ICB or IAB - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

bk08 · Newbie

ICB or IAB

abacus12345 · Guru

For employment I'd advise the AAT. I used Kaplan, no issues. Can't comment on other providers. For SE I'd advise IAB - Personal opinions....

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Simon,

I concur with Johnny on the employment but things have moved somewhat on the self employment side of the fence.

If you want to keep open the option of employment then as Johnny states accept no substitute for AAT (neither IAB or ICB are genrally recognised qualifications by employers (industry or practice)).

I believe that the advice on self employment though has now beome superceded as the AAT now have a bookkeeping practice certificate.

For AAT training try either First Intuition or Premier training.

For more discussion in relation to the AAT bookkeeping qualification see this thread : www.book-keepers.org.uk/t62031205/new-aat-bookkeeping-qualification-aatqb-designation-bookkeep/

HTH,

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Simon
AAT /AAT bookkeeping qual. Any of the three trainers mentioned. First Intuition have won awards on here - see banner at the top of the page.

abacus12345 · Guru

Yes ive noticed the AAT offer this new form of licence. Ive not read much into it yet, small print etc. Could well be huge, ICB should be fearful. The IAB still carries QCF so, in my opinion, at that level, its pretty equal - all comes down to who provides the better support.

bk08 · Newbie

Thanks for the replies, might either do AAT Bookkeeping or AAT Level 1 Access.
But undecided, depends on work and how much time I have to study?

Thanks once again.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Worth noting that not all AAT qualifications are created equal.

The AAT qualification that looks good on the CV is the full AAT qualification. It has 3 levels (II, III & IV) at the end of which it is possible to move up to MAAT.

You will need to find 10-20 hours per week to study (a couple of hours a day six days a week would be perfect) and once you start down this path you never stop studying even after passing the exams as there is always something changing, something else to learn, something that you need to revise as you haven't used it for so long.

Expect AAT to take about 2 years. Some, with a lot of devotion, do it quicker, other take longer but 2 years seems to me to be around the average.

Good luck with your studies, remeber to keep us all informed of your progress.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

p.s. remember the old line that anything that is worth attaining will be difficult to attain. AAT is not so bad but it will challenge you especially at level IV.

abacus12345 · Guru

Very true Shaun. I think much of what something is worth, is what we actually do with it. What we do after the qualification is more important. Do we trust just what we learn from the syllabus, or do we continue the research. The certificate is the beginning. The research and knowledge is equal to how much you want something. This certainly isn't a profession we can bluff, and last long in! The learning never ends, even for Chartereds or CIOT members. All starts again from a new finance act lol.

bk08 · Newbie

Well done some more researching and had a look indepth at AAT, ICB & IAB.
Never realised there was so much info out on the web.

Will wait till September after my holiday to start AAT L1 but will be back possibly to ask more questions!

You cant get rid of me that easy!!!!!

Mike W · Veteran Member

Good on you Simon

I'm sure AAT will serve you well...

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

<< Deleted User >> wrote

Just wanted to add to this that as an AAT lecturer, an IAB lecturer and a qualified accountant, I disagree with the leaning towards the AAT qualifications on this forum. AAT is a solid qualification but in my humble opinion it is most suited to industry and employment rather than self-employment as a bookkeeper for small businesses . For this I don't believe you can beat IAB. The specification is very relevant to 'real' bookkeeping for small businesses and the exams test this knowledge well. I also value the support they give self-employed bookkeepers whereas I find the AAT rather guarded and self-protective

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You have put the same on two posts!

-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 17th of July 2016 12:44:24 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

<< Deleted user >> wrote

Does it matter really?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I just didnt know if you had realised that you had done that, given you are new to the site. But yes it does matter - people do not want to read the same posts twice. There is no need for it.

-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 17th of July 2016 12:45:55 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

<< Deleted user>> wrote :

Oh please get over yourself!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You have got a bit of attitude there havent you. How very odd and a great start to your use of a forum - how to win friends and influence people - not. I think you need to get over yourself and calm down a little.

-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 17th of July 2016 12:47:29 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

<< Deleted user >> wrote:

Oh please get over yourself!!!!

I expect a full grovelling appology to Joanne immediately or you will be banned from further posting. I would ban you out of hand immediately and delete all of your posts but I want to give you chance to respond when I point out to you how wrong you are about the AAT in the post that you repeat twice.

For future reference assuming that you manage to appease the site and Joanne espechially with your response you are expected to talk to members here respectfully or not at all. Conversation can get heated on occassion between long standing members but I do not expect a complete newbie to come on here responding to someone who goes out of herr way to help people to understand this profession after training companies have turned out people who can pass exams but have no idea about how to do the job.

-- Edited by Shamus on Sunday 17th of July 2016 12:49:22 PM

abacus12345 · Guru

I find it hard to believe that a fully qualified, experienced accountant - who is also a lecturer, or course tutor, would speak to people like that. AAT is the better qualification - end of. For any business, no qualification on its own is enough.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Johnny,

been a while since you last posted. glad to see you and just importantly citizen smith is back again. smile

abacus12345 · Guru

Hi

Thanks -

I heard BKN had become a Pokemon gym lol!!

Hope you're good

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Thanks Shaun. I was mildly amused by the exchange but agree with Johnny, its not very professional and certainly not a good advert. Clearly the poster doesnt have the good grace to apologise given the latest request to show her how to delete her account today. Shame as I would've relished a proper debate on the back of your other response. I do actually rate the IAB, but we all know that bookkeepers generally no longer stop at trial balance given the market, opportunities and perceptions have changed so much. Plus as Ive said before - why restrict people - they should be encouraged to progress to the best of their abilities. Anyway thats a chat for lots of other days on the back of numerous other postings we will get on this subject.

Welcome back Johnny - good to see you and looking forward to catching up on your escapades in other posts.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Strictly from the point of view of ICB v's IAB, I come down on the IAB side for a number of reasons. It's OFQUAL and SQA recognised for one, which ICB is not. The management processes and decision making is much more transparent with IAB (if that's of importance to you).

In terms of recognition, if we stick to these two and ignore AAT (we're not sure what the level 3 practice licence will look like yet and could be quite restrictive) then IAB has certainly been around longer. ICB has the greater declared membership, especially for members in practice. The support from both organisations for members in practice is extremely limited. IAB recognise this and are trying to address it through working with others.

Ultimately, it'll come down to personal choice.

Hope this helps,

Kris

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

agree totally over the academic recognition but I fear that I cannot agree over the AAT.

As you know under AAT whilst training one can offer services direct to the public without a practice certificate tso long as you have MLR through HMRC and make no mention of AAT in one's advertising materials or hold oneself out to be AAT to clients. For that reason and as level II AAT covers all of bookkeeping I do not see that it can be discounted from the equation.

I know that there are people who study AAT and practice under different banners (IAB or ICB) in order to meet their MLR requirements and let clients know that they are at least qualified with someone.

Do you know where you can find the membership / members in practice numbers for IAB and ICB?

I fear that at the moment much is down to trusting what we are told rather than seeing independantly verified data in relation to practicing membership numbers.

Certainly though I would be surprised if combined they came anywhere close to AAT numbers.

talk later,

Shaun.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

You're right Shaun, as AAT you can practice using HMRC or another body for MLR, I was referring only to the new bookkeeping license they are (or have just) launched. I'll be interested to see what comes of that.

In terms of the numbers, it seems to be a closely guarded secret. We have an idea of what they might be from the organisations members directories, or previous dealings, but you could be right that AAT have more. Having said that, it's not always a numbers game.

IAB, for example, have a small staff team. That means if you're looking for a more personal service they might be the right choice. It's horses for courses.

None of the organisations focus particularly well on bookkeepers in practice though, by their own admissions.

Kris

Leger · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Hi

Thanks -

I heard BKN had become a Pokemon gym lol!!

Hope you're good

Hey Johnny, welcome back mate! Oh my goodness, Pokemon? I never even played it as a child! In the last week I've found out my nephew and my friend's 21 year old son play it Apparently though, it's a good way to get peeps out and about their neighbourhood, so it maybe it's not a bad thing.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

Hi Kris,

AAT Level 3 qualifieds and above can register as AAT Qualified Bookkeepers.

AATQBs are allowed to practise in the following areas without prior experience:

Bookkeeping
Financial accounts and accounts preparation for sole traders
VAT
Computerised accountancy systems

Link here: AAT Licensed Members

David.

abacus12345 · Guru

It surprises me that, as per David's post, together with an unnamed chartered body (albeit you must not mention your affiliation) allow you to offer VAT -

Now to me, and i'm sure you will agree, VAT is not as simple as you originally believe it to be.

I'd say it is in fact no different to IT and CT -

Perhaps it is because it would be tricky to offer a bookkeeping service without being able to offer VAT..

For what it is worth, I'm all for it, if you're confident enough.

I still don't understand the logic mind :)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Looking at it the wrong way Johnny, if the bookkeeping bodies can offer VAT then why would those with accountancy qualifications be restricted on offering those services?

I agree, how can one offer bookkeeping without offering VAT services.

The one that surprised me in the longer list for AAT accountants (rather than the bookkeeping licence detailed here) was Inheritance tax.

To my mind Corporation tax is generally the most complex of those you mention although when as you say, VAT can also get horribly complex espechially where foreign sales and purchases get brought into the equation.

All in all non of it is easy and it's also seldom straight forwards but at least all of those permitted to do it by there professional bodies at least have professional bodies as there are way too many out there completely untrained who complete VAT returns not realising the potential pitfalls of their actions.

abacus12345 · Guru

Shamus wrote:
Looking at it the wrong way Johnny, if the bookkeeping bodies can offer VAT then why would those with accountancy qualifications be restricted on offering those services?

No I agree with where you're coming from there, where I'm coming from is if the body will allow you to offer VAT, why not allow the member to offer IT, as the AAT now offer this new scheme to compete with the IAB/ICB (IMO)
I haven't read too much into it - but if I take David's post (Sorry David ;) ) as being how it works - The level 3 MIP can offer the self employed man / woman a A to Y service, leaving either the owner / bookkeeper to use an accountant for the final stage of the service.
I'm seeing margins being cut into here. I know traditionally bookkeeping, or at least bookkeepers stopped at TB, yet being able to offer final accounts is by definition, accounting (As we all know)

All I'm getting at is, if the body is willing to trust its members with VAT, why not IT? There are simple SA returns, together with complex VAT returns. To counter my own argument, AAT do offer VAT at level 3 and obviously the two tax units aren't until level 4, if you opt to study them.

Having said all that, the qualification is only a tear drop in the ocean in any case compared to the acts and FRSs - Until Chartered, even then the learning will never end.