no fun at all. And no back up. The fact I could only have one screen open at a time was the biggest issue, it drove me mad. It just wasn't user friendly.

VinceH · Expert

Note that I referred to the one page per transaction problem, rather than one page open at a time. The one I use most (Neetrix) certainly does allow users to open multiple pages - I just ctrl-click on a link to open a second tab.

There is an obvious problem: updates made by the user to one page not reflecting in another that's open and displayed. Some may block the ctrl-click action for that reason - it's trivial to deal with in a desktop application, but I would imagine is a lot more difficult (though not impossible - I can see possible solutions, though I'm not a web developer*) in something web based.

* Websites, and a little PHP and Javascript where necessary is a whole world away from being a web developer.

Sharon Eyre · Senior Member

the internet in our village is very poor which is the main reason I do not chose to go cloud based, I am lucky to even get a mobile phone signal most days!!

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

I would say a mobile dongle or have a contingency plan to work elsewhere. The big advantage of being cloud based means I can port my business anywhere very quickly and very easily! I can file accounts etc. from my mobile phone.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Makes me realise the village I live in is not so bad after all. I keep getting emails about super fast broadband and being told I can apply for £3k grant towards it, but of course I cannot as I work from home and as soon as you check out the postcode area the system realises Im not in the middle of a trading estate. But even that would be useless if its the phone lines that are an issue. The mobile dongle is great if you have a laptop and one Ive added to my list when I get round to getting my own laptop. I already have a clients laptop with me all the time so Ive delayed getting my own so far.

Problem is when you are off for days, or weeks as I was, its not very easy to keep using your mobile. Im fortunate in that my contingency plan involves relatives who only live 3 miles away but even after the first week this drove me nuts as you always forget to take some crucial bit with you. But if you have no relatives close by that makes it even harder.

Upside - peace and quiet on the old office phone!

VinceH · Expert

Ignoring the cloudy stuff for the moment...

Joanne:

"The mobile dongle is great if you have a laptop and one Ive added to my list when I get round to getting my own laptop."

Mobile dongles aren't just for laptops - they're fine for desktops as well, as long as they have USB ports (so anything in the last, what, 20 years or so?) The only caveat is that wherever the computer is, you need to be able to get a signal for whatever network the dongle is on.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Thanks Vince, never knew 😳

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

VinceH wrote:
Ignoring the cloudy stuff for the moment...

Joanne:
"The mobile dongle is great if you have a laptop and one Ive added to my list when I get round to getting my own laptop."
Mobile dongles aren't just for laptops - they're fine for desktops as well, as long as they have USB ports (so anything in the last, what, 20 years or so?) The only caveat is that wherever the computer is, you need to be able to get a signal for whatever network the dongle is on.

You just need to watch your data usage if using it as a permanent solution.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

HendyPhilhendy wrote:

You just need to watch your data usage if using it as a permanent solution.

Exactly why its not a sustainable option for the longer term internet meltdowns and why its better to have a mix of options available

VinceH · Expert

"You just need to watch your data usage if using it as a permanent solution."

Quite so - but I wouldn't advocate the use of a mobile dongle as a permanent solution, only as a backup.

Mind you, I wouldn't advocate depending on a system that in turn depends on an internet connection in the first place - which is where this whole thread started with Shaun's post!

Princess · Senior Member

Mobile dongles are ok if you have mobile signal. I live in the middle of a forest. The donkeys are quicker than my broadband and I don't have mobile signal at all...

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Princess
That gave me a giggle. Maybe you should build a tree house an as office (although dont forget to get the advice of your Accountant as to whether its allowable or not. Sorry had to add that last bit!!). Your forest comment reminded me of an old boss who used to have to hang half out of one of the bedroom windows to ring the office from his mobile...... and hang on for dear life. I have noooo idea why he didnt use the landline!!!!! But it gave me the opportunity to take the proverbial out of him all the time!

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Ive just ordered Sage 2016 - lets hope these new bank feeds are worth the investment!

VinceH · Expert

Although I've no intention of buying the latest Sage unless I have no choice, I have to admit to being curious as to how well the bank feeds (for Sage and others who provide it) cope with the crap I see on some clients' statements - and/or the lack of paperwork I get from them to substantiate the crap I see on the statements.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

I'll keep you posted Vince!

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

As a slight aside I have been using the cloud based solutions to run my practice for the last 3 years or so. In that time I have had one half day recently where I was unable to access the internet and that is it. My contingency is to work from home or alternatively at my mother in laws. However, they are all on the same telephone exchange. I could have gone into town and worked at a cafe or something of I needed to but instead did a few personal bits at home and caught up later. As I say though that is once in 3 years!

VinceH · Expert

Phil, internet connectivity is only one issue - and for some people, it can be a big one. See the post from Princess a little further up for an example of the problem. Not everybody has access to a good, fast, reliable internet connection.

But as I said, that's only one issue. The magic words for the rest all follow "Your cloud provider has to keep your data..." - safe and secure, available and accessible. They have to be reliable.

Now, for all of those you can point to past performance - but on the intertubes, past performance is meaningless; if a company has never been hacked, that doesn't say one iota about how good their security is - it only says they have never been hacked. Their security might be the best there is, or it might be that the bad guys have not noticed or taken an interest in them - so far.

Available and accessible is an interesting one: any company can run into troublesome times - so what happens if you try to log-in one day and find you can't because the data centre your cloud provider uses has pulled the plug due to an unpaid bill? And there is no way you can seriously say "That will never happen" unless you have access to a cross-temporal observation globe (aka a crystal ball).

FWIW: With my clients, as I've said before, a couple do use cloudy crap - their choice, not mine. My contingency plan if my connection goes down is to use my phone if I need to do anything urgent, or say "Oh well, it'll have to wait" if I don't.

For the rest of my clients, my contingency plan if my connection goes down is not to even notice and just carry on working - because the connection doesn't matter.

Cloud computing: Your data in someone else's hands, your faith in someone else's abilities to keep it safe, secure, and accessible.

And something I said on Twitter a few days ago (based on something I said further up this thread):

Cloud-based accounting: a good solution to the problem of accounts work not taking long enough.

Sharon Eyre · Senior Member

I do not like the layout of the new Sage 16- its clumsy and too busy- I tried to set the bank feed up and it kept telling me my bank account details were incorrect!!

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Have they changed it again since 2015??

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

HendyPhilhendy wrote:
As a slight aside I have been using the cloud based solutions to run my practice for the last 3 years or so. In that time I have had one half day recently where I was unable to access the internet and that is it. My contingency is to work from home or alternatively at my mother in laws. However, they are all on the same telephone exchange. I could have gone into town and worked at a cafe or something of I needed to but instead did a few personal bits at home and caught up later. As I say though that is once in 3 years!

Very lucky. Try that over three weeks.

Ditto what Vince said.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Sharon Eyre wrote:
I do not like the layout of the new Sage 16- its clumsy and too busy- I tried to set the bank feed up and it kept telling me my bank account details were incorrect!!

I think 2015 is far too busy, cant imagine how 2016 could be worse!

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

I find 2015 is a bit of a pig, in that, they have put so many icons on the top bar, and they all look the same! I find myself hesitating, while I find the button I need! but I guess tat will come in time.

I dont mind the new menu with transactions and nominal codes.. I am pleased it will keep your place in one window if you flick to another. Not having to go thorugh maintenance for corrections is godsend! And I like that VAT has its own quick button. Also no more having to change the view in customers and suppliers...

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Actually, off subject slightly but I was talking to someone the other day about Sage and it was mentioned that for inventory Sage defaults to LIFO. Totally against IFRS but up until this year acceptable with UK GAAP.

Now that UK GAAP has been replaced with FRS102 has LIFO been completely removed from the latest version of Sage as an option?

What about people using older versions of Sage? Can you simply switch off LIFO as an option?

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

My sage 2013 help says:

Note: The First In First Out (FIFO) method is used to calculate the value of stock issued. This means the cost price of the oldest stock is used to calculate the cost of stock. Stock valuations and stock activity also use the FIFO costing method.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Michelle,

which of course is completely correct. Exactly the way things should be.

I think that I need to have a chat with this person again as they are absolutely convined that the software is defaulting to LIFO.

This clients quite tech savvy and they were so adamant about the default that they have me absolutely convinced.

Might be time for a quick site visit and software demonstration methinks.

Thanks for getting back to me and arming me ready for a meeting.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

I looked at 2012 as well, and that said the same.. but possibly both version looks to the same help file? I know report designer works that way. The 2015 help is totally different - and kinda sh*te! It couldn't find anything related to "FIFO" when I ran the search

YLB-HO · Guru

I really wish I had more time to join in. I am supposed to be on my way home after a really bad day, and thought I would drop in, see what you are all up to and "cheer myself up"!

I recently made a comment on LinkedIn, that I used to have slow computers, but now I have a slow cloud. I recently upgraded to fibre, as its available locally , but have not noticed the difference.

The trouble with technology is that is changes so quickly and has too many "holes" in it . tehe

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Might be worth doing a speed check Frauke.

You should be able to get between 16 and 38mb a sec

I went on Fibre in August and it was only by chance, when speaking to BT, that I realised I was only getting 10 mb. It took 3 weeks and 8 days loss of internet to get switched back to ADSL

http://speedtest.btwholesale.com

-- Edited by Leger on Friday 2nd of October 2015 10:39:47 PM

-- Edited by Leger on Friday 2nd of October 2015 10:40:14 PM

Lady of Ledger · Veteran Member

I have a 4G WiFi mobile dongle from EE (it works on 3G......or even 2G when others aren't available). It costs me £10 per month on contract and is worth every penny........

I use it for when I go to clients and need to use my laptop - it saves me having to use their internet connection. It allows up to 10 people to use it at any one time, so we take it with us when we go away for the weekend (saving the cost of WiFi in hotels etc), it works in the car (great for using maps etc) and it's superb as a back up for my desktop computers if and when I get an extended period of downtime from my home broadband.

It's a tool of the job in my mind

Lady of Ledger · Veteran Member

Forgot to say...........that includes a gigabyte of info each month - more than enough if you're using it for accounting business, emails and the odd game of Hayday

I've never gone above 250 meg........but for £15 per month, you can get 3 GB per month.