Now, I read the article and it makes some valid points but I fear misses one in that not all ICB bookkeepers are created equal either. The same arguement used to suggest that non ICB bookkeers appearing on the same list as ICB one's gives credence to members of other professional bodies (or those without one) is flawed and avoids the obvious fact that if all ICB bookkeepers are the top of the tree for bookkeeping why do so many of them need to ask for advice from other bookkeepers who may or may not be qualified with the ICB or indeed any professional body.
One could equally say that an ICB member appearing in the same list as a UK bookkeeper of the year list gives the ICB member credence... Looking back through the list of winners (see the above awards website) I can see no current ICB bookkeepers who have won that award. And I do not see any of those winners clamouring to get themselves on the same lists as ICB members.
I also find the whole story about only ICB people know what PII is rather condescending to the many, many professional bookkeepers out there. I take it that the ICB did not contact any members of the IAB or AAT who offer bookkeeping services?
The fact is that there are some very very good ICB bookkeepers and some not so good. Same with any professional body (well, except the ACCA as we're all wonderful ). You don't need a bit of paper to be a great bookkeeper. Not all ICB bookkeepers do a good job and not all non ICB bookkeepers do a bad one.
Just felt that needed to be said to bring some balance back for the majority of bookkeepers out there working hard doing an excellent job for their clients and yet still having to put up with being the recipient of professional body mud slinging derived marketing.
Judge people as individuals not based on the bit of paper that they hold (or don't) but rather the job that they do for their clients.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
On first reading, I thought that piece was elitist nonsense.
On second reading, I still thought the same - but spotted some very subtle qualifications, ambiguous terms, subtle changes in terms used, and so on, which offer a "get out of jail free" if challenged.
Speaking as someone who is only qualified by experience (over 25 years of it) I'd just like to say thanks, Garry for being very careful not to directly slander me, and merely letting the reader (leading him to?) infer that I'm an inept cowboy.
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
I've just realised: My first day of work at a firm of accountants was actually towards the end of September 1985. I can now say it's over thirty years!
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
Shamus wrote:I also find the whole story about only ICB people know what PII is rather condescending to the many, many professional bookkeepers out there. I take it that the ICB did not contact any members of the IAB or AAT who offer bookkeeping services?
Pretty much agree with your comments Shaun, but, to be fair, the article does say that the ICB contacted unqualified bookkeepers, and the claim was they didn't have it, rather than didn't know about it.
In a recent ad-hoc telephone survey of unqualified bookkeepers, only one of the ten to whom ICB managed to speak claimed to have Professional Indemnity Insurance (PII), thereby putting both themselves and their clients at risk.
However, I do take their statement with a pinch of salt.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
the part of the article that I was referring to came later where apparently one of the ten questioned said they had PII but upon closer questioning it transpired that it was Public Liability rather than Personal Indemnity.
Thats what I meant about being condescending in implying that non ICB bookkeepers do not understand what PII is.
I do wonder what tactics they employed to elicit the information that they did from the bookkeeepers being questioned.
Also how many do you think that they had to phone before they managed to find ten that they could ridicule as being representative of all non ICB bookkeepers!
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I saw that bit but just thought the person had maybe misunderstood the question. Like you say, it depends how the question was asked. Maybe they all thought the question was about Public Liability and that was the one person who had it. I would find that more likely than 10 out of 10 not having PII.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Agree there are some valid points - high standards being one, but his organisation does not hold the monopoly on that!
By the way - I am not criticising any of the ICB members, just the team that run it!
My issues - not least and in short (as Im busy) and no particular order:-
He is clearly trying to build his business empire and is lobbying to his own ends
He should not generalise - not all bookkeepers without exams/letters after their names are bad, just as not all bookkeepers with letters after their name are good.
Where did they 'find' 10 bookkeepers to question about PII? Never mind - who would answer such a question on a phone call from some random bod.
Questioning 10 people is not a representative sample. Come on - get real.
One person mistook PII for PLI ! Really?! How did they manage to find that out - did they actually see the documentation or was the person on the other end of the phone playing a wind up just as I would if I received such cold calling nonsense.
the ICB is not a GLOBAL community as he is infering! Half of the Accountants in the UK and even less of the businessworld have heard of them, never mind the rest of the globe. Although 10/10 for blue sky dreaming!
Having no exams doe NOT make someone unqualified. The definition of 'qualified' is not JUST having the 'exam' qualifications to do something, but having the necessary skill, experience or knowledge to do a particular job or activity.
I agree with Shaun and Vince's comments - so no need to repeat them here.
But in addition to the list above - fundamentally he is totally wrong about ALL such 'unqualified' bookkeepers. It does depend on their experience and how it was gained. Having worked under Accountants as Vince has or having worked in other areas of Finance or having related but not specifically the list of exams he expects means that people can get just as much knowledge and indeed, often more, than is required to do the role. I do wonder how we all managed to be bookkeepers before the advent of any kind of exams. Exam taking to prove knowledge in this field is a relatively new phenomenan, especially when you consider how long double entry bookkeeping has been around. exam taking certainly does NOT always mean that the exam taker knows enough to ply their trade - in the words of someone I respect who has achieved an elevated position in the field of Accountancy.....they do not guarantee experience, professionalism, honesty and integrity. At the higher levels they can certainly start you and get you well on the way on that journey. At other levels, exams just prove you learnt enough to get through the exam - they are no guarantee of the knowledge required to do the job.
Interestingly one of the most respected Accountants on Aweb mentioned recently that in 40 years he has never worked with a member of any bookkeeping body yet he has worked with some 'brilliant' bookkeepers.
I did find the comment ''Apparently several ICB members paid an annual subscription to be listed on a website and exhibition stand run by a company in Shropshire that it appears was cold-calling from the ICB practice list. I have yet to hear from anyone that they actually derived any business by this method'' quite odd, a bit misplaced in the article and a wee bit funny - does that not just make those people very naive to not question and fully understand what they are signing up to, before they sign up to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In Garrys own words from further up the article they '' merely presumed or didnt think to ask.''
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
). You don't need a bit of paper to be a great bookkeeper. Not all ICB bookkeepers do a good job and not all non ICB bookkeepers do a bad one.
