As promised in another thread here is my first draft of some site ethics.
I am sure that you have all read the site rules but the issue with rules is that they can be circumvented where ethics are based in principles.
For example, a rule of the road would be one must drive at 70 mph or less. That does not take into account weather conditions so following the rules someone could drive on that road when there is ice on the ground and a blizzard raging at 70 mph... Pretty stupid, yes?
A principles based rule would be that one must drive safely. The 70 mph rule still exists but there is also an underlying principle based rule that one drives safely which takes into account the weather conditions.
So it will be with the site going forwards. All of the site rules still apply but members need to also consider matters from an ethical perspective.
The following ethical rules are based upon the IFAC rules of professional conduct. Many members will already be signed up to this through membership of their respective professional bodies.
This will be a living document which will grow over time but for starters does anyone have strong feelings over any of the following which I intend to launch as the start point for the site ethics.
Worth mentioning here that just because something is referred to as an ethical principle does not mean that it will not be enforced as a site rule.
When we have a set of ethics that we are happy with I'll move it into the site rules section and make it a sticky.
1) Integrity
Members should be open and honest.
Applied to the site : People should not claim to be what they are not. Be honest about professional qualifications and experience
2) Objectivity
a state of mind that is free from bias, conflicts of interest or undue influence of others
Applied to the site : Do not allow personal bias to get in the way of giving the best advice for the person asking the question. For example, in the past I have advised Sage as being the best software for someone even though that is not generally my software of choice.
3) Professional Competence and Due care
This implies a state of lifelong learning where one is always attempting to enhance one's professional skillset and knowledge base.
Applied to the site : Do not guess at answers but ensure that you can if necessary back up statements made on the site. Peoples confidence in you is based upon the answers that you give.
4) Confidentiality
Client details must never be divulged to third parties.
Applied to the site : Never, ever, divulge client details in questions or answers posed on the site. There have been cases (quickly removed) of people posting traceable client details on the site. That must never happen. When posting questions disguise names, references, account number and where possible the actual amounts involved.
5) Professional behaviour
Treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself and always act in a manner that can in no way bring discredit on yourself, the site or the profession.
This is very much the catch all ethical standard that expects site members to act in a professional manner
Applied to the site : As an example of this there are many cases where someone answers a post and then someone else answers without acknowledging the first poster at all. That lacks professional respect.
Another example is where a job ad is posted people put themselves forwards in a manner that attempts to push others out of the way. People should acknowledge the other applicants perhaps even apologise for putting themselves up as competition and then give the reason why their services should be considered.
6) Marketing professional services
Site members must not make unfounded claims of superiority of their own services or be disparaging of the services of other site members or members.
For example. One can never claim to be the best at something in their advertising such as "the best bookkeeper in the Midlands" as to claim such is claiming superiority of your services over those of others. How would you prove that?
Applied to the site : When answering job advertisements on the site keep only to the facts.
-- Edited by Shamus on Saturday 11th of June 2016 03:19:07 PM
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself and always act in a manner that can in no way bring discredit on yourself, the site or the profession.
This is very much the catch all ethical standard that expects site members to act in a professional manner
Applied to the site : As an example of this there are many cases where someone answers a post and then someone else answers without acknowledging the first poster at all. That lacks professional respect.
Another example is where a job ad is posted people put themselves forwards in a manner that attempts to push others out of the way. People should acknowledge the other applicants perhaps even apologise for putting themselves up as competition and then give the reason why their services should be considered.
All looks good Shaun, but can I ask what you mean in the line in bold.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
there have been some cases where peolple (non of the current regulars) have, with no risk that the two posts could have crossed in the post simply ignored previous answers and replied with on occassion responses almost identical to previous answers.
That perhaps wasn't a great example and happy to change it to something else or lose that one completely and move up the job ad example.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I *think* it would be trying to take the shine off someone else's answer :P
You detail in 13 paragraphs - I sum up in three! lol
Hi Johnny, no it wasn't that.
Where you comment it generally acknowledges previous answers and puts your own interpretation on things. I was thinking particularly about cases where peoples answers have just been totally ignored only for the new poster to repeat what has already been said.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
there have been some cases where peolple (non of the current regulars) have, with no risk that the two posts could have crossed in the post simply ignored previous answers and replied with on occassion responses almost identical to previous answers.
That perhaps wasn't a great example and happy to change it to something else or lose that one completely and move up the job ad example.
Classic one is the job ad eg. Someone ( eg a fellow professional who posts on here regularly) post an ad for some work to be outsourced. Someone responds with a message to say they have Pm'd a quote. Then maybe two or three days later someone else add a post to say they will PM a quote. Now competition is all well and good and in the 'outside' world we wouldnt know who has quoted for the work, but in the context of this forum I just see it as really bad form that people seem to treading on others toes to get the work. The early bird catches the worm and all that. Ive seen it happen a few times and it just looks bad.
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Hehe, yeah. I feel like replying to people like that in all sorts of places - both online and off.
But no, what Shaun is referring to is where a thread like this unfolds:
Original poster: "How do I do such and such?"
First reply: "You do X, then Y, then Z"
Then a few days later you get:
Second reply: "The best way is to do X, then Y, then Z"
Going back several months, there was one irregular poster in particular that followed up a few different posts with words to the effect of "[Joe Bloggs] is correct, that's how you do it" as if their knowledge and superiority gave credence to the answer that had already been given by someone else.
Someone (probably Shaun, but I can't remember) replied to a couple of the posts to say "Oi! Stop it!"
-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 31st of May 2016 01:55:00 PM
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
there have been some cases where peolple (non of the current regulars) have, with no risk that the two posts could have crossed in the post simply ignored previous answers and replied with on occassion responses almost identical to previous answers.
That perhaps wasn't a great example and happy to change it to something else or lose that one completely and move up the job ad example.
I thought I had misread it lol. I thought you meant the introductory bit like Hi so and so, which I forget to do sometimes.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Yeah, or a post will remain unanswered for a fortnight, for one reason or another -
Post gets an answer, followed by 'some' others confirming - Even though the post has received 200 views with no replies up to this point.
In fairness, I think before we as 'professionals' post a question we *should* already sort of know the answer we are hoping for.
I think the business owners stand out, and so do those who are in this trade trying to chance it, maybe biting off more than they can chew for instance.
For me, I don't mind answering the average business owner if it is a simple question, it's the owners and 'wannabes' who get an answer they don't like, to continue asking the same darn question that leaves me scratching my head!
This site to me, aside from the chit chat, and the occasional banter is about gaining confirmation of thoughts, and being on the right track. Not to mention everyday being a school day!
I've said, and thought it before, it is the 'most' friendly of public forums I've used, from IT related, to reptile - and everything inbetween.
That is enough soap box from me today ;)
Well, maybe.
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Johnny - Owner of an overly-active keyboard.
A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.
Now dont forget the ones who have had replies from say two people, then go on and thank just one!!!!
Or the ones who dont say thank you, have clearly been back online 15 times, then suddenly realise they have a connected question, so come back on, say thank you to the earlier post, then ask the next question, cos they know thats the way to get an answer!!!!!
Had one person pull both of those tricks recently. They think Ive fallen for it, but Ive answered just cos Im nice!
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Shaun, you've just helped me with revision for my AAT professional ethics exam on Wednesday thanks. I was having a break from revision to work and now I have done both with the this reminder list
The section numbers of the IFAC code for the above are
110) Integrity
120) Objectivity
130) Professional Competence and Due care
140) Confidentiality
150) Professional behaviour
250) Marketing professional services
Which I regard as the important one's for this site.
The one's that I've missed out are
210) Agreeing the terms of the Engagement
220) Conflicts of Interest
230) Second Opinions
240) Fee's and Remuneration
260) Gifts and Hospitality
270) Custody of Client Assets
280) Objectivity in all services
290) Independance in Assurance engagements
All of the one's that I have identified for the site come up regularly in exams. Of the others (240) and (260) are generally examiner favorites
240 from the perspective that you must provide the same high level of services to your clients not matter what Fee's are charged so if you are running a contract as a loss leader you must still provide the same high level of service even if such means that you perform the engagement at a losss.
260 is concerned with the effect on your integrity, objectivity and independance if you accept a gift from a client. For example, it is acceptable to accept a pen from a client when their company name is embossed on it, but accepting an expensive fountain pen would not be acceptable.
You also need to remember the threats to objectivity for which I use the Mneumonic IFSAMS
In recent years there has been an issue over the A and M being basically the same thing but I'm not going to make up another Acronym to remember when the one that I have is one of those that is burnt into the old grey matter (the same as the ones for how to recognise a company is in trouble and what needs to be known about a new client)
Going through them
Intimidation - Do you feel threatened by the client? This could be physical, legal or commercial
Familararity - Long association with a client may make one blind to behaviour / transactions / etc. that with a new client you would have picked up on immediately
Self Interest - Closely linked to intimidation in that you do not want to lose a client so threats to one's livelihood could temp one to turn a blind eye
Advocacy - You find yourself representing a client as though you were part of their management rather than independant of them
Management - see advocacy
Self Review - You find yourself in a position where you are reviewing your own work which you cannot then say is a pile of crap. A good example of that might be where you are both the bookkeeper and the accountant. For micro entities that would not be an issue but even for SME's the two roles should really be separated.
A key weapon against Intimidation and self interest is to ensure that no one client represent a material amount of the business fee income. The guidance is that any one firm represnting less than 10% of fee income is ok, more than 15% is not ok, 10% to 15% is a judgement call. (For public interest companies (PLC's) subtract 5% from those figures so 5% to 10%)
They key to ethics is that it is not how one judges themselves but rather how one could be viewed by a reasonably informed third party.
Basically consider everything that you do from the perspective of how it could be judged by others.
Hope that helps and good luck with the exam Rachel.
Here are a few videos that you may find useful on the run up :
opentuition.com/acca/p7/chapter-1-rules-of-professional-conduct/ This is a long meandering 2 hour lecture but its by a great lecturer and you will be surprised how his tales and anicdotes make you think about things. You can skip to 24:35 as the first part of the lecture covers an introduction to the paper, the scooring system and corporate social responsibility. From there just try this lecture to see whether the anicdotal style works for you (it does me). Ignore that the paper is aimed at Audit. They are the same ethics in everything that we do, not just audit work.
www.youtube.com/watch This is a short recap type lecture which concentrates on the bare bones of ethics much as I have done above. I don't mind the Irish accent but it may put some off.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Many thanks to everyone for their input with a big thanks to Vince for the suggestion of putting a warning (pointing back to site rules and site ethics) as a sticky on each section.
Appologies for the delay in implementing the suggestions but this is the first time in a couple of weeks that I've had chance to sort it out.
Hope that everyone is happy with the results of your input.
kindest regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
thanks. I was having a break from revision to work and now I have done both with the this reminder list
