Ive not posted on here for a while, but have been asked to pose the following question, really aimed at the administrators of BKN (Steve, etc), rather than the moderator of this forum.
In the home page of the BKN website there is the following statement:
Since 2006, the BKN forum has become the UK's most visited, and trusted, online discussion forum for book-keepers to debate issues, and to provide help and support to one another.
We are an independent resource for book-keepers from all walks of life, whether self-employed or employed, qualified by exam or qualified by experience, or those just starting out. All book-keepers are welcome at BKN!
Now, based on the views of a select few within this forum, we have a large number of students and practicing bookkeepers who do not feel welcome and feel that their hard work and achievements are being greatly under-valued and misrepresented. So the question is, does this forum still fit in with the ideals that BKN were hoping for?
I personally don't use this site as much to learn as to help others if I can, but I find that people who take part in discussions are genuinely trying to be helpful even if some of the questions posted here by bookkeepers indicate that those bookkeepers need to complete training before they should be taking on clients.
I don't think it is fair on clients. This is my personal view.
But in terms of welcoming any one and every one I have not come across anything hostile or unfriendly.
If you have why don't you be specific about it?
I am sure the administrators of the site would be interested to learn.
I personally don't use this site as much to learn as to help others if I can, but I find that people who take part in discussions are genuinely trying to be helpful even if some of the questions posted here by bookkeepers indicate that those bookkeepers need to complete training before they should be taking on clients. I don't think it is fair on clients. This is my personal view.
I use it to both help where I can and ask questions where I need help. Even those fully trained will not be averse to asking questions and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Like you, I can't recall where any of the posters have been disparaging to those undertaking courses or those who are now in practice. I see Brian offers ICB and AAT courses, so is it students from one of those two bodies in particular Brian, or both?
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Just because I've not posted much recently (just too busy at the moment) don't think that I do not keep an eye on the posts on the site Brian (ask yourself why the spam that appears disappears just as quickly).
For what reason did you just decide to try and cause trouble?
Who really asked you (told you?) to pose that question?
Are you saying that you are a puppet for someone not brave enough to post themselves?
Is there really anyone asking you these questions to pass on or is this simply a matter that you don't like the honest unbiased answers that people get on the site when they ask which qualification is best for them?
I know that you offer two qualifications but I think that its clear which one you want people to take and unfortunately that isn't the one that accountants generally want to employ.
This site has always been welcoming and freindly to bookkeepers. Just recently there have been a couple of short responses (not from me) to businesses owners looking to miss out the bit where they hire a professional but they were still answered.
This site has a huge number of members from all major professional bodies plus QBE's, students and people just considering this as a career path.
We are fair to all organisations and give unbiased advice geared towards the individual. That includes in the last week or so me both complimenting the ICB on an ethical matter and advising an end user to consider an ICB course.
I know that you are very against truthful independant sites that actually help people so perhaps you should avoid posting here all together and leave this site to professional bookkeepers and accountants who are trying to actually help the people who ask questions and seek advice here.
If you would like to start giving technical answers to peoples queries then please post away but don't post threads like this under the feigned pretence that we are unwelcoming to financial professionals.
Tut, you don't post for months and then your first post is back to attempting to be devisive... Doesn't work Brian. People here can see straight through the spin the same as they saw through your hopeful message earlier this year when you posted that this site was dieing and that nobody posts here anymore.
The fact is that we are the biggest site for bookkeepers and we got there by helping people with the right technical, ethical, marketing, software and career advice.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I have not come across anything hostile or unfriendly.
Oops!
Lol, hi Julie. There's history here.
In the past there have been some real humdingers of arguments on the site but it's all been very quiet and amicable for months.
The issue is that not all of our advice goes down well with people trying to sell courses where we may be advising people to take a different route.
Thats the problem with independant sites in that we give independant advice!
Right, I'd lost track of time completely (though it was about five and it's eight!). Time to make my boy some food before I have social services beating my door down! lol
Talk later,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you all for replying. Ill ignore the personal jibes and try to give an idea of where I am coming from.
Firstly, I completely agree that the professional support provided here is excellent and I am not indicating there is any hostility or general unfriendliness. However, there are other ways when one may feel unwelcome. For example, Ive spoken to many ICB qualified students who see on a regular basis on here how they are only good enough to work to Trial Balance, their qualification will not get them employment or that accountants wont entertain them. I see countless examples that would suggest that these statements are not accurate, but how could someone feel welcome here when their achievements and/or hopes are being tarnished on a semi-regular basis.
Ive advised students to apply for positions that have had AAT as a requirement and theyve been successful. Id always encourage those going into practice to approach local accountants for work and Ive seen many forge valuable working relationships. If the opinions provided on here were taken into account these opportunities would have been passed by.
Our own college is fortunate to be accredited to offer different qualification routes and, despite whats been mentioned above; it does not matter to me which is taken. What does matter is that students are guided toward the correct path that will help them achieve their goals. However, when they later read that perhaps our guidance has been misleading, then I feel I have a duty to react on here, and I do so on behalf of IDEAL.
Shaun, I had no thoughts that this may slip under your radar and I fully expected you to reply. I posted this to promote discussion that will perhaps highlight that a successful career in bookkeeping & accounts cannot only be gained by obtaining only ACCA or AAT qualifications, and that ICB is a perfectly viable option.
Thank you all for replying. Ill ignore the personal jibes and try to give an idea of where I am coming from.
Firstly, I completely agree that the professional support provided here is excellent and I am not indicating there is any hostility or general unfriendliness.
Except that was what your first post indicated.
However, there are other ways when one may feel unwelcome. For example, Ive spoken to many ICB qualified students who see on a regular basis on here how they are only good enough to work to Trial Balance,
If you want to call yourself a bookkeeper then bookkeeping ends at trial balance. Everything beyond that is accountancy.
their qualification will not get them employment or that accountants wont entertain them.
Generally true but there is always the experience override where which bit of paper that you hold doesn't matter (experience wins)
I see countless examples that would suggest that these statements are not accurate,
And I see countless examples that show that the statements are accurate.
Think that we are both playing loose and fast with the word "countless" there.
but how could someone feel welcome here when their achievements and/or hopes are being tarnished on a semi-regular basis.
Why not ask the members here whether they feel that their achievements are tarnished? Go on, take a pole. The issue is not that the people are not being taught bookkeeping but rather that the qualification is not recognised in practice. Many here who are ICB and want to move to AAT will be able to sail through the skills check and then start on their route to accountancy.
we value our membership based on their knowledge, skills and experience. Not based on the bit of paper that they hold.
For people just entering the profession its different in that we try to ensure that they take the right first steps for where they eventually want to be. Their are a myriad of options out there with some options being veritable minefields... It helps to speak to others who have a map of the minefield.
Ive advised students to apply for positions that have had AAT as a requirement and theyve been successful.
Good for them. Its interesting to see that you offer AAT courses but push ICB and then tell people to apply for AAT jobs.
Id always encourage those going into practice to approach local accountants for work and Ive seen many forge valuable working relationships. If the opinions provided on here were taken into account these opportunities would have been passed by.
I'm one of the few around me who still tries to reply to hopeful applicants no matter which body they are from. Generally you really don't want to know accountants views on the deluge of applications that they get.
Our own college is fortunate to be accredited to offer different qualification routes and, despite whats been mentioned above, it does not matter to me which is taken.
But do you not only offer up to AAT level III so someone cannot actually become fully AAT qualified through you?
Thats why we tend to advise people to look at First Intuition where people can take the full qualification from end to end. If this is incorrect please advise (and update your website).
What does matter is that students are guided toward the correct path that will help them achieve their goals. However, when they later read that perhaps our guidance has been misleading, then I feel I have a duty to react on here, and I do so on behalf of IDEAL.
And the same here, people have been advised towards ACCA, AAT, ATT, CIMA, IFA, AIA, IAB and ICB in previous threads.
Now why did you feel that it was your duty to react now? What has been said recently that is so anti anyone? The site is fair and unbiased. Is this not just shock advertising in reaction to the reality that AAT is the prefered qualification by accountants and those who get through with other qualifications will not have got past agent advertised roles which are the bulk on sites such as Reed unless they also have relevant experience or other qualifications?
Shaun, I had no thoughts that this may slip under your radar and I fully expected you to reply.
I know. I endeavor not to disappoint even when a thread specifically states that this is for the site owners not myself.
I posted this to promote discussion that will perhaps highlight that a successful career in bookkeeping & accounts cannot only be gained by obtaining only ACCA or AAT qualifications, and that ICB is a perfectly viable option.
Except that they either need to stop at trial balance or bite the bullet and go the same way as the IFA moving away from being a bookkeeping organisation (IFA used to be the Institute of Bookkeepers) to an accountancy one adopting the full IFAC code of practice.
If you want to offer full accounting services direct to the public then you need to follow the same criteria of at least the AAT over extended periods of signed off prior experience. Some who do the ICB qualification already have experience in practice and they must be regarded quite seperate to those who train but then offer services completely oblivious to what they do not know.
Ok, lets clarify here.
This reply responds to your post, it is not anti ICB
I as an independant moderator on a truly independant site do not adhere to the kings new clothes approach of saying everything is rosy in the garden when it is not.
I have in the past made comments in relation to the ICB which I feel have helped change some of the practices and policies of the ICB as lets not forget that the ICB is a comparitively new fledgling organisation and as such not everything that they did is gaining market position was done perfectly. Name an organisation that does get everything right from the offset.
Over the past week as stated in my first post above the ICB has been both complimented and someone (a business owner rather than a professional bookkeeper) advised to consider studying the ICB qualification.
Surely ging forwards that should be the focus of training companies. If someone wants to be an SME accountant then AAT. If someone owns a business but does not want to hire a bookkeeper then ICB.
There are many more small businesses than potential bookkeepers so as a training provider you should really be pushing that idea not least as in addition it shouldn't take you that much to be able to offer all of the AAT qualification so you could cover the whole of the SME market and make a lot of money out of it (and so could the ICB).
That basically follows the same logic as cloud companies that realise that it's more profitable to sell 100 individual copies of their software at a cheaper price than 1 copy able to handle 100 clients.
I am also not anti Brian but I will always defend this site against any who would throw mud at it.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Again, I think I "missed the trick": I was not aware that Brian was offering/selling courses.
I thought he was a beginner in bookkeeping. This is why I replied. I normally don't respond to any such advertisers.
I personally don't use this site as much to learn as to help others if I can, but I find that people who take part in discussions are genuinely trying to be helpful even if some of the questions posted here by bookkeepers indicate that those bookkeepers need to complete training before they should be taking on clients. I don't think it is fair on clients. This is my personal view.
I use it to both help where I can and ask questions where I need help. Even those fully trained will not be averse to asking questions and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Like you, I can't recall where any of the posters have been disparaging to those undertaking courses or those who are now in practice. I see Brian offers ICB and AAT courses, so is it students from one of those two bodies in particular Brian, or both?
Hi John,
I really did not mean to say that fully trained bookkeepers&accountants must know everything and I agree that there is nothing wrong with asking questions when you have them.
What I was saying in my original message was that I think some people are trying to use the site to get basic training in Sage/bookkeeping, which I think is wrong. But luckily for such people, I am not in charge here
-- Edited by JulieS on Thursday 26th of November 2015 11:13:34 AM
Again, I think I "missed the trick": I was not aware that Brian was offering/selling courses. I thought he was a beginner in bookkeeping. This is why I replied. I normally don't respond to any such advertisers.
It's in his signature, but if you're using your phone you won't have seen that.
Re: your other post, I think I misread your response to Brian so apologies.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
However, there are other ways when one may feel unwelcome. For example, Ive spoken to many ICB qualified students who see on a regular basis on here how they are only good enough to work to Trial Balance,
If you want to call yourself a bookkeeper then bookkeeping ends at trial balance. Everything beyond that is accountancy.
Isn't bookkeeping just one strand of accountancy though? You could say that everything up to trial balance is accountancy because, in essence, bookkeeping is accountancy. hmmm??
Hi. I haven't posted on here for ages as i don't feel confident enough to do so and just lack of time but I do try to have a quick look a couple of times a week when I can. I would just like to say a couple of things.
The times that I have posted questions on here and asked for advice I have received helpful responses and in my opinion this is a really friendly and helpful site and is not as stuffy as other forums where I would not even consider posting a question for fear of being shot down in flames.
I have stopped studying with ICB and switched to AAT. This was mainly as when applying for jobs and speaking to people no one had heard of the ICB so I find it hard to believe that where a job has been asking for AAT qualifications someone who only has ICB qualifications has been given the job. While I am not saying that this is untrue I am just pointing out that this is not the experience and attitudes that I have came across . I would also just like to point out that I am not saying In any way that ICB qualifications are worthless as they are not as they do give a good knowledge I just feel that the ICB still has a huge mountain to climb in getting the qualifications recognised so that they are on par with the other major bodies.
I would actually refer to bookkeeping as the foundations of accountancy rather than a seperate strand of it.
There is mention of bookkeeping by the FRC that agrees with the the ACCA definition that bookkeeping is a seperately definable profession that ends at trial balance plus VAT work and Payroll.
That definition actually makes pre practice certificate ACCA people more bookkeepers than ICB people as the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants only allow members to perform bookkeeping services where the Institute of Certified Bookkeepers allows its members to offer accounting services.
How mixed up is that!
At the end of the day we're all in it together and it's just a matter of ensuring that people of whatever body are equiped with the knowledge base to support the services that they offer.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Well put Stephen and I think some excellent points that echo my own thoughts.
On the confidence front find a subject that you know a lot about and when a post comes up asking about it just go for it.
Even if the usual suspects on the site disagree with your interpretation we discuss things professionally and if someone gives an incomplete or potentially incorrect answer they will still come away from the experience of contributing to a thread a lot more knowledgable which will feed into the success of their business.
Looking forwards to chatting in some of the technical debates.
kindest regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you all for replying. Ill ignore the personal jibes and try to give an idea of where I am coming from.
Firstly, I completely agree that the professional support provided here is excellent and I am not indicating there is any hostility or general unfriendliness. However, there are other ways when one may feel unwelcome. For example, Ive spoken to many ICB qualified students who see on a regular basis on here how they are only good enough to work to Trial Balance, their qualification will not get them employment or that accountants wont entertain them. I see countless examples that would suggest that these statements are not accurate, but how could someone feel welcome here when their achievements and/or hopes are being tarnished on a semi-regular basis.
Ive advised students to apply for positions that have had AAT as a requirement and they've been successful. Id always encourage those going into practice to approach local accountants for work and Ive seen many forge valuable working relationships. If the opinions provided on here were taken into account these opportunities would have been passed by.
Hi Brian
In general, the advice that I see given here is that if you intend applying for work within accountancy, AAT and upwards is the best route. If you're looking to offer bookkeeping (and beyond) as a service then ICB with the relevant certificate is the best route. I think it's a fact that ICB is not recognised as an accountancy qualification anywhere near that of AAT. I'm pretty sure that if I was applying for jobs and listed ICB the majority of applications would be chucked out at that point. So I think it would be grossly unfair for someone on this site to reccomend ICB as opposed to AAT in that situation. That's not in any way disparaging to ICB. They are primarily a bookkeeping qualification not generally recognised in industry. If ICB want to change that perception then they need to talk to the industry. AAT is on the bottom rung of accountancy and there's no reason why ICBAT (1) can't join them, especially now they offer a certificate that allows qualified students to do SA returns.
I've also seen advice given on this forum to go for ICB, as it fitted in with what they wanted to achieve. Horses for courses if you'll forgive the pun. However YMMV so if you can point me to specific examples of ICB folk feeling unloved here I'm happy to review my opinion.
(1) Institute of Certified Bookkeepers and Accounting Technicians
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Hi. I haven't posted on here for ages as i don't feel confident enough to do so and just lack of time but I do try to have a quick look a couple of times a week when I can. I would just like to say a couple of things. The times that I have posted questions on here and asked for advice I have received helpful responses and in my opinion this is a really friendly and helpful site and is not as stuffy as other forums where I would not even consider posting a question for fear of being shot down in flames. I have stopped studying with ICB and switched to AAT. This was mainly as when applying for jobs and speaking to people no one had heard of the ICB so I find it hard to believe that where a job has been asking for AAT qualifications someone who only has ICB qualifications has been given the job. While I am not saying that this is untrue I am just pointing out that this is not the experience and attitudes that I have came across . I would also just like to point out that I am not saying In any way that ICB qualifications are worthless as they are not as they do give a good knowledge I just feel that the ICB still has a huge mountain to climb in getting the qualifications recognised so that they are on par with the other major bodies.
Thanks Stephen
Hi Stephen
I find the original post here somewhat odd, but am pleased to see that its response in part has a good outcome - in that at least it has encouraged you personally to write a response and I hope that the reply you got might encourage a few others to do the same, as well as encouraging you to post more. I know that lack of confidence feeling very well as that is exactly how I felt when I first started out on the forum but no questions are considered too 'daft' or 'simple' (to use other people's expressions). We all have to start somewhere and what is easy to some, is not easy to us all.
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
However, there are other ways when one may feel unwelcome. For example, Ive spoken to many ICB qualified students who see on a regular basis on here how they are only good enough to work to Trial Balance,
If you want to call yourself a bookkeeper then bookkeeping ends at trial balance. Everything beyond that is accountancy.
Isn't bookkeeping just one strand of accountancy though? You could say that everything up to trial balance is accountancy because, in essence, bookkeeping is accountancy. hmmm??
Bookkeeping is the foundation of Accountancy and Accountants therefore need to understand bookkeeping. But bookkeepers do not need to know Accountancy and a little knowledge can be dangerous.
Well thats just part of my take on it.
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Ive not posted on here for a while, but have been asked to pose the following question, really aimed at the administrators of BKN (Steve, etc), rather than the moderator of this forum.
In the home page of the BKN website there is the following statement:
Since 2006, the BKN forum has become the UK's most visited, and trusted, online discussion forum for book-keepers to debate issues, and to provide help and support to one another.
We are an independent resource for book-keepers from all walks of life, whether self-employed or employed, qualified by exam or qualified by experience, or those just starting out. All book-keepers are welcome at BKN!
Now, based on the views of a select few within this forum, we have a large number of students and practicing bookkeepers who do not feel welcome and feel that their hard work and achievements are being greatly under-valued and misrepresented. So the question is, does this forum still fit in with the ideals that BKN were hoping for?
Hi Brian
I do find this post a little odd in that it is directed at Steve, who Im sure you must know from past history, doesnt post on here - so therefore why would you not pose this in an email to him if its of such great importance to you? Then you go on to say it its not really for the moderator - but I am sure you must also know from past history that such a question would absolutely be answered by Shaun. Rightfully so.
I gather from your 'large number of students' comment that you have either taken a poll or asked the question, or even just listened to anecdotal evidence? I would suggest your comments might be of concern if it was said by those people themselves rather than by a third party as its all a bit subjective. BUT I have to also add - how do you access such information from practicing bookkeepers when you are a training company and once trained they are no longer on your books?
I gather from the rest of the sentence then that you are referring to ICBers? I think Shaun and the others who have already responded have covered off this pretty well, but for me I would just add that the ICB do have their own forum and despite being a practicing bookkeeper I cannot access large chunks of it so maybe I should complain about being unwelcome on theirs. Not only that but I have seen ICBers who have moved from their own forum to BKN because they always get answers on here whereas Ive seen many questions unanswered on the ICB forum. Never mind some of the responses I have seen that have been factually incorrect because they do not seem to have a moderator who will fly in and correct an error as is the case on here. In addition there have been quite a few comments from former ICBers, some long term members, who have moved away towards IAB/AAT or both. I wonder why that is? I would suggest that anyone who feels that the BKN are unwelcoming come on here and say so, with specifics which can be debated on an open forum. Although as Ive said on numerous occasions it is very easy to mis-interpret what is said on these forums, as much as it is in text/email and wouldnt life be easier if we could just have a real conversation! But at least its a start point.
Turning to the training/exams themselves - I do not think they are undervalued on here at all. There are a LOT of ICBers on here who contribute fully and have helped many people out on here. The debate about the quality of the exams and training and whether someone should take ICB/IAB/AAT/ACCA etc has long been debated by you and others, over at the 3 years that I have been on here and will no doubt be long debated for years to come. I only know what I have seen in my experience and more so from having my son enter this arena, with regards to the job market, what Accountants are looking for. Where I live at the moment you cannot even get a job at a firm of Accountants unless you have achieved year 3 of the AAT. It is very different in different parts of the UK. More importantly I dont think you should ever answer a question based on ''I want to be a bookkeeper so what exams should I take'' - send people in one direction, which is what a lot of schools/training companies, so called career advisors do.......its should be about finding out what that person has as their end game, but then actually probing deeper to ascertain if they have the potential to reach higher than what they believe is actually out there and available to them. Had someone not done this for me back in the day I would not have had the fabulous career I had in Corporate because I didnt even know of its existence and it was such a closed shop, male dominated area! So you will have seen a lot of questions in such posts to ascertain certain information to enable people to be guided in the most appropriate direction, so they dont waste time and frankly money doing something that might not get them where they want or can be. Not everyone wants to be, nor is capable of being at the top table, but we should be encouraging those that have the potential but maybe dont realise it yet. That does not mean we diminish those who wish to do pure bookkeeping, absolutely not. But guidance is person specific and budget specific in some cases.
I have raised this before with you Brian, but I think you and Ideal could get a lot more out of this site if you contributed to providing technical answers. I know last time we talked about this you expressed a view that you were far too busy to do so - is that something that has changed? We are all ultra busy people on here but even just finding that little bit of time to assist people all helps this site be the best it can be and is very rewarding on a personal level.
Have to also say - I feel unwelcome on AccountingWeb occasionally but certainly dont let that stop me from posting as the only person who would lose out then would be me!
Sorry for any typos =- lost my glasses as Ive moved out of my office whilst its being re-furbed!
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
