we already have a thread from Johnny dedicated to peoples feelings on whether to stay or go but I felt that the subject of the spin based statistics needed its own thread.
This is not a one sided issue with the Brexit campaign making some disputable claims especially around the £350m per week saving which does not take into account money that is repatriated to the UK from that £350m. The reality is closer to £248m per week that Europe keeps. Still a substantial sum but not the one being bandied.
Personally I am finding the remain campaigns statistics more worrying. On the radio this morning Mr Cameron tried using statistics seemingly on the assumption that anyone who is listening to him must be stupid (obviously the cunning plan behind decades of cross party misspending (I'm not going to say underspending) in the UK education system).
Let me share with you the line that left me open mouthed in the car (I have not verified the statistics, my shock was at how they were used).
44% of UK output is exported to Europe but only 7% of European output is exported to the UK.... Yes, thats right, he was comparing 44% of one country against combined imports from the total output of 27 other countries in an arguement to suggest that Europe can do without us as we amount for only an insignificant 7% of their output where we cannot do without Europe so there will be no way that they will be rushing to arrange trade agreements with us if we leave.
The truth is that we are the ninth largest economy in the world and the second largest in Europe. No matter how much our own prime minister and chancellor talk down the countries powerful economic position on the world stage I'm not seeing that there's going to be any shortage of countries lining up to trade with us on terms more advantageous and less mindlessly beaurocratic than we currently have within the EU.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Loving this bit : "I voted to stay in the Common Market in 1975. I did not vote for a political union, I did not expect us to hand over sovereignty to the EU. I certainly did not expect unaccountable leaders in Brussels to govern over us".
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
"['Call me Dave' said that] 44% of UK output is exported to Europe but only 7% of European output is exported to the UK.... Yes, thats right, he was comparing 44% of one country against combined imports from the total output of 27 other countries in an arguement to suggest that Europe can do without us as we amount for only an insignificant 7% of their output where we cannot do without Europe so there will be no way that they will be rushing to arrange trade agreements with us if we leave."
44% is a higher percentage than 7% - so he was conveniently forgetting to point out that (using arbitrary numbers to illustrate the point) 44% of 500 (220) is smaller than 7% of of 5000 (350); the percentages are meaningless because (as you say, one country versus 27) it's a comparison between apples and staplers.
As you say, though, both sides are as bad as one another - playing loose with facts and figures, exaggerations, speculating (aka guessing) about what will happen but spouting their guesses as definite facts, and so on.
They're actually putting me off voting altogether, and just saying "Sod it, what happens happens!"
What I'd like to see is a straightforward list of *definite* changes there will be: I haven't a clue, for example, if leaving will affect VAT reverse charging. Simple things like that.
(To be fair, that sort of information is probably out there, somewhere, I just haven't sought it out.)
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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software
(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)
Am I right in thinking that figure includes stuff shipped to Amsterdam, which then goes out to non european countries? I read it somewhere early on, but can't find it now.
Yesterday, the focus was on what happens to Northern Ireland and Eire if we come out of Europe. There would need to be border controls on every road to and Northern Ireland benefits greatly from EU subsidies to farmers. I don't know the answer to the former, but the latter we could provide exactly the same subsidy from the money we save in not sending it to Europe.
And another bonus I found out yesterday is we get our fishing waters back. That'll help our own fishermen tremendously.
Unfortunately I'm away in a fortnight so won't be voting, but it would have been out.
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John
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I reccon that we are getting whatever statistics suit the politician concerned John.
The other way around I know that a lot of stuff goes from China to Poland which is cheaper to land and then is free to be moved around the EU.
There are even companies in poland that do minimal (and I mean really minimal) work to complete items from China so that they can say manufactured in the EU.
Pretty sure that the 7% is also going to include products that fit into that category.
A lot of the information that I've heard bandied around about EU subsidies to farmers is using very old data. In recent years it's been reduced dramatically to around £70 per acre which isn't going to swing farmers towards staying in.
Also, did you hear the Unilever interview the other day?
The head of Unilever was talking on Channel 4 about how prices would rise and gave the example of walls icecream because of increased tariffs of diary imports... I'm surprised that nobody at C4 picked up on why if milk is more expensive to import do they not then buy British milk that helps British farmers and avoids import duties all together?
The Unilver guy was argueing to stay but his arguement was pure gold for the leave campaign.
I think that I mentioned about fishermen in Johnny's EU thread. I find the irony with that one that at the moment you can have scenario's where Brittish ships are not allowed out to sea whilst Spanish fleets that fish using huge nets with smaller holes that take absolutely everything from the water even the youngest fish are out there harvesting our waters.
Doesn't take much guessing but I'm firmly of a mind that the country will be much better outside of Europe.
My sister on the other hand lives in France and still gets to vote and she is voting to stay in so all that my vote is really doing is annulling hers.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
The way I see it is that there will be no major difference.
Seems to me the those running these campaigns do not even know what will be after the fact.
Depending upon your lifestyles, wealth etc shows which way is better. Stay in - a benefits b loses, leave, and b benefits a loses.
Not keen on a Norway set up - Not being able to sit at the table.
Not keen on not having the ECJ.
Not fussed about immigration, any change there will not benefit any UK nationals until the next generation, as obviously nothing will happen retrospectively.
Definitely not in favour of Dave and George having nobody to answer to - the smugness...although expect a Tory revolt soon.
At the end of the day, whatever we end up with will be a hell of a lot better than some poor folks on the planet.
Maybe it is better the devil you know, than the one you don't.
I'm not impressed with the 'In' scaremongering, using terrorism and security issues, that is all BS.
What is 'really' annoying me at the moment is TV interviewers not allowing the interviewee, whether In or Out to speak -- Grrrr
At the start of the campaign I didn't really know which way to go, after all the bull, I still do not know. Time is ticking!
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Johnny - Owner of an overly-active keyboard.
A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
This thing about not having a seat at the top table. Apparently, there are lots of tables further up the food chain from which the EU gets the crumbs. Amongst these are the ISO, WTO, UNECE from which standards are handed down to the regional trading blocks like the E.U. where regulations and standards are given a blue and gold stars, rubber stamp.
I don't think this referendum will solve much either. It's not like we're being asked if we want to be part of a United States of Europe. We'll just carry on being semi detached from the E.U. whether we Brexit and join the EEA or remain.
Hey. In all honesty after X amount of bull I've just lost interest. How bad is that? The ITV debates haven't been debates, I was expecting a Cameron vs Nige, or even better Cameron vs Boris - not half an hour each with the audience. The lies and spin have been a real turn off for me. I'm more interested in following the US presidential elections - that will affect us more....
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Johnny - Owner of an overly-active keyboard.
A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.
I lost interest months ago, not in the voting (I will be doing that), but in the usual rubbish being thrown at us in the press, by the politicians, assaulting my post box daily and what pees me off more, all addressed to the man of the house, aka my son. Plus talk about wheeling out the has beens old guard. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't wheel Maggy out from beyond the grave.
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
I'll be glad when the dust has settled. I've not seen any of the debates but I've heard interviews on the radio. My sister has made up her mind based on some random person's ridiculous thoughts on Facebook, smh. Similar to Johnny, I don't like that Cameron et al would have no-one to answer to. The Norwegian and Swiss models aren't all they're cracked up to be. And I shudder at the racists and xenophobes among the Brexiters, next they'll be wanting to 'build a wall'...
And I shudder at the racists and xenophobes among the Brexiters
Hi Christina,
that's exactly the sort of association that the remain camp has been trying to instill in the minds of voters in an attempt to ignore the flawed economic arguements that the remain camp has been using.
If anything the media's attempts to use immigration as the main issue has been working in favour of the remain camp as for the most part they are very down market arguements.
Similarly, the Governments paniced attempts to scare people into remaining with easily disproven "facts" is working well for the Brexit camp.
All that we can hope is that come the 23rd people will vote based on the fact that no matter what race or religion they may be, they are first and foremost British and if they want to influence the politics of this country it is best done outside of Europe rather than in a system where decisions affecting their lives are made undemocratically by people in Brussels that they had nothing to do with electing.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
