Sage... - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

abacus12345 · Guru

Sage...

VinceH · Expert

I may not have read the thread in question (the rest of it after I last commented, anyway - if it's the one I'm thinking of), so I'm speculating that what you're trying to do is have Sage's balance sheet reflect sales ledger accounts that are paid in advance as current liabilities with normal balances as shown as current assets.

In which case, at first glance you're basically doing the right thing - but the only gotcha is that you should not be posting journals into 1100 (though I don't think Sage will prevent it - can't remember). The reason is that posting a journal into that code will mean its balance will no longer match the aged debtors balance, but it should. The aged debtors balance, after all, should be a breakdown of what's in that nominal account.

Instead, as well as creating your deferred income account, also create a corresponding one at 1101 - and on the chart of accounts, make the trade debtors range cover 1100 and 1101.

For each journal where you're talking about posting to 1100, you can post it to 1101 instead.

At each of your steps, then (skipping the account creation, just the postings):

2) POA £10,000

Balance sheet looks like:

1100 Cr £10,000
1200 Dr £10,000

4) Dr 1101 & Cr 2103 £10,000

Gives:

1100 Cr £10,000
1101 Dr £10,000
1200 Dr £10,000
2103 Cr £10,000

(Trade debtors are nil, and we have £10,000 in liabilities)

5) SI for £8,000

Gives:

1100 Cr £2,000
1101 Dr £10,000
1200 Dr £10,000
2103 Cr £10,000
4000 Cr £8,000

(Trade debtors are now -£8,000 and the liabilities still show £10,000 until we fix it...)

7) Dr 2103, Cr 1101 £8,000

Gives:

1100 Cr £2,000
1101 Dr £2,000
1200 Dr £10,000
2103 Cr £2,000
4000 Cr £8,000

(Trade debtors are now nil and liabilities are £2,000 - it's fixed.)

8) Refund the £2000

Result:

1101 Dr £2,000
1200 Dr £8,000
2103 Cr £2,000
4000 Cr £8,000

(Trade debtors are now £2,000, as are liabilities until we fix it...)

9) Dr 2103, Cr 1101 £2000.

Result:

1200 Dr £8,000
4000 Cr £8,000

(It's fixed. We're now reflecting the net amount received of £8000 in the bank, and the same amount invoiced as sales.)

Actually, journaling into 1100 wasn't the only gotcha. Probably just a typo but you switched from 2103 to 2301. That's a bit of a gotcha as well. :)

abacus12345 · Guru

Thanks Vince -

The typo on here actually transferred into sage....first play with corrections.

Excellent info Vince, thanks.

Aside from me being incorrect in journalling 1100 - I assume I was on the wrong tracks as the entries are so vast in quantity.

My excuse (Lack of knowledge) in regards to 1100 - is that I couldn't think of anywhere else to make the opposite entry :)

But no, seriously, thanks for reworking that for me.

-- Edited by abacus12345 on Tuesday 31st of May 2016 09:28:22 AM

abacus12345 · Guru

Ok - Onwards to VAT...

I've created a couple of invoices so my accounts are currently -

2200 £1500 (Sales tax)
2201 £1020 (Purchase tax)

Now before I perform a VAT rec, I grab the sales/purchase/and company nominal day books - All looks good.

Journal

DR 2202 VAT liability a/c £1020 CR Purchase Tax a/c £1020
Dr 2200 Sales tax £1500 Cr 2202 VAT liability £1500.

There is then a liability of £480.

Print day books for future reference / evidence of figures

Rec and submit VAT return.

I assume entries are then

DR 2202 £480
CR 1200 £480

(opposites if repayments)

Thank you

VinceH · Expert

All looks fine to me - but you shouldn't need to do any of the VAT transactions manually; Sage has mechanisms to do it for you.

The journal from the sales/purchase tax accounts to the liability account should be available from the VAT return after you've 'reconciled' it - and or from the context menu on the VAT return (under the 'VAT tasks' sub-menu). And the payment (or refund) can be posted from the same place.

When you execute those VAT tasks from within Sage, the transactions it processes are pretty much as you've described.

(Sorry, I'm being imprecise with my descriptions of where these options are - no Sage open, let alone no VAT return in progress.)

abacus12345 · Guru

Hi Vince,

Thanks!

So in effect, by reconciling I'm able to skip that particular journal, via virtue of Sage automation?

One last query... :)

Sales returns...

If I've invoiced Mr X for his goods, and he hasn't yet paid I can issue a credit note to clear down some of the balance -

Should Mr X have already paid all of his invoice, is it just a case of Dr Sales returns - Cr Bank, or even Dr Sales Cr Bank (Not strictly perfect!)

If that is the case, how do I allocate this information against the customer? For instance in six months time I would like to be able to see that he received a refund from a past purchase. That in itself isn't an accountancy/bookkeeping issue as such, more of a 'well I can see you already received a refund for XYZ in January'

Thank you 'very' much :)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Ok - Onwards to VAT...

I've created a couple of invoices so my accounts are currently -

2200 £1500 (Sales tax)
2201 £1020 (Purchase tax)

Now before I perform a VAT rec, I grab the sales/purchase/and company nominal day books - All looks good.

Journal

DR 2202 VAT liability a/c £1020 CR Purchase Tax a/c £1020
Dr 2200 Sales tax £1500 Cr 2202 VAT liability £1500.

There is then a liability of £480.

Print day books for future reference / evidence of figures

Rec and submit VAT return.

I assume entries are then

DR 2202 £480
CR 1200 £480

(opposites if repayments)

Thank you

Hi Johnny

Vince has answered so no point me adding nothing of value. Except to say (as Vince hasnt got his sage open), that he of course is spot on re the VAT. Not sure which version of sage instant you are on, so you may find this in a different place.

Go to VAT module - might be on left with its own heading, or click on nominals on left and then look on left near the top. When you click on this it takes you to the VAT return. Enter dates of the actual return, mostly I would say click yes to prior unreconciled VAT items (but care....some clients havent done that and it could cause an almighty mess!), check. Press print - this will bring up the VAT return itself, print ready for filing online, but also click on email - even if you havent got email configured it will save to an email. then you can copy and paste it somewhere. Do the same routine again and get the 'detailed' report. (I say do this in case you cant access the saved data from the sage files itself in future (has happened a few times to me so this is a good back up). Check reports. Use 'Archive' button - ie this will save the report. Then click reconcile and yes to 'flag transactions'. This will then show the VAT reconciled date and the fact they are reconciled on sage in any future searches etc that you do.

Then go back to that left hadn side and you will (hopefully) find the VAT wizard - run that, making sure you change the date on it to the last day of the actual VAT period you are running. The amounts in the auto journal on the screen should represent the same as in the VAT return and will therefore process the journal you were talking about doing manually.

If you have v21 onwards the screens will be in a slightly different way with a different feel, but achieve the same thing.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Hi Vince,

Thanks!

So in effect, by reconciling I'm able to skip that particular journal, via virtue of Sage automation?

One last query... :)

Sales returns...

If I've invoiced Mr X for his goods, and he hasn't yet paid I can issue a credit note to clear down some of the balance -

Should Mr X have already paid all of his invoice, is it just a case of Dr Sales returns - Cr Bank, or even Dr Sales Cr Bank (Not strictly perfect!)

If that is the case, how do I allocate this information against the customer? For instance in six months time I would like to be able to see that he received a refund from a past purchase. That in itself isn't an accountancy/bookkeeping issue as such, more of a 'well I can see you already received a refund for XYZ in January'

Thank you 'very' much :)

Hi Johnny

if you do a credit note for sales returns, then you either use it to reduce a future invoice - so link it to that invoice, via the Bank screen - customer payment tab, allocate credit note in full, enter amount of credit note against the invoice, make sure your allocations balance is nil, save. Job done.

If you dont wish to allocate it to a future invoice and issue a payment to the customer ---> go to your 'refund's option (could be a wizard on top bar, or on the left NB Under the 'customer' options tab depending on software version) - will ask which customer, date of refund, what it is a refund of ie against a credit note, or a payment on account, so pick your credit note, then put a description in - include any cheque numbers/as much detail as you can (not many characters available here) - as that helps when you view it in future and when you come to do your Bank rec.

You can then see that refund on the customer's own account.

HTH

Sorry - rushing responses here so hope Ive not missed anything.

Do you have a practice module in your version?

Have you heard my mantra - before you do anything back it up, test your back up, have a go, if it doesnt work, restore and try again

abacus12345 · Guru

Hey,

Thanks for that -

I like what you did there, create a SC, then use the wizard. Makes sense.

That then leaves a customer trail. As I say it is just for future reference purposes.

Yes I have the practice area - at the moment I'm just playing in general, trying to match what I know, with how sage works.

The mantra - I will start using now, even though it is false data, it is best to form good habits early on.

P.S

It isn't a rushed response, I understand entirely what you mean :)

Thank you :)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

I could send you some work to do for real!!!!!! I have it oozing out of my bloody house. The 'staff' are on holiday. Now there is another thing I shoudl add to that other post - not only do they want paying, but they want lunch breaks and bloody holidays too!!!!!!!!!!!
PS - I dont think you can do backups for practice data, but often people learn that mantra by forgetting to do a backup and then having to re-work it all. Although it doesnt always make them remember. Or is that just me?!!!!!!!

abacus12345 · Guru

Ha ha!!! Yes, no I've created a practice company inside the 'real sage' area - I really like Sage - I was put off initially by having a play with Sage One. Chalk and cheese

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

OMG Sage one is really naff naff naff. Hate hate hate. So piggin SLOWWWWWWWWWW. Never mind the rest of the rubbish.

abacus12345 · Guru

Totally agree!!

What sort of £££ we talking for Sage 50 for multiple companies?

Thanks

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Depends which one you buy. Also -at one point if you were ringing Sage they were refusing to sell it on perpetual licence. They would only sell it on monthly pay as you go which is extortionate in comparison. Even the Accountants club they were doing only on monthly, with fees starting at around £60pm and I think that was pre VAT for 5 clients (back in 2014 or 15). That said Ive heard rumours that so many people walked or were up in arms that sage have done a bit of an about turn on this although I dont think you will find it easily on their website. Not sure - havent checked.

Ive just bought a package for a client, cost c£1100, although this did include 12 months support which I wouldnt normally get, but they have networked systems, plus a MAJOR fault on their existing 2006 version of sage which needed some considerable work doing with it, so for them it was essential. Plus its the top version - ie Sage PRO, multi company, multi user (about 6) licence.

Best is if you know a firm of Accountants who have got the Accountants club and might be able to sell you a copy using their discounts, but passing the discounts on to you. The discounts can range from 15-50% so timing it is the key, except you dont know when you ask what the discounts are going to be and sometimes you cant wait - like the client I mentioned above. I did get them 20% off.

Best bet would be to check with sage first, but a player out there who is still able to sell perpetual licences is SJ Software. Also I do have another contact that MIGHT get you a deal, but I would need to PM you their details, so let me know if you need them.

I still use sage from 2008 for some clients, so perpetual is the way to go for me!

In fact the 2006 version works fine up to a point, but data was corrupted somehow - before I took them on I must say. No way was that one my fault. Didnt help that no-one had taken a backup for 3 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!

abacus12345 · Guru

Hey,

Thanks for that.

Yes I'll drop you a PM if I do purchase. Thanks :)

Not sure whether this is a fair comparison but Quickbooks or Intuit whichever it is now! Are offering a deal on Amazon, multiple companies etc at a fraction of the price of Sage 50.

Now, is QB anywhere near the standard of Sage?

Do you think the price drop is due to the cloud? (I don't want to create another desktop V cloud debate - I created enough already lol)

I'm assuming that Sage is the gold standard in business, and in practice. I know VT gets a great rep mind.

You're obviously a fan of Sage, is it due to how it works, or was it your first foray into the accountancy software world?

I must admit I do like it, I can understand some folk maybe don't - price jumps out for a start lol.

VinceH · Expert

"So in effect, by reconciling I'm able to skip that particular journal, via virtue of Sage automation?"

You do have to *tell* Sage to carry out that bit of automation after hitting the reconcile button (either by choosing the relevant task in the window that appears, or via the context menu over the VAT return in the list) - but, yes. Forget the manual journals; they're *so* last decade. (Or last decade-ish - depending on when Sage added those functions!)

Joanne's answered the sales return stuff, so I'll go skip all that and go straight to:

"What sort of £££ we talking for Sage 50 for multiple companies?"

Suffice it to say some of us call it a "Sage Tax". I couldn't comment on their prices now because it's been a good few years since I last upgraded - and I suspect the version names are all different now (not to mention their 'subscription' approach to selling the software). But it *was* damned expensive.

abacus12345 · Guru

Thanks Vince.

So the smart move is to *try* to buy a sealed multi company version from the days before subscription...

I see the logic behind subscriptions, helps to combat piracy, well not much as it isn't entirely difficult, yet for the average Joe...

Subscriptions are so expensive, Sage is definitely up there, Adobe Photoshop, and others are up there -

Then again, I guess we can at least cancel a subscription, assuming there is no tie in. Still more expensive if you stick with the software though.

Same old story, you like the look of something, you then see the price

VinceH · Expert

It depends - I haven't looked, but for all I know Sage may have brought their prices right down and made it a lot less costly to use their software. Of course, in the same period, someone may have genetically modified porcine animals to have wings. ;)

Combating piracy might be one of the stated explanations for adopting a subscription model - but if so I'd be inclined to substitute the word 'excuses' for 'explanations'. The real reason is the desire to make end users pay, then pay again, then pay again, then pay again.

As well as to lock them in, so that they have to pay again, and again, and again, and again. Subscription software - be that on the desktop or clowny rubbish - is often called Saas; Software as a Service. I call it DaaPR; Data as a Protection Racket.

I know for a fact that it's not uncommon for people to buy a version of Sage, and stick with that version for as long as possible rather than upgrade each year - and the same applies with other software from other companies - and that means there is potentially a lot more revenue out there if those people can be made to stump up some readies more frequently. And the best way to do that is next time they want to upgrade, put them in a position where they can no longer do what they used to, and must instead pay an ongoing sub.

When Sage first adopted this model, I questioned the person (or persons) who run their Twitter feed - about what happens if the user decided not to continue using Sage, and wants to switch to something else, bearing in mind there is a legal requirement for books and records to be kept for a certain time after the fact.

twitter.com/askSageUKI/status/512535096792850432

"Hi, if the subscription is cancelled the data wouldn't be accessible. If cancelling subscription they should export or print data."

I pointed out it would be better for the software to become read-only.

The suggestion to export is laughable. I often point out (usually in a clowny context, but the same applies to desktop software) that with accounts data there is no simple export from one package, import to another, because they all do things differently, representing different things in different ways.

And Sage doesn't actually provide a meaningful export facility to start with (or didn't back then, things obviously might have changed) - you have to tweak an audit trail report to match your needs, and the notion of exporting is so unsupported that you can't even directly import that same data back into Sage itself without some modification.

Printing is an option, of course, (to PDF if you don't want to waste lots of paper) - but looking at print outs or PDFs is absolutely no match for drilling down into the raw data.

Umm.

What was the question again?

abacus12345 · Guru

For the older versions of Sage, is there still support and updates available as sort of a push service, or is it a case of forcing it to update through downloaded updates? The only downside I see to using older software, probably needlessly so, is the security aspects. I would imagine on the newer versions patches are quickly issued. It is the same situation for past versions?

VinceH · Expert

Up until the 2013 version (which is mine), the annual updates (if you bought them) were supplied on optical media. The only automatic updates were bug fixes and patches and the like - so you might have installed version 19.a.b.c, and you might get updated to version 19.x.y.z - but you'd remain on version 19.

Beyond that, I can't say - but they wouldn't be able to force an update from a version purchased on a perpetual licence to one on a subscription basis for legal reasons (technically, it would be possible). They'd find themselves in court incredibly fast if someone bought a version that wasn't time limited, and it suddenly upgraded to a version that required a subscription to keep working.

Once you're on the subscription model, though - I don't see why they wouldn't (and can see why the SHOULD) push updates to the latest version. This is, in fact, the one truly valid benefit of 'subscribing' to the software. For the vendor, support is a lot simpler if everyone is using the same version - and for the punter, it means they're always on the latest version.

(Though it can also be a disadvantage if the company pushes out a duff update, or the latest version needs a more powerful PC than you have, etc.)

abacus12345 · Guru

Yes, we are all used to duff updates if you've used vista...saying that, they've all had issues - Apple 'seem' pretty stable- not perfect yet still. Going off the topic now (again lol) VT uses 32 bit excel - if / when excel stops producing / supporting such, VT will need to be updated - office is now a sub service too - those using an 'older' CPU will need a new system. It won't affect most, as most CPU having been using 64 bit for an age - using old versions of Excel however....having said all that, 1) I'm probably wrong and 2) we all use business licenses so we are all covered ;)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

v21 and upwards received updates to perpetual licences as you close the software, although I dont allow them on mine. Just another way to get dosh from you in future is my oh so cynical (not so cynical) viewpoint. In part because it then provides you with a different version number as Vince says, which can then make it awkward if trying to do a backup/restore process between sage held on different PCs. I think there is a way of doing it to take the version name down to its base/original name - sure Ive seen something on here from Ian (Onion software) but cannot for the life of me find it now.

Sage dont provide support unless you pay for it and its usually through the nose!!!!! They also dont provide support for older versions (usually they go back 5 years if I recall rightly!). But Ive never heard of issues with sage, oh apart from the customer I have that has sage problems! lol. But that was purely of their own making - having two users using the same reference started it and then some daft goings on finished it off!!! Ended up with 2500 'fatal' errors, which actually werent fatal, albeit they took some time to sort out!

Good thing, if thats what you want to call it, is that once you have purchased sage in your own name, you can keep it donkeys years (2008 being my eg of fully working, aint broke no need to fix it), but if you did want to upgrade you can get a full new version, upgraded at a cheaper rate. or you can at the moment - who knows what will happen in another couple of years.

Downside of support, apart form cost is that they are only open 9-5, Monday to Friday. I dont consider that support!

Sage cloudy comes with support as part of the price and I am led to believe its 24/7 - but not tested that!

Yes Johnny Im a Sage fan, despite the above. That is purely as you suspected, well almost. My first software was Quick Books - really OLD OLD OLD version that I used for a Scout Group I was Treasurer for. With a 90 strong group who did LOADs of fundraising and had their own building (and therefore all the costs that go with it), which they rented out to various groups and a small business, there was no way I was going to do all of that in a two column cash book, besides I got the QB software free from the Group Scout Leader who happened to be an Accountant.

But my first software for clients was Sage. Completely taught myself as you are doing now, although Im a complete numpty when it comes to anything PC related so Im sure you will pick it up much quicker. Having a very varied client base actually means you pick up allsorts and how to process it. I deal with a lot of different scenarious in sage - foreign currencies, VAT on imports from the Far East, reverse charge VAT, EC sales lists, second hand margin scheme clients, ones taking large deposits, - each brings their own issues and is very much version dependent as to how you deal with them. Its been a lot of fun learning! Plus as you say - used by a lot of companies, and every one of the Accountants Ive worked with bar one. (Most of them have VT too!)

I do have a multi company version of QB Pro (newer version, 2013 I think) but Ive not even loaded it on to my new PC. Not enough of a fan. Just use it for the charity work.

Keep meaning to get my son to do my accounts on VT as well as Sage - might annoy the hell out of him even more and get him to do it on QB too!!!!!! Well its all good experience.

VinceH · Expert

Ah, yes - I'd forgotten about that backup gotcha.

When Sage backs up, the version number is recorded as part of the back up file. When you restore, it reads that number - and the version number of the software must be greater than or equal to the version number recorded in the backup.

In principal, that's a sensible approach: Newer versions may have additional features that have resulted in the file structures changing - so a version of the software that's older than the file might run into problems. A newer version, however, should be able to cope (and if there further changes it knows about, it should be able to 'convert' the data as necessary).

However, in general, the structures probably only change when the major version number changes 18.x -> 19.x ->20.x and so on. If so (and if Sage mandated that as a rule internally, and ensured none of their developers broke it), the version check could just work on the major version number.

But it is what it is, and I'm not going to criticise them for adopting a what is basically a sensible policy. (Especially since updates *within* the major version tend to be free).

The whole idea of paying for support for something that can cost many hundreds (or even thousands) of pounds has always annoyed me (even though I did actually pay it). I've always felt that support for the first year should be standard, not just 30 days. And even after that first year, they need to distinguish between support where its the customers/users who don't know how to do something, or don't understand principals, etc, and support where the problem is caused by bugs in the software.

It was many years ago, before I finally caved in and started paying for support, when I encountered a particularly interesting bug in the software - in the bank reconciliation screen. It took me ages to get someone at Sage to listen to me and acknowledge the bug; I was constantly getting replies of "Do you have Sage Cover? No? We can't provide support." I wasn't asking for support; I wanted to point out an important bug to them, which would allow them to fix it, and would therefore make the next version better and more reliable!

That bug was to do with panel resizing in the bank reconciliation screen. When they the ability for users to drag the 'bar' between the top and bottom panels up or down to increase/decrease the size of the two panels; unreconciled items at the top, reconciled at the bottom. The panel resizing was at a pixel level, which means you could partially obscure the bottommost transaction displayed in the upper pane.

When that was the case - and depending just how much the line was obscured - it was possible to select a number of transactions in the upper pane, and when you hit the button to mark them as reconciled and move them to the lower pane, it would sometimes transfer the *wrong* transactions. (It took me ages to realise that it wasn't me cocking up - it was definitely Sage).

It wasn't necessarily all of the transactions that were selected, it could be some of them - and sometimes none. I think it depended just how much of the bottommost line was obscured, and whether the selected transactions were above or below it. When I finally got through to someone at Sage willing to listen, I allowed them to remotely log-in to my computer - just as they do sometimes when providing support - so I could demonstrate it happening; once I'd realised the cause, it was perfectly repeatable.

abacus12345 · Guru

Hi Guys,

Interesting points -

Notable mentions being the backups. Going forward I shall endeavour to remember that.

I'm reading that you both are part of the lucky 'older' :P bunch who have the software before the newfangled subscription service.

Not intentionally doing this, but again, back to the cloud - do you think that 'maybe' the subscription sage will receive an update to in some way interact with the cloud software? In particular, although it has a smaller market share - Sage one.

Even being able to report digitally when that all begins - just a forward thought, or two.

Yes I *try* to learn things myself - I know what I want it to do, it's figuring all the back doors, and roundabouts in getting there! Once you've done a task a couple of times, it is very fluid.

I know some say it is idiot proof and no, or barely no bookkeeping / accounting knowledge is needed to use it - I disagree with that. I know how to use Photoshop, but I don't know how to use it properly - probably a poor choice of analogy yet still :)

Vince I can only imagine the headache at year end that could / would have caused!! Good spot - hope you received at least a 'Thanks' from Sage!

Thanks :)

VinceH · Expert

"Not intentionally doing this, but again, back to the cloud - do you think that 'maybe' the subscription sage will receive an update to in some way interact with the cloud software? In particular, although it has a smaller market share - Sage one."

I wouldn't necessarily cite specific products, but it's perfectly possible for desktop software to communicate with a remote server, and hold the data there. This is nothing new (and even predates the modern concept of 'cloud').

Whether this is a good idea is another matter. You'd still be subject to the problems of data being held elsewhere - with the security implications that entails, needing an internet connection to be able to access it, and so on - but at least the user interface would be via a proper desktop application, rather than one based on forms presented to the user in a web interface.

"Vince I can only imagine the headache at year end that could / would have caused!! Good spot - hope you received at least a 'Thanks' from Sage!"

Well year ends were unaffected because I was encountering the problem whenever I did a bank reconciliation - more pertinently, whenever I did the reconciliation for a particular client (who receive weekly statements), and have a large number of transactions. The other clients I use Sage for (and my own accounts) don't have much fewer transactions.

They're with Natwest, who use silly A5 statements - and with such a large number of transactions, that means statements each week with quite a number of sheets (with as few as six items per sheet - notably with payments set up online).

As I'm matching transactions on Sage to the statement, I tend to check the 'matched balance' on screen with the balance on each sheet - so it would be a case of select 1, select 2, select 3, select 4, select 5, select 6, click 'match' - then notice the matched balance doesn't agree with the sheet, because (say) items 3 and 4 weren't the 3 and 4 that I thought I'd selected.

I'd unmatch them, and do it again - initially, as I said, thinking it was me mis-clicking; clicking the item above (or below - whichever way it was) the one I meant to click.

So it never reached the year end, because it never got to the point where I was completing a reconciliation with the wrong items ticked. (Though I do recall around the same time fixing other people's reconciliations when they couldn't work out why their opening balance didn't match the last one.)

abacus12345 · Guru

Hey,

It is sort of a wonder whereby Sage desktop could be used as a sort of hub - client uses the cloud, data reaches Sage desktop.

Which led me to wonder if;

1) It was even on the 'cards'

2) If so, would the 'older' versions be likely to receive the update to be able to 'pull this off' Or would only the newer, subscription service receive this?

I'm going to hazard a guess that most cloud providers use their own extensions, leaving it difficult to import from varying providers - hence the mention of Sage one.

Now, having said that when it does switch to digital - Surely all uploads of data will need to be in a universal format, or not more than a 'few' so as that HMRC can read the files.

Sort of akin to excel can read various extensions.

Everything I've just mentioned goes against almost everything the cloud stands for, so I've more likely created my own none starter :)

The above was leading to a number three, so in the spirit if comedy...

3) Assuming the older versions do not receive the newer update (which doesn't exist) is it wiser to wait, than to spend >£600 on software which could potentially fail to lack all capabilities within 18 months, leaving subscription the safer bet, albeit at a heavier price.

-----

So back to 'learning' sage - I like to work backwards lol.

*) What's a dummy invoice all about? I've seen it mentioned a few times.

Thank you :)

VinceH · Expert

"1) It was even on the 'cards'"

Pass.

ISTR at one point Sage were selling a version (or an add-on) to the multi-user packages that would allow someone to work remotely - but never having investigated it or knowing anyone that had it, I don't know how it worked.

The one client I had who considered it, there were only a very small number of people using it - the boss, one member of staff on and off, and me one afternoon every couple of weeks. I suggested they save some money by buying a laptop to run the server copy of Sage. If she wanted to work on Sage at home in the evening... take the laptop home.

There are a number of ways it might have worked - the most logical being that the remote machine would access the data on the server in the office. If so, that's a big step in the direction we're talking: Just shift the server location into Sage's cloud.

(I wonder what happened to that; whether it's still an option - and if not, why they've not considered the desktop client approach, rather than a Web-based UI).

"2) If so, would the 'older' versions be likely to receive the update to be able to 'pull this off' Or would only the newer, subscription service receive this?"

Updating older versions to work this way (those that can fetch updates from Sage's website) is technically feasible - but if Sage were to go down this route, there's no way they'd do it without getting a massive slap, because people would be a bit miffed if the software they bought, and which they don't need to update because it still works, is suddenly updated to a version that requires an new, ongoing payment to continue to access the now remotely stored data.

Unless, that is, they decide to make the cloudy element of it free - which means they'd go to all the effort to develop a version of the software to work like that, and provide server space for all that data, and not get anything in return.

Look how much flack Microsoft is getting at the moment for the forced Windows 10 updates - and that's without them asking for money for it. Just imagine how pissed off people would be if they had a Windows 10 update forced on them, immediately followed by a demand for money in order to actually use it.

"I'm going to hazard a guess that most cloud providers use their own extensions, leaving it difficult to import from varying providers - hence the mention of Sage one."

It depends what you mean by cloud providers and extensions. If you specifically mean cloud-based accounts software, it's not so much 'extensions' but 'data formats' - just as different desktop accounts software uses different data formats, which is why it's not a simple case of being able to export data from one to import into another; there are ways to do it, but it's not a straightforward task.

(There are also services to do it for you - but read the small print; they'll usually have a caveat or three.)

If you mean cloud providers in general, such as Google or Amazon AWS, then yes, I expect there are differences in the user interfaces and APIs to set things up with their services - much as one hosting provider's control panel differs from another's - but I imagine (because not planning to set up any cloud services, I've no reason to investigate) that once things are up and running, the same services can be provided from any.

"Now, having said that when it does switch to digital - Surely all uploads of data will need to be in a universal format, or not more than a 'few' so as that HMRC can read the files."

There might be a rigid, defined format for whatever data that they want to receive - much as there is for VAT return submissions, for example - but it'll be up to the software how it stores its data internally; it's only when submitting it that it needs to be in/converted to the mandated form.

(And I remain unconvinced that all software will have to comply and be able to submit this data - I believe there will be web-based forms for people to submit manually. Or at least, secondary software that serves the same sort of purpose.)

"3) Assuming the older versions do not receive the newer update (which doesn't exist) is it wiser to wait, than to spend >£600 on software which could potentially fail to lack all capabilities within 18 months, leaving subscription the safer bet, albeit at a heavier price."

Well, personally, I'd wait until (and hope that) the cloud and subscription insanity passes. If enough people resist, and not only do the likes of Sage not get an increased and recurring income, but they actually lose custom as a result of it, then they might come to their senses and revert to the old model.

Sadly, though, too many people seem to be willing to bend over and take it - so I might be waiting a long time.

"What's a dummy invoice all about? I've seen it mentioned a few times."

It can mean many things - depending what you use it for. Mainly, it's an invoice posted on the system to help sort out a problem, but not a "real" invoice - not something that you'd send out to a customer, or one you've received from a supplier.

abacus12345 · Guru

Hey Thanks!

So would you say the working man's approach to getting various data from X cloud into Sage desktop would be to export / import from excel?

Regarding the extensions, I was coming in from the approach that, for instance you'd get .xero .kashflow .sageone etc etc -

Yet mixed in with HMRC, the need would be similar to, although entirely different - iXbrl tagging - sort of a universal system.

Sage *could* I guess, offer a add-on whereby it could convert .xero .kashflow etc into a Sage readable format, although not sure of the copyright standing on that.

Sage desktop, again could be updated to include a digital submission, akin to VAT submissions.

I'm at a loss as to why Sage would potentially let the desktop slip purely into the business / commercial side, leaving the cloud to take over practice, especially as Sage one is terrible.

The same could be said about VT, what are their plans?

From a personal stand point, I'm thinking of the return of my >£600 should I go down that route.

Again, on the other side of the coin, digital reporting may fail miserably!

VinceH · Expert

Ah, you meant file extensions. Okay.

No, different platforms (operating systems) use different mechanisms to identify the type of file, and associate that with software. Windows is one that uses file extensions to do this.

Not all software works that way, though - if the data and the way the software works is such that it doesn't contain everything in a single file, then that data might be stored in a particular location, somewhere most users don't need to know or see in day to day use. Sage falls into this category, for example: the data is stored in a particular folder, and consists of multiple files.

Since (at the root of it) accounts data is really just a database (or databases), such software running in the cloud is often not storing data in a proprietary file type, but rather a database in a proprietary structure. In simple terms, if you think of it as a spreadsheet rather than a database, while Xero might have Column A as 'Date', B as 'Transaction type', C as Reference (and so on), Kashflow might have A as type, B as reference, C as date - and so on.

Now that might sound like it's therefore just a case of working out what order the columns are in, you then also have to consider that the different software might store different things - so one might have columns the other doesn't have, representing additional information. (For example, the way payments are matched against invoices, which in one might be encoded sequences of transactions - or lines if we're still visualising it as a spreadsheet - that combined reflect this information, but in the other might be encoded in extra fields/columns. They could even cross reference to another related database.

Then there's the format of the information within each field. A good - and easy to explain - example of this is the date: It might be stored textually as dd, mm, yyyy or yyyy, mm, dd - or it might be stored as a count of the number of days since a certain date (in a similar concept as "UNIX time" - which is the number of seconds since 1970:01:01:00:00:00). It's a long time since I've written any code that stores dates, but my method was always to perform a calculation on the date (because I wasn't interested in the time) that could fit any CE date in three bytes - different again.

So what you almost certainly won't have is a simple file on the server with a .kashflow, .xero (etc) file extension. (And even if you did, you wouldn't be able to just point something at it and say "translate" because if it was that simple to access, that would mean security is non-existent!)

To get from one package to another, you need to be able export the data - the most commonly understood format for this is CSV - which is a simple textual format whereby each 'transaction' is on a line, and each line is broken down into fields (or columns) using commas. By exporting this way, all those pesky internal things (such as date encodings) that can be made meaningful should be.

This is where your comment about importing/exporting via Excel comes into it - it's only at this point in my explanation that I've realised what you meant. You could load a CSV into Excel (or another spreadsheet - I use OpenOffice Calc) to tweak things as necessary, saving as CSV again, then importing the result into the other accounts package.

Alternatively, if the new package gives you enough control, you might be able to skip the spreadsheet step - for example, Sage's import has allowed you to specify which fields in the CSV file is mapped to the fields it expects.

However, you can only import things that can be expressed in a meaningful context in the CSV file - meaningful here referring to non-proprietary internal stuff - so that issue of how the software stores how payments are matched to invoices, for example.

In theory, if the file format(s) and data structures used by any given software are documented and made public, then the developer of any other software could use that information to allow their software to convert the raw files directly (or they could attempt to reverse engineer that info to achieve the same end) - much as, for example, OpenOffice Calc can load (and save) Excel files. I'm not aware of any situations where accounts software has been written to do this, though - do any of them publish file formats?

As to the cost of Sage - don't spend that money on it until and unless it is necessary to do so. If you have one client for which you need it, consider if Instant is sufficient £150 (?) versus >£600!

Even if you have two, weigh up if it might be cheaper and more practical to buy a second, cheap computer and another copy of Instant, than to buy a two company version of the larger program. (ISTR someone commenting recently, as well, about getting multiple copies to work on the same computer, though it's not something I've ever tried).

abacus12345 · Guru

So my theory of future Sage, from my opinion is a non-starter. It would be cool though right? :) It's funny isn't it, all this newfangled software, and Excel is still the king in the middle. It's not 'impossible' though is it? Some form of universal reader to then convert, as you rightly say though - security! I'd be interested to know what sort of systems HMRC will use to read all this future data from all different packages.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

abacus12345 wrote:
I'd be interested to know what sort of systems HMRC will use to read all this future data from all different packages.

Tut, I've not been reading this one as it had Sage in the title and now I find that it's actually tranformed into a more generic conversation.

Johnny,

All of the software in the market place needs to send information to HMRC. To do that they need commonality so that the HMRC systems understands the data that it is receiving.

Currently an example of that is where accounts are sent to HMRC. No matter which package is used, VT, IRIS, whatever the data needs to be tagged using iXBRL which builds in commonality.

All software vendors need to adhere to the same tagging rules and the data transferred will be in the same format no matter where it comes from.

Another example of that is the DTC (Data Transfer Catalogue) used by utility companies to pass data between themselves even though they have very different computer systems they need to be able to tranbsfer data in a given pre defined format.

The reason that Excel is king for us is that whilst HMRC and utility companies can demand that data is transferred in a certain way using translation software that demands that the data exists in a given format to facilitate the use of that software unfortunately we don't have that sort of power so the common link is the ability to throw a data dump into Excel and sort it out in order to transfer the data to a new software package.

There will never be a universal reader because software vendors keep different levels of data in different ways and the data required for translation to iXBRL for HMRC is insufficient for detailed opening balances (i.e. no data commonality for individual customers, suppliers, banks and other finance providers).

The only way to make work what you are suggesting is for software companies to work together to make life easier for their customers to swap packages but the reality is that it makes business sense to make it as difficult as possible for people to convert from their software to a competitors.

The only reason that the utility companies make it easy for each other is because there is legislation in place (1998 utilities deregulation) to make them adhere to the demands of the DTC (legal approach to complaince).

With HMRC they dictate the format and if software companies cannot comply then they cannot be used to file so nobody will buy them (Commercial approach to compliance).

Hope that helps,

Shaun.

VinceH · Expert

"So my theory of future Sage, from my opinion is a non-starter. It would be cool though right? :)"

A desktop package that acts as a client to access data on a remote (cloudy) server?

No, that wouldn't be cool, IMO. You'd still have all of the things I dislike about cloud with only one problem addressed - the clunky web-based interface replaced by one in a desktop application.

A slightly better approach would be if the server component was also available to end users so that they could set it up somewhere under their control - but knowing Sage, this would be a very expensive item, and you'd still have many of the cloudy issues unless you were only running it on a local server in the office. At which point, you're just doing what you can now with a multi-user network installation.

"It's funny isn't it, all this newfangled software, and Excel is still the king in the middle."

I don't recognise something that I don't use as king in the middle.

Not only do I not use Microsoft's office software, my goal is to not use their operating system - I intend to set up a computer running a Linux distro and experiment, to see if the software I need that runs under Windows will work under WINE.

In some cases, there may be Linux alternatives that I can get away with instead - but (for example) I've tried some alternatives to TurboCAD (on Windows, but for which there are Linux versions) and I didn't get on with them.

And in some cases, the software is available for Linux anyway: OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Messenger Pro, KeePass, etc., etc., etc.

Keeping it relevant to this field, though - the two accounts packages I use are Sage Line 50 Accounts+ and VT Transaction+; I suspect both will work under WINE, but I wonder if Sage in particular will work fully; I suspect some of the reporting (and sending reports as emails - such as statements and remittance advices) might be where I have issues. (Although that's a bizarre random guess having never actually tried it!)

Also: I wonder what accounts packages are available for Linux?

"It's not 'impossible' though is it? Some form of universal reader to then convert,"

No, it's not impossible - far from it.

Every file format can be read and understood by software - primarily the software designed to write and read it (i.e. the 'home' application) - so any other software could, in theory, be written with the capability of reading and understand that file format. What it needs is knowledge of that file format by the people who write the software, ideally by the originators publishing that information.

But when a vendor enjoys the benefits of user lock in, publishing that information is not in their own interests!

Reverse engineering is also an option, but can be error prone. (It might convert most aspects of the source data, but some aspects could be lost.)

"as you rightly say though - security!"

That was referring to the idea of doing this with cloudy data.

"I'd be interested to know what sort of systems HMRC will use to read all this future data from all different packages."

As I said, they won't read anything: They'll mandate a format for the submission of the data, and software capable of doing so will convert it on the fly into that format when it's submitting.

abacus12345 · Guru

I've used a Linux distro before - Ubuntu, once you've a handle on the terminal, unpacking programs etc it is very good - very similar IMO to OS and the console. Windows is just simple, almost always gets the job done. Yes it's not perfect...I've had a play with Kali - although that seems to be aim at either pen testers, or black hats!! I'd be interested to see software like Sage working 100% to its capabilities on Linux - I imagine each up date would require a bit of magic to get it to fit.

VinceH · Expert

Well I've no intention of updating Sage unless I have no choice - so as long as I can get the version I have working, that's all that matters for now. :)

abacus12345 · Guru

Ha ha yes, very true! So....:) If I rec a eBay a/c with a PayPay a/c - Set up a 400x eBay sales - Create a PayPal bank a/c...When it comes to charges for the use of eBay/PayPal, can I do a straight payment? Or is it better to create invoices before hand? Seems alien to do that but...payments that are being held - let them ride through the Rec until next time? Or is it better to create a sage holding a/c of sorts? Thanks

VinceH · Expert

I'd be inclined to post such charges as straight payments - but it's a long time since I've done anything with PayPal other than pay for the odd small thing, so I don't know how they present stuff. It's even longer since I bought - and especially sold - anything with eBay.

But AFAICR straight payments worked.

In some cases - and this applies to other things as well, not just eBay/Paypal charges - you might find that in a particular client's case it might pay to use purchase invoices where in other cases it's not necessary. Sometimes there isn't a right way to do it, and you have to look at it on a case by case basis.

The same principals, btw, should apply to any accounts package - not just Sage.

abacus12345 · Guru

Thanks Vince. I'm coming in from Excel so...:) With Sage, is there much to do at year end? Much seems automatic, if set to do so, aside from depreciation and perhaps a late / not turned up yet electricity bill. Prepayments should be fine - so what is the end process? Rec's, depreciation, odd accrual - lock the period? If LTD add tax info. Seems too straight forward

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Johnny

One of the anomalies of sage is that when rolling the year forward sage has to be at year end date, which caused me a lot of grief a year or so ago. It was an oldish version (12 I think) so hopefully that's changed now.

Because I had rolled the year over in July 14, when I did the previous year end, it showed the brought forward figures from Feb 13 to July 14, rather than Jan 14. What I should have done is set the program date to 31st January first.

It was a big thanks to Ian at Onion Software that got the issue fixed but boy, what a nightmare.

abacus12345 · Guru

Thanks John - something I'll remember to look out for. Are you a sage man yourself? Or do you use a collection of various software?

VinceH · Expert

It's pretty straightforward. Most of what you need to think about apply to all packages; such as the things you mention - reconciliations, prepayments, accruals, etc. I tend to work through the balance sheet nominals - either making sure the reconciliation is done if appropriate, producing supporting schedules for them.

For example, I have fixed asset schedules as spreadsheets where appropriate, which shows all the necessary figures for each asset, and I make sure the balances on the relevant nominals matches the sum totals of the relevant columns on that. Similarly, I use a spreadsheet to follow through accruals and prepayments - one column for each thing being accrued and prepaid, with charges and reversals shown on lines as you work down. The bottom line is therefore the breakdown of each, and the total should be the balance on the relevant nominal account.

Within Sage itself, the year end is just a matter of telling it to [take backups and] close the year. As long as the chart of accounts is set up correctly - in particular, the P&L codes - Sage does all the year end journals when you tell it to close the year.

The problem John described was fixed quite a few versions back; I do change the program date to the year end date out of habit because it used to be a problem - and in my version it does still warn you if you don't - but it isn't necessary any longer. Unless they've broken it again in newer versions than I have, which is always possible. :)

abacus12345 · Guru

He he!! If it ain't broke - they'll break it... Thanks for that. Nice to get confirmation, as oppose to having a blonde moment lol. So I take it you yourself keep up to date with your prepayments and accruals in excel, I thought it was just me using that method with excel, expecting others to have some savvy software gizmo which would record and remind - I guess that is possible with various practice software - yet I'm not a rich accountant:) I prefer to spend hundreds as an oppose to thousands- then again, if I had >100 clients I wouldn't need to worry about cost!

VinceH · Expert

"So I take it you yourself keep up to date with your prepayments and accruals in excel"

Yes... except no, because I still don't use Excel! :p

Within Sage, the known ones are posted automagically using recurring entries. (I thought I saw a comment recently which - unless I misread it - I thought suggested you couldn't use journals in Sage's recurring entries, but you can. I was going to comment, but forgot, now I'm not sure which thread it's in.)

For example, if I know the average quarterly phone bill is £450, I'll have a recurring journal set up to accrue £150 per month, and I'll post the phone bill itself straight to accruals rather than the P&L. Come the year end, when I work through the accruals with that spreadsheet, I'll decide if the final figure's acceptable, or if I need to adjust it - and if I therefore need to adjust the recurring provision for the next year.

You can do it a different way in Sage - some versions allow you to post prepayments and accruals as part of the month-end process. And you can also have a fixed asset register, from which monthly depreciation is posted as part of the month-end routine. However, I prefer the separate spreadsheet approach, because I feel it gives me greater control, and an external check.

abacus12345 · Guru

He he yes of course - open-office;) I like your approach. Which reports do you find you use mostly? Detailed or summary? Thanks for your input on this thread, it is appreciated:)

VinceH · Expert

The reports I use on a weekly basis are a supplier invoices due report, a supplier payment day book report, and supplier remittance advices. Reports (and 'layouts') that I use monthly (or ad hoc, but frequently) are sales invoices, statements, customer invoices due - and probably others that my mind is blanking on now. And most obviously: trial balance, P&L and balance sheet.

Some of those reports are heavily modified, some less so.

By way of an example, I'll run through my super efficient brilliant approach to supplier payments at one client. They're a same day courier, and use a lot of self employed types who like to be paid weekly - so on a weekly basis, I set up the payments for these and any other invoices (bigger firms, for example) who have 30 day terms, etc.

I start by running a supplier invoices due report. The report is designed such that I specify the end point of the due period; I set the payments up on a Wednesday to hit people's accounts on a Friday - so I get it to report everything due up to the following Thursday (so provided we have an invoice, everyone is paid on time).

That report shows me one supplier per page, with their contact and bank details at the top. I use that initially to pull their invoices from my unpaid file. I work through it, setting up the payments and checking the contact/bank details against what's shown on the invoices, in case they've changed (and if necessary, then change the details on the supplier account on Sage). As I set up each payment online, I also post it to Sage.

When the task is completed, I tell the bank to give me a summary of all the payments I've set up that session - and I run a modified supplier payments day book report in Sage. The modification is mainly to give me the list in value order - highest value payment first, lowest last - because that's the order their bank defaults to. If the totals differ, it makes it easy to scan down the list and spot the difference (for example, if I've paid Joe Bloggs two invoices, but only set the payment up for one in Sage).

I then email the director who authorises the payments to tell him how many are set up and the total amount - so when he does authorise them, if the amount on the bank doesn't match my figures something's gone astray, and we can check it before proceeding. (Not that it's ever happened - I'm just careful.)

Once he's authorised them he prints out a summary from the bank, which shows each payment - including the bank details. That summary comes to me next time I'm in, and I then use that alongside the 'Remittance' screen in Sage to email out remittance advices.

Finally, that summary he printed from the bank is filed with the relevant invoices in the paid file(s). Occasionally, we'll get a subbie (weekly, or bigger firm) chasing for payment of an invoice that's already been paid - and since that print out is from the bank, it confirms that it was paid and the account it was paid into.

-- Edited by VinceH on Thursday 2nd of June 2016 09:23:50 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:

It wasn't necessarily all of the transactions that were selected, it could be some of them - and sometimes none. I think it depended just how much of the bottommost line was obscured, and whether the selected transactions were above or below it. When I finally got through to someone at Sage willing to listen, I allowed them to remotely log-in to my computer - just as they do sometimes when providing support - so I could demonstrate it happening; once I'd realised the cause, it was perfectly repeatable.

Well done on actually getting sage to listen to you and take note, plus of course making the necessary changes. I still have this issues with 2008 version although now Im used to is, although only being able to click on 3 items at a time during a rec was a pain at first, but you get faster as you go.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Hi Guys,

I'm reading that you both are part of the lucky 'older' :P bunch who have the software before the newfangled subscription service.

I know some say it is idiot proof and no, or barely no bookkeeping / accounting knowledge is needed to use it - I disagree with that. I know how to use Photoshop, but I don't know how to use it properly - probably a poor choice of analogy yet still :)

Sorry Ive come back to this late after having to be AWOL for a couple of days - had a massive sage set up to do - couldve done with you on board Johnny. Been great learning for my boy though. Anyway I will dip in on one or two of the answers, perhaps just on the bits where Vince hasnt been able to comment given he is using an older version, although he has done a brilliant job with his responses, so I hope the little I can add will also help.

Have to say though - oi less of the bloody old. lol. biggrin Experienced.

I just love the way they say you dont need to know about bookkeeping to use sage. You dont to do the basic tasks, but then Ive seen right old messes made, especially when people try to unravel a mistake they made in the first instance, then make another 16 to sort it - and dont!! This one Im working on is a prime example of that, so the unravelling had to be done before the new sage set up, so its been a right old nightmare and very time consuming.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:

They're with Natwest, who use silly A5 statements - and with such a large number of transactions, that means statements each week with quite a number of sheets (with as few as six items per sheet - notably with payments set up online).

Hi Vince

If they have basic online Banking they can get an A4 pdf from NatWest. If they are a bigger company they can actually get NatWests Bankline product - now depending on what version of that they get, Bankline does a data dump that can go straight into Sage, in a variety of formats.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Re the 'remote' issue mentioned a couple of times. Client Im just setting up now has multi users and one of the things I am looking at doing is adding me on to their server so I can work on their sage from home. What sage have done though with v22 (2016) is provide a portal so you can access the software remotely - Ive not tried it yet. Have it on my list to check out to see how easy it is to set up and use and more importantly if it will be available once my client stops paying for support. Although I might as well use it for the first 12months whilst its free and Ive got so much to catch up on. They do also provide something cloudy with it, cant recall what its called just now, but whatever it is I just dismissed as I know it will NOT be available unless they keep paying for support and they wont past the anniversary. Might have a look so I can update you if I get the chance over the next day or two.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:
Well I've no intention of updating Sage unless I have no choice - so as long as I can get the version I have working, that's all that matters for now. :)

Im with you on that. Although yes in 2015 I did, but in part, for example, as I have multi currency clients/withholding tax issues etc (and Ive hiked my prices to cover some of the shortfall) and its so much easier putting invoices into the system in the correct currency etc.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Ha ha yes, very true! So....:) If I rec a eBay a/c with a PayPay a/c - Set up a 400x eBay sales - Create a PayPal bank a/c...When it comes to charges for the use of eBay/PayPal, can I do a straight payment? Or is it better to create invoices before hand? Seems alien to do that but...payments that are being held - let them ride through the Rec until next time? Or is it better to create a sage holding a/c of sorts? Thanks

I agree with Vince - key them as 'bank payments'.

I also key quite a lot of the entries via paypal/amazon as 'Bank payments' or 'bank receipts' as often they havent been issued with an invoice. Of course the likes of paypal is often used instead of a Bank account so I have a client who issues invoices, so some of the funds coming in via paypal will need to them be keyed as 'customer receipt'. Care on this one - my client forgot to include a clause to say they must pay the extortionate paypal charges. One customer paying him via this method cost him £11+ on a transaction of only about £200! When I mentioned it I suggested he go back and get the difference but of course his commercial decision was to let that one lie and so talk to them about avoiding it next time (which they have).

Now you could key that entry two way - actual funds sent (as these are listed on the paypal statement) - customer receipt - match full funds to invoice. Then key charges side of it as 'Bank payment'. Therefore you will get two entries on sage versus one on your paypal statement. I mark things up so you can see in 6 months time as you wont remember!

Or - key the net received as 'customer receipt', which of course leaves a shortfall on the customer account. So then issue a 'dummy credit note' for the charges and key that credit note to the paypal charges nominal. This is obviously a longer route round - but is an example of the dummy Cn you asked about earlier. Achieves the same thing.

Maybe more later (weekend earliest)- gotta run. Demanding clients!!!!!!!!

-- Edited by Cheshire on Friday 3rd of June 2016 09:14:43 AM