Newbie Saying Hello - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Martin S · Veteran Member

Newbie Saying Hello

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Martin,

welcome to the forum and glad you found us.

Whatever you are doing for a career at the moment don't give it up until you have the client base to support the move as this business is a lot more cut throat with far fewer clients available than some training companies would have you believe.

Also when you start your business you will find the reality very different to your studies.

The above warnings aside its something that can be very rewarding (mentally more than financially) for those who take to the subject matter. Good luck with your studies and looking forwards to chatting as you progress.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Martin
Welcome to the forum.

A question for you for starters - what sage will you be using for your exams?

Martin S · Veteran Member

Hi,

Thanks for the welcome, I've been a chef for the last 30 years, so I'm ready for a complete change, What I plan to do when it comes to the time to switch is to do it gradual where I can slowly reduce my kitchen hours and slide into it and build up the bookkeeping side gently, so like in cooking the timing will have to be just perfect in terms of when to say bye to one career completely and carry on building a new one, I realise I will have a lot to learn though as regards building up a client base.

Re which sage, it's sage one accounting that is used for the courses and exams I'm doing, I realise I'll probably have to move onto Sage 50 in the real world but that was one of the things I was going to ask about actually, as I'll be aiming for the sole trader/small business sector, is it possible for Sage one accounting partner edition to be sufficient for these size businesses and work in the price of the monthly subscriptions into the bill pricing? I know cloud based software seems to be a bit marmite from what I gather between bookkeepers.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Welcome to the forum Martin. Others will be able to advise on sage as I don't use it but I have read sage one is quite clunky.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Martin,

Personally where possible I wouldn't use sage at all as its a hell of a cost to b born by your business and you have to pay for every client (well, in bandings anyway). For some clients Sage is the best software for the job, for others the client has already bought it and you use theirs. If the client doesn't have it, and doesn't really need it then personally my preference is for VT Transaction+ which is software designed for professionals who understand double entry and it's also unlimited clients for a single annual subscription.

Thats nothing against sage... Well, except for the fact that I see absolutely no point in nominal codes or closing periods off and I'm very anti client tax, but those aside VT isn't great for all businesses and box stackers and shifters who require stock control are better to stick with Sage.

There is also software such as Quickbooks although they seem to be moving away from the desktop to pay per client models.

When pricing you need to be aware of your competitors prices and as you say, take into account the price of software as unless the client already has the software that you will be using at their premises then its usual that we bare the cost of it ourselves if the software belongs to us but pass the cost on if the client asks you to buy and install specific software.

Which brings me onto the cloud. Have a look around this site for discussions about it. People such as myself and Vince have our flags very much in the anti cloud camp, others such as Marks has arguements for the cloud. I won't repeat the arguements here but you'll find the cloud threads pretty easy to find and provided that the threads you find are not more than a year old you're welcome to keep posting in them.

Thirty years as a Chef... You deserve a medal matey. I've been in some very high pressure roles but that career path would definitely not be for me as if anyone spoke to me the way that young Chefs get treated in that industry they would be leaving through a window with their teeth in a small paper bag.... I've just realised why one never see's windows in Kitchens on Gordon Ramsays Kitchen Nightmares, lol.

Transitioning across to this rather than going for a big bang approach is a wise move. Be aware that you are joining at a time of constant change and the biggest shake up to our industry is on the horizon with the move towards making tax digital which may temporarily remove some small businesses from the lower end of the market where they fall for the Governments spin that they can do this themselves.

Peronally I think thgat there will be turmoil through to 2020 at leastbut then things should I hope start to settle back down as business owners realise that there is a lot more to this than they realised and that their businesses are suffering because they are spending all of their time on work neccessary for compliance (which I expect a lot of them to get wrong to the advantage of HMRC and Government coffers).

Welcome to the forum and look forwards to chatting during your studies,

all the best,

Shaun.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Martin
I asked about Sage One with regards to the exams as there was an incident last week at a high profile exam centre where sage one was not working as it should be and Im pretty sure due to the response from sage that this could not possibly be the first time this has happened and there may be some students out there who are convinced they have answered the questions exactly as it should have been answered only to get errors showing up in their submissions and potentially failing because of it. (Im sure there are also a fair few students who think they have answered something correctly and just havent!)

Anyway I wanted to highlight the issue to you (and of course anyone else taking exams using this software - eg AAT CPAG module).

Sage One is the cloudy software and they are working on the software all the time, trying to take on board people's suggestions (but failing massively as ive highlighted before) and as a result doing a fair few regular updates.

So first piece of advice is absolutely stay on top of the changes as the reports you may well be asked for in an exam may not exist as they are being asked in your training notes. EG purchase ledger day book excluding purchase ledger returns. Used to exist, but since the introduction of 'quick entries' - you would need more than one report to show all purchase invoices. For exam purposes just the QE i/v purchase day book may be enough if you are asked to just use the QE routine when keying them in. TOTALLY and utterly ridiculous for businesses who in reality use both and just want one bloody report (and this was fed back by me to sage one, MONTHS ago!)

Anyway - biggest issue and the one that cropped up last week was the Bank reconciliation in the exam. You are asked to do a rec, you tick of the items and the information at the bottom of the screen (debits/credits/Bank balance) are constantly changing as you tick the items. Not in the exam. So you will fail that question.

Now this might not affect every exam centre, but one to be aware of. If you come across ANYTHING that does not look as it should do - take screen prints and include them in your assessment pack with a note explaining why you have done this. I only say this because if you are the only one in the room doing the sage course that day and therefore the only one with an issue, the invigilator might not take your comments seriously, thinking its just you who knows not what you are doing!

I am aware of two people who did the exam last week and were not able to upload any reports at all into their assessment packs. In that case - do not be afraid to let the centre know immediately.

Sage's response to the Bank rec issue was as follows:-

We have had some reports where the totals have not been updating when it comes to reconciling and it seems to be web browser related, could you please try an alternative web browser to see if this works, you could also try and clear down cookies and cache.Unfortunately different browsers can issue updates out of our control that can potentially cause issues.

This issue is being investigated by this particular exam centre, but has been fed up the line to the AAT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the issue of using sage for your business - I would suggest you do not. When you become a bookkeeper you will want a system that is fast for data entry - sageone is not. Im a big sage fan - use various sage 50 software modules and have one client who uses sage one. They have a lot of entries and its like wading through treacle, despite what sage will say about data feeds from banks helping speed up the time, biggest issue is the time lag between keying something in (eg supplier name or a nominal code) and the cusor moving into the next box. Might not seem much when you try it, but believe me its a lifetime when you have a lot of keying to do. Very slow to switch between screens and dreadful reports. Oh and now they seem to have introduced a change to the date whereby you have to key it in full ie full 2016, instead of 16!

Plus Im not convinced the year end Accounts production is as it should be.

I wouldnt suggest you purchase sage 50 - its very expensive and cost prohibitive to those just setting out with one or two clients. BUT I would if you can get a working knowledge of it as you may find clients you will visit who use it.

I also wouldnt be prescriptive as to what people use - you tell them your practice only works on xyz and there will be clients you will lose out on.

Sorry its a bit of a rushed response

-- Edited by Cheshire on Monday 10th of October 2016 09:09:03 AM

worstoftheroses · Member

Sorry to threadjack, but thankyou for this information Joanne. I have CPAG coming up in a couple of months, so it's good to know about this. The assessment centre I'm going to apparently use both Sage Instant AND Sage One so I'm a bit confused as to how to prepare for that one!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Desna
No worries about threadjacking (what a great expression), I will just be glad if it helps someone. Where are you sitting this one? Plus which one are you training on? Have you any knowledge of sage now (and if so which one)?

Sorry - thats a lot of Qs!

worstoftheroses · Member

'Threadjacking' comes from another forum I used to be on, so I can't take the credit, but it's an effective term

I'm taking my CPAG at Kaplan Manchester. I've done/am doing my other level 2 exams at a centre closer to me, but it looks as if there's only a very restricted number of centres offer CPAG, not sure why. After reading your previous post I checked the AAT forums and someone else had posted about some glitches they had (using Sage One), so this is something that really needs to be addressed if loads of people are going to fail (expensive) assessments through no fault of their own. I haven't used any Sage products yet...I'm going to download the trial versions nearer the time of the assessment to get used to them!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Desna
Thats a bit of a trek for the exam for you (so its also added expense!). I would check if the sage instant they use at Kaplan is the online version or not and whether the one you can access as a trial is the same. Sage have brought out Sage essentials which I have heard is the new version of instant, BUT I dont know if that is true or not. The issue you have is that the sageone software is constantly changing, no idea about the instant/essentials one. I would suggest you download a trial version of the same software that your training provider uses (probably sageone), do intensive learning for the month of the free trial and either go for your exam straight away, or if you think you need more than a month to learn, download the free trial again a month before your exam (with a different email address - just set up another email!).

Also, because this one is classed as a 'project exam' ie not marked by the exam system as you go, then dont forget you can get Kaplan just to do invigilation of this exam (and only pay them £35!) as your training provider will mark it (for a fee). Or you pay Kaplan about £50 on top of the exam fee for marking it (unless you are a Kaplan student). So consider not booking in the usual way, speak to Kaplan in Manchester and they will guide you through.

Good luck with the level. If you need any help with anything, including sage - you know where to come!

-- Edited by Cheshire on Tuesday 11th of October 2016 08:51:36 AM

worstoftheroses · Member

Thanks the tips Joanne

Ah, I already booked it online

As I'm an unattached student I have no official training provider. But thanks for the tips - I have sussed out where to download the trial versions from so will do that nearer the time for intensive practice! By the way - AAT have sent out an email this morning about the upload proces (presumably what's causing these issues) putting responsibility firmly on the candidate to ensure they have iploaded evidence and apparently they've added a reminder screen so you don't forget to do it... (Apols for poor formatting of these posts - when posting from my phone carriage returns don't seem to be recognised by forum!)

Martin S · Veteran Member

Thanks for the replies everyone, they have been far more in-depth than I'd expect & that's exactly what I need, I know I'm an extreme novice with a lot to learn, but I've found Sage one quite good, I've never had a problem with speed with it, although saying that it was much slower at the exam a few weeks ago than I'm used too, I work on a Mac plus my wifi is fast at home so presumed it was because the exam centre was using PC's/poor wifi? So much so I ran out of time and missed out the bank reconciliation which was the final task, so I'm expecting a fail when I get the level 2 results.

How do I go about learning Sage 50, is it easy enough to self-teach? Will there be any similarities at all to Sage one? one of the things I like about Sage is the layout, compared to the program my mum uses for her business, thats called money manager & the screen always looks cluttered, I don't think I'd like that at all.

-- Edited by Martin S on Wednesday 12th of October 2016 12:27:18 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Martin S wrote:
I work on a Mac plus my wifi is fast at home so presumed it was because the exam centre was using PC's/poor wifi?

Anotheer heretic, lol.

Now few things divide people more than those two old rivalries. Not all PCs are created equal. i.e. you couldn't compare an i3 to an i7 processor or a Dell Optiplex to a Dell XPS. Coming from a Corporate background of course I'm biased as nobody in serious business uses anything other than PCs (Yes, I'm talking at you Marketing and HR people, lol) although a fair chunk of that is down to the software that people need and historic compatibiility issues (i.e. there is no version of VT Tranaction+ for MACs).

On the speed of input its not so much the speed of your machine as the concept behind the software of entering one thing at a time. You won't get a feel for that really until you have used the comparative desktop software (even on a Mac wink ). My impression is that cloud software is built around lighter users such as smaller business owners who use software incidental to their work rather than those who need to live on their accounting software such as ourselves.

That said some people on here have used cloud options successfully (ignoring the security and access issues) by automating whatever data input they can such as via bank feeds and receipt scanning software.

Got to go out to a clients now but hope to be back on later to continue this conversation.

Tut... MACs compared to PCs, what next Toyota Prius's compared to BMW, lol

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

worstoftheroses wrote:
Thanks the tips Joanne Ah, I already booked it online As I'm an unattached student I have no official training provider. But thanks for the tips - I have sussed out where to download the trial versions from so will do that nearer the time for intensive practice! By the way - AAT have sent out an email this morning about the upload proces (presumably what's causing these issues) putting responsibility firmly on the candidate to ensure they have iploaded evidence and apparently they've added a reminder screen so you don't forget to do it... (Apols for poor formatting of these posts - when posting from my phone carriage returns don't seem to be recognised by forum!)

Hi Desna

The AAT email was in relation to a separate issue and Im disappointed they have not put a communication out with regards to the sage failure issue ( I will try to prod them again when I have two minutes to spare...if that ever happens, no idea what spare time is these days!)

I am though aware of some people who had issues with uploads due to sage sticking or pausing for longer periods than usual. Good invigilators will help make sure you have uploaded properly and some exam centres also tell you not to get rid of the folder you will have set up on the desktop to store everything until you are ready for upload, as they will then backup the work in case of system failure. Worth checking with individual exam centres. But always leave a good 15 minutes to ensure you have uploaded everything. Some exams you get extra time to do this, or some provide you with 15 minutes reading time at the start (for project exams only!), so that effectively should free up the required time at the end.

Just tell Kaplan nearer the time which sage you want to use and they will do the necessary for the exam!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Martin S wrote:
Thanks for the replies everyone, they have been far more in-depth than I'd expect & that's exactly what I need, I know I'm an extreme novice with a lot to learn, but I've found Sage one quite good, I've never had a problem with speed with it, although saying that it was much slower at the exam a few weeks ago than I'm used too, I work on a Mac plus my wifi is fast at home so presumed it was because the exam centre was using PC's/poor wifi? So much so I ran out of time and missed out the bank reconciliation which was the final task, so I'm expecting a fail when I get the level 2 results.
How do I go about learning Sage 50, is it easy enough to self-teach? Will there be any similarities at all to Sage one? one of the things I like about Sage is the layout, compared to the program my mum uses for her business, thats called money manager & the screen always looks cluttered, I don't think I'd like that at all.
-- Edited by Martin S on Wednesday 12th of October 2016 12:27:18 AM

Hi Martin

Not sure if Sage 50 works with Mac. Cant recall. Someone else might be able to advise.

There are absolutely no similarities between sage one and sage 50. Well, ok sage one does veer towards use of the same/similar nominal codes, but apart from that I cannot think of anything. In fact, I dont honestly think the same software developers are involved in both as they have got so very much wrong with sage one.

As Shaun indicates, what I meant with regards to speed relates to data entry, bulk transactions, short cut keys, the ability to copy lines without re-typing and yes the ability to put the start name of a supplier in (or a date) and the system not pick up the wrong one...which happens when you type too fast on sage one! If you are dealing with very small businesses with few transactions - sole traders and the like then you will probably not have a problem, but get anywhere near a wee bit of volume and youve completely had it. Lets put it this way - its the difference between using a Tesco so called chefs knife and a Victorinox! Nay better than a Victorinox, or a Shun or a Wusthof ...the old hand made Japanese (and a blunt one at that!)

There are courses you can do in Sage 50, but they can be expensive. To be honest - yes you can teach yourself up to a point, as each Sage 50 has two additional modules - Demonstration data module and a practice module. The practice ones are great as you can do anything you want in there and not do any kind of damage. Plus, unlike sageone you have the ability of being able to take a backup and actually use the backup if you fluff up the work after taking it. Handy for trialling stuff. Same with VT that Shaun mentioned, but the good thing about VT is that, whilst it looks a bit old fashioned, you can set up unlimited clients for the same fee, plus it provides for year end filings.

Only way you might be able to get practice on sage 50 is if you know someone who has it already and doesnt mind you using their practice data at their premises. Or doing a sage course.

Worth also remembering is that if clients stop paying their monthly subs then you lose access to the data. Believe me when I say - you will be the last to know they have done such a thing because rarely do clients think to involve us with their daft shenanigan thoughts before they act.

Besides at the new rate for sageone per months - what is it now £20 per, then why in hell would they not just get Sage Instant - much better software, more akin to sage 50 lower end products and have a perpetual licence for a one off fee - in fact less than 12mths subs and they can use it for many many many years.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 12th of October 2016 05:46:07 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Martin S wrote:
I work on a Mac plus my wifi is fast at home so presumed it was because the exam centre was using PC's/poor wifi?
Anotheer heretic, lol.

Tut... MACs compared to PCs, what next Toyota Prius's compared to BMW, lol

lol. Thought this pic was appropriate for this thread on the heretics theme....

oh and I saw this. But before you groan - who cares about fuel economy! You know my choice!!!!! wink

M3 vs Prius.jpg

Martin S · Veteran Member

I wasn't intending to start a Mac vs Pc thing, sorry, I could have worded it better, I apologise for that, it's each to their own I think with what machine they like to use, I did use pc's for years as well though, I think I never spent enough that's all looking back ( money saving Yorkshireman see, lol ) thus I just used to get frustrated with them freezing etc and been slow I suppose, I didn't really know what I was buying.

Anyway, going back to me needing more advice, so picture the scenario, Lets say I'm about to make the move to becoming a bookkeeper & lets say i've decided I wanted to use a Sage product, which one should I have in place for when client number 1 arrives? if sage one is out the window would I be better using Sage instant until I have enough clients to start using 50, or go in with 50 from day one?

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi again
You have to have one licence for each entity on sage, so buying sage instant or indeed sage 50 would involve you in buying several licences and having to guess how many you need and potentially paying a LOT of money out, or buying one licence and then having to add licences .....not sure if to can do that for sage instant, plus it might be an issue with sage 50 to do so if they have launched their next version. I think you can get two company version of instant, but that product is not built for scaling up. Sage 50 is, but then which of their products do you go for as you don't know what clients you are going to end up taking on. Eg I had basic sage 50 when I started which was great, excel when I took on clients involved in multiple currency/multi company environments plus ones using the Vat margin scheme so sage 50 pro was required.

Have a look at a couple of software providers for sage and check out their prices, then check out VT transaction plus pricing model.

Only other option if you really want sage 50 is to join their Accountants club, but again you pay for the number of clients on the system, I priced it up a couple of years ago and they wanted a minimum of £64per month for up to five companies. That was when sage one was £5 a month, so whilst I don't think it's gone up as much as sage one, I'm pretty sure it will have gone up!

Hey, don't worry about the MAC v PC thing, we love a load of banter on here, but you may well need to get a PC! wink

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Martin S wrote:
Anyway, going back to me needing more advice, so picture the scenario, Lets say I'm about to make the move to becoming a bookkeeper & lets say i've decided I wanted to use a Sage product, which one should I have in place for when client number 1 arrives? if sage one is out the window would I be better using Sage instant until I have enough clients to start using 50, or go in with 50 from day one?

Hi Martin

Unless it's changed, you can only use have one client on Sage Instant, but the product was withdrawn in January and has now been replaced by Sage 50 accounts essentials and is now on a monthly subscription £18 a month inc VAT) but again you can only have one client on it.

If you're going to use sage your only options I think are to use sage one at £24 a month per client or sage 50 plus at £72 a month with unlimited clients. Sage 50 would be the way to go for me, but like Joanne has pointed out you are beholden to sage who will put up prices whenever they feel like it.

I know Joanne has already suggested this but have a look at VT Transaction Plus. It really is a nifty bit of kit, costs around £150 one off payment and you can also have unlimited clients. It comes with a 60 day trial so have a play anyway even if you don't use it eventually

http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi John,

doesn't work on Macs though and Martin hasn't upgraded to a PC yet (lol, I'm so bad).

I didn't realise that Sage had changed their pricing for 50 to make unlimited clients more reasonable. If thats right £72 a month (£864 a year) puts them back on the radar as it is the defacto standard for this business even though I don't particularly like it very much (whose going to like anything else once they get used to VT!).

There is a bit of confusion in this thread about VT in that Joanne mentions accounts production but for proper accounts that would be VT Accounts rather than VT Transaction+, and VT Accounts carries an annual subscription rather than one off payments... Plus if you take the one off payment option you do miss out on updates after the first year (although there have been no major updates to the b ookkeeping software for a while. Pretty sure that the last big one was the universal input sheet.

Many accountants use VT Accounts combined with Sage 50 rather than using VT Transaction+. Personally I've never really undersdtood that as to have VT Accounts you have VT Transaction+ bundled in with it... Unless of course your clients are box stackers and shifters needing stock control which is the one area that VT+ falls short of Sage.

Personally there is no way that I would use Sage one... Still remember that in the Accountingweb software satisfaction survey a couple of years back it was the only software that I've ever seen get a negative score! That said, Sage did listen to that feedback and completely rewrote it... To software not compatible with the previous version.

Right, got to pop out again,

Laters.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote regarding VT Transaction + :
doesn't work on Macs though and Martin hasn't upgraded to a PC yet (lol, I'm so bad).

Hi Shaun
Isn't there a way to have a windows emulator on a mac, I seem to remember a friend of mine doing that for certain programs. He loved macs whereas I never got on with them at all (same goes for iphones and ipads)

Shamus wrote:
Plus if you take the one off payment option you do miss out on updates after the first year (although there have been no major updates to the b ookkeeping software for a while. Pretty sure that the last big one was the universal input sheet.

That because you can't improve on perfection. smile

The prices I quoted for sage were from the website this morning, and included VAT as I assume Martin is not vat registered.

-- Edited by Leger on Thursday 13th of October 2016 03:39:32 PM

-- Edited by Leger on Thursday 13th of October 2016 03:40:30 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi John
is the £72 for the Accountants club? Plus you said unlimited clients - oh my reckon they have been listening to the feedback then after two years of being bloody minded. Can you drop in the link where you looked please (sorry, being lazy, besides you know what their site is like!)

Hi Shaun
Legs suitably slapped for getting the pricing v models wrong for VT Trans + and Accounts - guess its cos Im in my first year and just paid for both!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Leger wrote:
Hi Shaun
Isn't there a way to have a windows emulator on a mac,

Lol, I'll never, ever know John wink

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Joanne,

it was that word unlimited that shocked me as well when I read it as its not like Sage to make things cheaper for us is it? Maybe they figure its a way to get people to sign up for the perpetual payment model before reverting to their old tricks.

I still think that their best line was when their excuse for a price hike was because accountants were complaining that their software was too cheap!!!! Can you ever imagine an accountant uttering tose words about software that they need to purchase?

Like you I'm interested to read the small print on that one as whilst if looking at it fresh it still seems damn expensive compared to VT, compared to their old pricing structures it seems really reasonable.

Can't believe that I'm being (almost) nice about Sage... I must be coming down with something.

Laters.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Shaun
Will persuade you to move back over to the dark side yet Mr Mod!

That or feel your forehead and suggest you go to the doctors!!!! wink

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
Hi John
is the £72 for the Accountants club? Plus you said unlimited clients - oh my reckon they have been listening to the feedback then after two years of being bloody minded. Can you drop in the link where you looked please (sorry, being lazy, besides you know what their site is like!)

Hi Shaun
Legs suitably slapped for getting the pricing v models wrong for VT Trans + and Accounts - guess its cos Im in my first year and just paid for both!

No problem http://shop.sage.co.uk/accounts.aspx Click on variants and it lists the 3 versions. Plus costs £50 per month + VAT (oh drat just realised I had the £60 figure in mind because I always add the VAT os I know what Im paying and then in my post I stuck VAT onto that, so its £60) Scroll to the bottom and it says 2 users, unlimited companies. Given both the expressions of shock you and Shaun have declared, have I somehow got that wrong?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Unfortunately I'm afraid to say that it's more expensive that you think John. If you go down that page a way it states number of companies and if you enter unlimited for a single user its £270 pcm (£3240 p.a. (£3744 with phone support)) VAT inclusive.

Those figures are more in line with the historic cost of Sage.

Joanne, fear not, cancel the doctors, my grip reality has been restored with the realisation that the Sage client tax remains in place.... VT it is for me then biggrin

VinceH · Expert

Good grief, yes, I've only just caught up with this thread - and reading it I almost died of shock at the idea of unlimited companies in a version of Sage for £72/month. Given my historic dispute with Sage over mishandling my email address, I'd still be unlikely in the extreme to consider it - but it did make me do a massive double take.

On the comparison table that you got the price from, John, the magic word is "from" on the second line of the table. It's not a set price, but a price *from* - which means there are going to be options that affect the price. The presence of that word means they *probably* aren't breaking any rules, but IMO it's a bit naughty of them not to put something next to the lines that may affect the price to indicate that fact.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

I was thinking Accountants Club for the pricing I mentioned from a couple of years ago, as opposed to just the client sage pricing. Ive had a dig around their website and cannot see any prices advertised (surprise, surprise, not!). I might ring them up in the week to see as this was the one I was moaning about being ONLY on a subscription basis and Ive heard they have done a turnaround. Although I do understand the price banding still apply, so VT Trans + (and Accounts for those who need it) still beat it hands down.

Shaun - straight jacket cancelled.

Vince - defibrillation machine on hand for the next Sage shocker.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Unfortunately I'm afraid to say that it's more expensive that you think John. If you go down that page a way it states number of companies and if you enter unlimited for a single user its £270 pcm (£3240 p.a. (£3744 with phone support)) VAT inclusive.

Those figures are more in line with the historic cost of Sage.

Joanne, fear not, cancel the doctors, my grip reality has been restored with the realisation that the Sage client tax remains in place.... VT it is for me then

Right I see, very naughty layout that, as Vince says, but to be honest I should have spotted it, sorry. (I've highlighted my original comment). It's only worth considering (assuming you insist on using sage) then with a 5 company licence in my opinion, but with a near 50% hike if you want phone support.

Vince, yes I can see it plain as day now, I don't normally miss something like that, stupid thing is that sage would probably make more money if they had a more sensible pricing model.

VinceH · Expert

"stupid thing is that sage would probably make more money if they had a more sensible pricing model."

Quite so. I don't see any real justification for charging on a 'per company' basis at all - especially for the desktop versions, where the software and data is residing on the users' computer.

The multi-company facility itself could justify a small extra charge, because that would unlock the ability to set up additional companies, choose between them at start up, and switch between them mid-session. Beyond the code to do that, though - which merely sets up the necessary pointers to the data for the different companies - I can't see that the software does anything special or magic to justify a per-company charge. It's a ludicrous pricing model.

Especially if they can't [be arsed to?] fix simple bugs...

The bug I'm thinking of is present in my version (2013) and was there several versions earlier than that - it may have been present in versions prior to the one I first noticed it in, but it came to my attention when a client switched to email for invoices and statements. (Prior to that, I was doing so for my own accounts, but mine was the first company in the multi-company set up, so the problem didn't affect me.)

And while I say 'bug' it's actually an oversight, and a bloody stupid one at that, which I lay firmly at Sage's door.

For each company, in the defaults, you can set an email address. So the first company might be 'accounts@companyA.com', the second might be 'accounts@company2.net', the third might be 'accounts@companygamma.org', and so on.

If you set up reports/layouts for emailing, you can pick up that address by way of a variable - company.email (IIRC) - so in your email config for the report, if that variable is used for the sender, the email will come 'From' the appropriate email address... usually. For example, you might have email addresses set up for customers, in order to send invoices, statements, etc.

Sticking with the statement example, if you want to send a statement to a customer, but you haven't added the email address to their record - or if you want to send to a different address (so you have a statement layout that doesn't pick up their address) - the stupid software ignores the address you have set up as company.email, and instead uses the address set up as company.email for the first company.

i.e. manually send a statement from the third company, instead of coming 'From' accounts@companygamma.org, it'll come 'From' accounts@companyA.com. When it hit me, therefore, I was sending customer statements from one of my clients - but instead of coming from *their* accounts email address, they were coming from *my* accounts email address.

(And to make matters worse, some of their customers and started contacting me at my own accounts address when they wanted statements or had queries regarding their account with my client - understandable, really, in the first instance, but it did get annoying if I explained the problem to them and asked that they used (and told them) the correct address, and they persisted. In one case, they continued sending to my address, CCing it to the correct address!)

I reported the issue to Sage as soon as I first encountered it, a good few years before I stopped upgrading - and it wasn't fixed in all that time: A monumentally STUPID mistake, which should have been trivially easy to fix. Given their excessive per-company tax, not fixing something as simple as that is unforgivable.

(And because I have no plans to upgrade, I will never know if it's been fixed since.)