Maths teacher wants to retrain - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

ccccc · Newbie

Maths teacher wants to retrain

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi,

welcome to the forum but please add your first name to your signiture as it doesn't feel right responding to a userid.

you will make more money, have more job security and do less hours as a maths teacher... The students that you work with are also possibly better behaved than many clients that you will encounter when you go beyond your circle of freinds and colleagues.

If like many of the regulars on here you love the subject matter rather than this being about financial reward then being good at maths is only a tiny part of it. Also completing forms without the knowledge base that you need to support that can be seriously problematic.

What is needed, what is permitted and what is legal are strangely mixed up in this business.

Anyone can set up as a bookkeeper or even an accountant without any prior knowledge or experience (insolvency and Audit are protected in statute but other areas are not) ... Believe me that if you go down this path you will encounter books prepared by such people. There are restrictions on what sort of bookkeeper or accountant you can call yourself. For example you couldn't throw words such as Chartered or Certified around without bit of paper to back that up.

Respected professional bodies such as the AAT give you a basic knowledge base in the field that you have to continue to build on through continued professional development throuighout your entire career. On average gaining AAT will take you about two years.... But.... There is no law to state that you have to be qualified to offer your services.

Now, why you ask are there not millions of bookkeepers running around ofdfering their services?

Glad you asked.

What you do have to have to offer your services to the public (even freinds) is Money Laundering cover. If you don't you can suffer two years in prison and a potentially unlimited fine (MLR comes under anti terrorism legislation).

Again, anyone can apply to HMRC for MLR cover (costs a couple of hundred pounds) provided that they do not have a criminal record and have never been bankrupt but as you are a teacher anyway I assume that such checks are immaterial as equivalents will have been performed when you took your current role.

Now, here's a nasty one. PII (Professional Indemnity Insurance). Without it you are exposed to putting a client back in the position that they would have been in had you not made a mistake (in the eye's of a court, not your own eye's). That can be REALLY expensive so people need PII insurance even though there is no legal requirement to have it.

The small print of the PII insurance is that it will only cover you to perform tasks that you are qualified and experienced in, so basically tieing you to being a qualified member of a professional body even though being a qualified bookkeeper or accountant in order to work in the field is not actually in statute.

Don't attempt to trade without PII or you could lose your house. Also don't expect that freinds and colleagues would not take you to court simply because of a personal relationship. If they lose thousands in fines, penalties and surcharges to HMRC due to a mistake that you made then freindship will often go straight out of the window as they demand that they be reimbursed for what may be a very small mistake.

In short, take two years to get qualified with the AAT doing the two tax papers as options then set up self employed with a good knowledge of applicable accounting and tax regulations (maths really is the tiniest part of this. Even bookkeeping seems closer to studying law than maths).

Hope that helps,

kindest regards,

Shaun.

p.s. not for one moment suggesting that you are ready to fill out P87 for others yet but when you are remember that P87's are only good up to £2.5k before the teachers need to be on self assessment. They need all of the receipts and need to be able to evidence that the items were purchased wholly, necessarily and exclusively for the purpose of their work (i.e. no use of home / home office expenses as they are employee's of the school, not self employed).

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Not been here for a while, nice new site...well done BKN.

Hi ccccc,

The above is correct in that via AAT, to be able to practice on your own offering any taxation services, you need to complete their Level 4 qualification and you are looking at 2-3 years of study for that. The AAT also now have their new qualified bookkeeper status (AATQB), which you can achieve on completion of their Level 3 bookkeeping or accounting qualifications. This covers you for the completion of accounts for sole traders and partnerships, but not self-assessment taxation.

The ICB is also one to consider, where you could complete their Level 2 & 3 Bookkeeping & Accounting qualifications and also their Self Assessment Taxation qualification. This could be done in around 6 months (or even quicker) and the MLR cover through them would allow you to complete accounts for sole traders, partnerships & not for profit organisations. You would also be able to complete self assessments if you complete their SAT qualification.

Good luck with whatever route you take.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Brian McVean wrote:
Not been here for a while, nice new site...well done BKN.

Hi ccccc,

The above is correct in that via AAT, to be able to practice on your own offering any taxation services, you need to complete their Level 4 qualification and you are looking at 2-3 years of study for that. The AAT also now have their new qualified bookkeeper status (AATQB), which you can achieve on completion of their Level 3 bookkeeping or accounting qualifications. This covers you for the completion of accounts for sole traders and partnerships, but not self-assessment taxation.

The ICB is also one to consider, where you could complete their Level 2 & 3 Bookkeeping & Accounting qualifications and also their Self Assessment Taxation qualification. This could be done in around 6 months (or even quicker) and the MLR cover through them would allow you to complete accounts for sole traders, partnerships & not for profit organisations. You would also be able to complete self assessments if you complete their SAT qualification.

Good luck with whatever route you take.

So what's tempted you back then Brian after being MIA for many many many months? Do you training bods have an annual alarm clock set to come back on BKN as we had fellow Mr Campbell back too earlier this month although he has gone quiet again (Dave wake up!)

A bit of over egging timescales there I think, but even ignoring that fact it's showing the difference in the actual quality of the subject matter being taught.

You can of course do the AAT all the way through in less than the timescale suggested here.

I would go so far as to say someone should also be looking at ATT after the AAT.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

I just saw somebody looking for advice, Joanne, nothing more sinister than that smile . As for my timing guidelines, these are quite accurate, but it does depend on how much time a student can devote to their study. Also, if we compare like for like in terms of minimum practicing requirements of AAT & ICB the ICB coverage is actually greater when you look at the practical aspects of bookkeeping & accounting.

Edited to 'minimum'

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 11:02:45 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Brian McVean wrote:
. Also, if we compare like for like in terms of minimum practicing requirements of AAT & ICB the ICB coverage is actually greater when you look at the practical aspects of bookkeeping & accounting.
Edited to 'minimum'

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 11:02:45 PM

But what about the other 100 or so people who have wandered through looking for advice Since you were last on? confuse wink

re the above, how the heck do you come to that?

Brian McVean · Senior Member

I've been busy, Joanne, that's all and having a full knowledge of both syllabuses helps (AATQB vs AICB).

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Brian McVean wrote:
if we compare like for like in terms of minimum practicing requirements of AAT & ICB the ICB coverage is actually greater when you look at the practical aspects of bookkeeping & accounting.

Hi Brian,

You need to expand upon that as at first glance it seems completely arse about tit.

Are you comparing the ICB to the new AAT bookkeeping qualification or the AAT accounting qualification through level IV?

Seems to me as though chalk and cheese are being compared if the latter but I would take your point on the former.... But then in general people here don't tend to talking in terms of the AAT bookkeeping qualification as that would seem a little like comparing ACCA-X with ACCA.

p.s. edited as my fingers seem to go faster than my keyboard!

-- Edited by Shamus on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 11:45:46 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Brian said 'mI've been busy, Joanne, that's all and having a full knowledge of both syllabuses helps (AATQB vs AICB)'m

I think that is very misleading. You just said yourself that the AATQB qualification doesn't allow someone to do what the poster is actually looking for. That qualification was certainly not what was being suggested by either Shaun or I to the poster and just serves to confuse. Plus how can something that takes less time to study be providing more in content and knowledge than one that takes longer, unless you are suggesting of course that all AAT students are a bit slow to learn? Also, unless I misunderstand, Ideal schools do not provide the crucial level 4 AAT training so you can't surely suggest you have full knowledge of both full courses. Never mind the anecdotal evidence that many ICBers are now taking the AAT qualification and having to start at level 3 of the AAT.

As usual I would add this is not me suggesting there aren't some great ICBers out there who know their stuff, just as much as there are bad AAT people.

Edited to add Brian's quote in as Shaun snook in a response as I was typing.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 11:51:21 PM

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

Honestly, I'm only trying to give the original poster an idea of what's available to her based on her ambition to be self employed offering self assessment tax returns. In my two previous posts I did state it was minimum qualification requirement for self employment and AATQB v AICB.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Joanne,

Really, there is no need to become so defensive. In no way was I critising Shauns advice and I agree that the Full AAT qualification is of a higher professional standing than ICB. However, this thread is to help the original poster and by offering a suitable alternative option he can now ponder his next move. We have no idea of his preferred timescales and he may well go for the full AAT, that would be great. But if he would rather make the change in career sooner rather than later, he's now aware that there are alternatives.

Signing off for the night now folkes, good night smile

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Thursday 29th of September 2016 08:12:23 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that my analogy of ACCA-X vs ACCA was quite apt for this scenario.

AATQB vs AICB is as you state a lot closer match but I have to admit, as yet I've not advised anyone to pursue the AAT bookkeeping qualification largely due to the bulk of people looking to be bookkeepers are in reality looking to be entry level accountants servicing micro businesses which is why the full AAT qualification tends to be advised.

If someone genuiney wanted to stop at trial balance then I think that there is nothing to choose between the usual suspects but beyond that to my mind AAT stands head and shoulders over the competition.

The issue with us bandying these letters when we are talking with people new to this is that they will have no idea of the differences bettween the likes of MICB, AICB, AIAB, MIAB, MAAT, MAAT MIP, FMAAT, AATQB, etc. where the likes of ourseves know the huge chasms that exist between some of those suffixes.

Surely the safest approach for anyone is to do the industry standard qualification (AAT) working their way up to MAAT before deciding which body they want to practice under.

I've nothing against anyone practicing under the ICB banner as a self employed bookkeeper but if they got there via AAT training (the full qualification, not AATQB) would not that be the best preparation for their future career enabling them to swap and change allegiences between any professional body at will. Something that they would not be able to do if they started out as ICB due to the lack of NQF recognition?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Joanne,

oops, off to bed myself now as the matchsticks holding my eye's open seem about ready to break so just time to say night and hope to chat tomorrow.

The issue as indicated in my previous post is that the people such as the original poster cannot hope to understand the difference that a single letter or ommission of one can make so its very easy for htem to make costly mistakes based upon mistaken assumptions.

I hope that they are reading what is being debated here very carefully and understanding which qualification is being held up as the defacto qualification for both bookkeepers and SME accountants no matter whether they are employed or self employed.

Laters,

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Really Brian there is no need to be so condescending. Defensive! Oh you do make me laugh!!

You dropped several comments in which are misleading, stating things in separate posts that a newbie would put together and get 5 from your 2+2. I just challenged your comments because you are mixing up qualifications, suggesting you are an authority on both And comparing apples to pears. Even now in your latest answer you refer to 'FULL AAT qualification is of a higher standing that AAT'. Well that makes no sense to a newbie, never mind throwing the rest in the mix.

Be interesting to see if the actual poster will ever log back in to see the advice he has been given as not a sign of them yet.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 29th of September 2016 01:14:27 AM

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Good morning Joanne,

Thank you for pointing out my type; I have now edited this. Clearly, comparing AAT with AAT was an error.

Following my 'defensive' comment I see you've deleted your initial response and if I had misread your previous reply to me, then I'm sorry, but it did seem that you were trying to pick holes in what I had previously posted:

I think that is very misleading I can't see where I was misleading; my timings are accurate and reading it back the comparisions were made based on minimum requirement to enable the student to practice. You just said yourself that the AATQB qualification doesn't allow someone to do what the poster is actually looking for . That qualification was certainly not what was being suggested by either Shaun or I to the poster and just serves to confuse I'm aware that Shaun did not mention AATQB and you were not involved in the thread when I first posted. Shauns post was good, I agreed with it, but perhaps a 2 year period of study was not what ccccc was looking for, so I provided a suitable alternative for him to consider. Plus how can something that takes less time to study be providing more in content and knowledge than one that takes longer, unless you are suggesting of course that all AAT students are a bit slow to learn? I've explained my comparrison above and I cannot see anywhere that would indicate that I was being at all negative on the quality of AAT students. Indeed, we have plenty of our own and their results are a credit to them. Also, unless I misunderstand, Ideal schools do not provide the crucial level 4 AAT training so you can't surely suggest you have full knowledge of both full courses You are correct, well spotted, but this does not seem to have affected student intake, which meets our expectations. I am, however fully aware of the Level 4 syllabus, structure and approximate timings. Never mind the anecdotal evidence that many ICBers are now taking the AAT qualification and having to start at level 3 of the AAT. I'm not privvy to actual statistics on this but I know there is movement in both directions.

Hand on heart my reasons for posting were solely to make ccccc aware that there were alternatives, particularly if he had not anticipated a prolonged study period before making his career change. I may not have followed your own usual line of guidance, but that does not mean that what I provided was incorrect or misleading.

I do hope that ccccc takes something from this post and makes the best decision for him.

I wish you a productive day.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Brian,

my comment about AAT taking two years was just a gut feel average. Didn't Premier have someone a couple of years back who did the whole AAT qualification from scratch to MAAT in around six months?... Now thats commitment to study and a big well done whoever that was! (And Premie during the Nick and Neil era).

In my response I was considering that the poster was holding down a full time job in a not overly related career so I err'd on the side of caution at two years.

The above said, people should not shy away from that sort of commitment to their studies in order to give themselves the right foundations to move forwards.

I don't think that the whole concept of how quickly and cheaply people can get from no knowledge to their own practice is doing the industry any favours and I'm pretty sure that such will eventually result in the industry being far more regulated over who is allowed to prepare accounts and tax returns than it is at the moment.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that the sort of experience requirements of the higher bodies should be imposed on the lower ones but there does need to be some move away from asllowing peole to practice without any actual experience.

My suggestion would be that the ICB and IAB perhaps sets up something like a three month (in one chunk) boot camp where newly qualified members get to work in a real practice, doing real work and facing real clients which needs to be signed off by a qualified accountant before they are allowed to practice on their own. That would be a walk in the park compared to the six years verifiable experience required from some of the higher bodies, however I can see that the issue with that suggestion is that the attraction of the bookkeeping qualifications for many is that they are built around the concept of minimal disruption to one's day to day activities such as raising children. However, how can one genuinely offer your services to the public with no prior experience in the field?

There would be a real opportunity there for training companies to partner with suitible practices to the benefit of all. Training companies get more money (although possibly less students), practices get free labour, new bookkeepers get properly prepared for the real world of practice.

I think that if the ICB / TL / Ideal etc. took a pole they would find that its not that students do not want to gain experience before practicing but rather than nobody can find anyone who will take on ICB people with no prior experience in order for them to gain the neccessary experience to practice.

Just a suggestion there that I hope is taken in the constructive manner intended.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Morning boys.

Did you get your beauty sleep?

Just thought I would try to clarify my comments.

The issue I have is the confusion that arises when the qualifications as far as a newbie is concerned get shuffled around in the conversation. So for example, Brian, you mentioned....

- It takes 2-3 years to get to Level 4 of the AAT.

- You can do ICB 2/3 and SAT in 6 months.

- Then there is the 'like for like'.......'coverage is greater' comment.

- Plus the 'having full knowledge of both syllabusus'

Now put your mind into the head of someone who has no idea what you are talking about and they could glean from that it will take me 6months if I do ICB and their coverage of the subject is better than that of the AAT.

Of course those of us who have been around the block a bit know that your use of the word 'minimum' with regards to the practice requirements for the AAT for example is not referring to a qualification that will actually get the poster doing what they want ie you were referring to the AATQB qualification which doesnt allow self assessment tax, never mind the rest.

Thats what I mean by it being misleading.

I think we all are sometimes guilty of using initials and acronyms that are ingrained and forget that we are sometimes responding to folk who might think the whole thing is double dutch.

I know you disagree with my line of guidance which is seen as trying to push people into furthering themselves as much as they can - why not aim for the stars? So then you can do the job better. With increased earnings potential. To my mind there are far too many who think they can do it, when they actually have no idea of the extent of the subject matter. The more I learn about the industry the more I think those not chartered shouldnt get involved with final accounts and tax to be perfectly frank. But unless and until such things are set in law, we live in a world where anyone with a calculator can have a go! Maybe one day HMRC will wake up and smell the coffee when they realise how much tax they are not collecting when they check out a few self assessments that have been completed by individuals with no knowledge. But fortunately for many - HMRC doesnt have enough staff! But as this particular poster has shown he isnt afraid of pushing himself further to get the recognised exams to take him further in his career, so why should this be any different (degree to teach within schools v no qualification and being a private tutor), which re-enforces my suggestion. Never mind the getting work from Accountants being built into the equation.

What is really worrying is the way some training companies (and Im not suggesting yours Brian as I have no first hand knowledge of your companies methods) go about the training of some courses in that there are lots of comments about 'you just need this to pass the exam', dont worry about this part, you wont need it for the exam, or just parrot fashion learn it and you will get through the exam. Then they just completely flounder in the real world. Or worse still just get on with it and do it wrong and have to have their mess sorted by someone else. But thats a debate for another day (well one thats also been had many times before!)

Have a good day yourself.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 29th of September 2016 11:43:17 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
Did you get your beauty sleep?

Yes, but looking in the mirror this morning obviously nowhere near enough! lol.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Did you get your beauty sleep?

Yes, but looking in the mirror this morning obviously nowhere near enough! lol.

Ahhhh, but there is always a woman who will love you.

Your Mum biggrin biggrin

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
Maybe one day HMRC will wake up and smell the coffee when they realise how much tax they are not collecting when they check out a few self assessments that have been completed by individuals with no knowledge. But fortunately for many - HMRC doesnt have enough staff!

Hi Joanne,

Even though HMRC don't have enough staff they do get around to visiting businesses eventually when they get their back taxes plus some.

Have you considered that HMRC may want to increase yield via penalties, interest and surcharges against anyone who makes incorrect filing so its actually in their interest for people with limited understanding to be completing their returns.

HMRC get their money. The business gets to sue their bookkeeper to get back their money. PII companies look for any excuse they can not to pay out and the general one is that the person was not sufficiently experienced in the work that they were doing for a client.

Bookkeeper / under qualified accountant loses their shirt. Everyone else is happy.

Why would HMRC want for businessees to get their returns correct and lose out that extra income? (currently well in excess of £1 billion in extra income from penalties for the country each year)

p.s. I concur with your post Joanne, I just thought that I would seperate the above bit out for further emphasis.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Did you get your beauty sleep?

Yes, but looking in the mirror this morning obviously nowhere near enough! lol.
Ahhhh, but there is always a woman who will love you.
Your Mum

Did I ever tell you about the time that I came home from school to find that my parents had moved house... lol.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Maybe one day HMRC will wake up and smell the coffee when they realise how much tax they are not collecting when they check out a few self assessments that have been completed by individuals with no knowledge. But fortunately for many - HMRC doesnt have enough staff!
Hi Joanne,

Have you considered that HMRC may want to increase yield via penalties, interest and surcharges against anyone who makes incorrect filing so its actually in their interest for people with limited understanding to be completing their returns.
HMRC get their money.

Sorry - I clearly didnt get enough of the brain restorative sleep last night! You are so right. Wouldnt mind but cant recall the number of times Ive said that RTI is just a money making scheme for HMRC given they ignore most of the information reported anyway. So the same is true of other taxes and the only reason they are now bringing in quarterly reporting.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Did you get your beauty sleep?

Yes, but looking in the mirror this morning obviously nowhere near enough! lol.
Ahhhh, but there is always a woman who will love you.
Your Mum

Did I ever tell you about the time that I came home from school to find that my parents had moved house... lol.

I didnt know whether to laugh or cry at that one. lol.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
The more I learn about the industry the more I think those not chartered shouldnt get involved with final accounts and tax to be perfectly frank. But unless and until such things are set in law, we live in a world where anyone with a calculator can have a go! Maybe one day HMRC will wake up and smell the coffee when they realise how much tax they are not collecting when they check out a few self assessments that have been completed by individuals with no knowledge.

Hi Joanne

HMRC have no wish for accountants/bookkeepers to get involved with tax returns, and (imo) the new mtd is aimed at convincing taxpayers it's a piece of cake to do their own returns, aided and abetted by those lovely cloud people, where it's a case of press a button and hey presto!

We all know it aint that simple, and I see a good opportunity for those who do have the knowledge to then sort out the mess and submit the correct returns

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi John
These people have no clue about accruals accounting and basis periods and we know most of them shove stuff through that isn't allowable so a ticking time bomb for taxpayers.

Oh and don't we know all about the mess they can make. We can make good money sorting out the messes, although sometimes I dream of a nice simple easy clean job......then I wake up. biggrin

ccccc · Newbie

Hi Shaun, Brian and Joanne

Thank you for all your ideas. You have given me a lot to think about.

Kind regards

Chris (sorry I forgot to put my name last time)