Making Tax Digital - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Making Tax Digital

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

There is a pile of stuff on HMRC about this

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
There is a pile of stuff on HMRC about this

Anything of value? There's so much we don't know yet, but I do know that within VT software there will be a link to HMRC to send the quarterly update to HMRC. In fact I think it's already there on the latest update, just doesn't do anything yet, so I will just continue as I am now, whilst obviously getting the information quicker from my clients, which should be fun! Even subbies will have to do quarterly updates, although I do have a plan for that

I think we'll know a lot more come July, but it is a bit scarey that with just over a year to go, we still don't have a scooby exactly what's going to happen.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Nah! I got bored of reading the almost daily updates that hit my inbox. Im not doing ANYTHING at the mo - dont see the point in running around trying to second guess what the hell is going on and wasting good fee income earning time to do so. Besides you know what clients are like with a dealine they all know about and what its required ie Jan 31st - you try to tell them from 6 April and ask them for 'stuff' and they ignore it for 9 months.

Build in a note to self John to uplift your fees if they dont provide it by x date!

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
Build in a note to self John to uplift your fees if they dont provide it by x date!

I will Joanne, thanks.

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Hi

This where I keep getting stuck, glad I am not the only one. I read the notices from HMRC, but not sure how it will work in practice and if the software will automatically feed through or will we have to be completing manual returns. I currently us VT+ Transactions for the books and Tax filer for the tax returns, John where in VT is the link to HMRC? Is that in VT trans+ or accounts?

Thanks Lyndsey

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Top bar mid way on +

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
Top bar mid way on +

You must have the latest version, it's not on mine

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Ahh its not on mine either. I bought it outright a few years ago, I don't pay the annual fee, but it does say it is updating it automatically, I have version 2015 which looks like what is online . So not sure whether it will come shortly.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Ah, I have the accounts production package on it so it keeps it all square and nicely up to date. In fact the blitherin thing stopped me production only recently to do an update - godo time to make a brew!

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Out of interest Lyndsey, how do you get the data from VT+ to taxfiler? I use the second trial balance option on VT+ and paste it into the trial balance on Taxfiler. It's not as straightforward as I would like and was wondering if there's a better way, although I am very seriously considering using VT accounts again and just using taxfiler to submit to HMRC.

oooh Joanne, does your version auto update? that must be great.

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Leger wrote:
Out of interest Lyndsey, how do you get the data from VT+ to taxfiler? I use the second trial balance option on VT+ and paste it into the trial balance on Taxfiler. It's not as straightforward as I would like and was wondering if there's a better way, although I am very seriously considering using VT accounts again and just using taxfiler to submit to HMRC.

Sorry I completely missed that question, yes I do use VT to Taxfiler. I use the "sent to tax package" option under the Tax Data, so long as all the accounts are linked to the correct HMRC tax fields it "should" (I use that loosely) go in ok. I did have one that was a bit funny and I had to play, but I didn't have a problem with the lot I did at beginning of this year.

Jay · Senior Member

Screen shot of VT with MTD

Hope this assists

BW

Jay

Peasie · Expert

Lyndsey wrote:
Ahh its not on mine either. I bought it outright a few years ago, I don't pay the annual fee, but it does say it is updating it automatically, I have version 2015 which looks like what is online . So not sure whether it will come shortly.

Looks like you'll need to pay subscription fee.

BazzaS · Member

Having had a read through HMRC site and also various websites I am still confused about exactly how data will be transferred/transmitted to HMRC for MTD purposes. Is it a requirement to have an automatic interface ? Or will we be able to upload on command? Or type the relevant numbers into some HMRC page ? I've seen nothing that clarifies the actual process. Can anyone advise please.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Barry

As far as I'm aware you will need to click a button on the software to transmit to HMRC. They have built a new API, and all data has to go through the API on a quarterly basis.

Not sure whether the SAR can still be sent using the HMRC gateway though, but I suspect not.

I think we'll know some more when the Chancellor does his budget next week, but it's very scary that we are 13 months away and still nobody has a scooby how its going to work.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Peasie wrote:
Lyndsey wrote:
Ahh its not on mine either. I bought it outright a few years ago, I don't pay the annual fee, but it does say it is updating it automatically, I have version 2015 which looks like what is online . So not sure whether it will come shortly.
Looks like you'll need to pay subscription fee.

I think that's fair enough. Having the MTD button is a major plus for those who will be doing the bookkeeping for the client, and I have no objection to paying an annual fee.

Lyndsey · Senior Member

Yes pretty scary that they expect it to go live in about a year, the software providers will have a nightmare trying to get it set up/ in working order in that time.

I would have thought Tax Filer would do something, but I can see no mention on their site. If this does go forward, it would make their software redundant surely.

I have just been reading the article on xero web page (www.xero.com/uk/accountant-bookkeeper-guides/cloud-accounting/making-tax-digital/), it mentions that bank feeds will automatically feed into your making tax digital account, even if the income/expense are not declared? How will this work? Its the first I read about that.

Jay · Senior Member

I would not be over concerned at present as the final details are not know, although we just have a reasonable idea of what it may be.

HMRC will provide detailed information and webinars etc once the final details are formalised.

I look at it "similar" to clients being VAT Registered with quarterly accounts and then the final accounts for tax purposes.

I also expect every software provider to update the software in plenty of time.

BW

Jay

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Lyndsey wrote:
Yes pretty scary that they expect it to go live in about a year, the software providers will have a nightmare trying to get it set up/ in working order in that time.

I would have thought Tax Filer would do something, but I can see no mention on their site. If this does go forward, it would make their software redundant surely.

I have just been reading the article on xero web page (www.xero.com/uk/accountant-bookkeeper-guides/cloud-accounting/making-tax-digital/), it mentions that bank feeds will automatically feed into your making tax digital account, even if the income/expense are not declared? How will this work? Its the first I read about that.

Taxfiler is not bookkeeping software, it's for submitting accounts once completed, although I would imagine they will have something ready for MTD to submit the SAR (assuming you have to submit that way). In reality they don't really need to have that ready until April 2019.

I envisage completing the quarterly bookkeeping on VT+, and submitting the annual SAR on taxfiler (or comparable software)

That article on Xerox is wrong on at least 3 points. Bank transactions won't automatically feed into your tax account. The banks will notify HMRC of interest earned and that will be autofed into your Digital Tax Account, as will pensions and benefits and paye.

All submissions wont need to be filed by April 2018, taxpayers with declarable income (excluding PAYE) starts April 2018, excluding VAT registered businesses which starts April 2019 and Ltd Co's, which starts April 2020.

Tax won't be calculated quarterly, the calculation of tax will be on the final SAR which is still submitted up to 10 months after the tax year, and quite correctly, after accuals capital allowances etc are taken into account.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Of course zero or xero or whatever the hell they are called are going to put some comment out - they are seeking worl domination and want people to think that they have it all sorted. Meanwhile those that are in the know (accountants and bookkeepers, rather than general public) actually arent as green as they are cabbage looking and know they cannot have it all sorted given HMRC & Co havent got it all planned out yet.

Im with Jay - why waste time and effort worrying about something at this stage. Chillax peeps!

Amanda · Expert

Hi everyone,

So what will happen with the clients of mine that I do on QB's desktop, and also I have 2 on Sage line 50, (their copies not mine), how will that work?

I don't do accounts, just bookkeeping up to TB.

Thanks,

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Amanda

Switch to VT+ biggrin

On a serious note, I can't see Quickbooks desktop including an MTD button, and I think this will be the death of that particular software, although I hope They have Quickbooks online which is already being heavily pushed.

Not sure on sage, possibly the replacement for sage instant, although they also have sage one online so I can see that getting promoted instead.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
Im with Jay - why waste time and effort worrying about something at this stage. Chillax peeps!

Hi Joanne

Its just over a year away so there's nothing wrong in discussing it surely? Its going to have a major impact on our industry so its better to be alert to whats happening rather than simply ignoring it then panicking because you weren't ready.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Leger wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Im with Jay - why waste time and effort worrying about something at this stage. Chillax peeps!
Hi Joanne
Its just over a year away so there's nothing wrong in discussing it surely? Its going to have a major impact on our industry so its better to be alert to whats happening rather than simply ignoring it then panicking because you weren't ready.

Hi John

No nothing wrong with discussing it, but personally just think there are too many unknowns and variables to have a really meaningful discussion which will result in an action/to do list at this stage. Whilst I work better under pressure and deadlines I wont spend any time panicking about it and will just wade in to the fray nearer the time when things are more scoped out. I will refrain from posting any more at this stage.

abacus12345 · Guru

What's MTD......

Just a new fangled way to report. May make some extra in fees, may lose some.

Can't see the actual game changing too much, I wouldn't worry - maybe it will be beneficial.

I'd be more concerned about having any contractors the rate HMRC are going at it.

VinceH · Expert

"No nothing wrong with discussing it, but personally just think there are too many
unknowns and variables to have a really meaningful discussion which will result in
an action/to do list at this stage. "

^ This.

If you come across meaningful news/information on the subject which can actually
forward a discussion beyond what is otherwise just speculation, fine - anything
else, though, IS just speculation.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
Hi John
No nothing wrong with discussing it, but personally just think there are too many unknowns and variables to have a really meaningful discussion which will result in an action/to do list at this stage. Whilst I work better under pressure and deadlines I wont spend any time panicking about it and will just wade in to the fray nearer the time when things are more scoped out. I will refrain from posting any more at this stage.

That's a fair point, but please don't refrain from posting about it if you want to. We're all different and I've had a keen eye on it ever since it was announced, although the not knowing much is frustrating the hell out of me! I'm maybe too early but I'm gearing up now for it. Business re-launches on 1st April with a new name and website and I will be offering cloud as a service, but it won't be rammed down clients throats. The way I operate at the moment will stay, with adaptations made for quarterly reporting for my annual clients when the need arises.

Rachel767 · Veteran Member

On a course I was on at the weekend, we were told that the first quarter for MTD will be the first day of the first year beginning after 5/4/18, so if a self employed business has a year end of 31st March, their first MTD quarter will begin on 1/4/19.

We were also told that anyone over £10k turnover but under the VAT threshold will only have to submit 3 line accounts (income-expenditure=profit), but anyone over the threshold will have to submit a full income and expenditure every quarter.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

I could never understand why there is a 5th April tax year end. Surely it wouldn't take much to change it to a month end for everyone, ideally 31st December in my opinion. Have a budget in September so all changes can be implemented in the next tax year.

The 3 line accounts are in line with how the SAR works now, although on taxfiler you don't get that option as far as I can see, so I do full expenditure anyway.

VinceH · Expert

"I could never understand why there is a 5th April tax year end."

History and changes in the calendar used.

Way back however many hundreds of years ago (presumably dating back to when the Romans were here) we were using the Julian calendar (proposed by, and named after Julius Caesar)

As time progressed, the calendar (which was inaccurate) became more and more incorrect.

Somewhere down the line (I want to say 16th century, but I'm not sure) a new, more accurate calendar was devised - the Gregorian calendar. (By a pope. Called Gregory.) This was introduced in some countries, but not here.

At this point, the Julian calendar was out by something like 10 days.

It was finally adopted in this country in the 18th Century (that one I do know - 1752), by which time we were out by 11 days.

The tax year used to begin on 25th March - another odd date, but see below. When we shifted from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian one, that particular tax year would only have been 354 days, so the date was pushed forward to 5th April to add 11 days, and ensure the year's tax income was for a full year.

Ahahaha, I can imagine hearing you ask, but that means the tax year should *start* rather than end on 5th April.

There was a later change due to a leap year (1800 I think) - another day was added, and the tax year now ends of 5th April, and begins on 6th.

Why 25th March?

That used to be New Year's Day here. Perfectly logical! :)

(I think the original reason for that is a fixed date was picked that would fall a few days after the March equinox.)

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Thanks Vince

They say you learn new stuff every day biggrin

Although I was aware of the Julian and Gregorian calendars, I had no idea that the Gregorian calendar wasn't adopted here until 1752, or that 25th March was originally new years day. You would have thought that when they changed new years day to Jan 1st they would have reset the tax year to the same date.

VinceH · Expert

The problem with making the tax year begin on 1st January is the same as the reason it went from 25th March to 5th (then 6th) April - it would have meant a tax year that wasn't a full 365 (or 366) days, and wouldn't have received a full year's revenue.

If they didn't like the idea of it being 11 days short (hence the move from 25th March to 5th April), making it over 80 days shorter to move it to 1st January was definitely not going to be an option.

Peasie · Expert

While on the subject of Making Tax Digital - we are expected to make a Full Payment Submission on or before the date employees are paid, but HMRC don't have to show it on their website until the 12th of the following tax month. So if you make a payment on the 6th of the month it won't show up for another 6 weeks. Not very easy when HMRC makes allocations left, right and centre. Should they not be concentrating that first before making a mess of something else?

EDIT : The reason I mention this is I have had employers make their payment by the 14th of say month 10. The payment gets allocated to month 11 as an over payment and eventually month 10 shows an amount as still owing.

-- Edited by Peasie on Saturday 4th of March 2017 03:21:53 AM

Jay · Senior Member

HMRC are holding Webinars on 28th March re MTD.

If you intend to ask questions it is better to email them asap as I expect there will not be time to answer them all.

BW

Jay

Jay · Senior Member

I'm hoping this will create a link in case anyone is not subscribed.

Making Tax Digital (MTD) - For agents who are helping their clients prepare for Making Tax Digital. This meeting will give an overview of recent MTD announcements.

Tuesday 28 March 11am to midday Register now for this meeting

Tuesday 28 March 3pm to 4pm Register now for this meeting

BW

Jay

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Got my email yesterday morning and signed up. Hopefully by then we'll know more of the detail.

Jay · Senior Member

Worth looking at Taxcalc's website regarding Software for MTD.

https://www.taxcalc.com/mtd/practice

BW

Jay

Leger · Master Book-keeper

So MTD is to be delayed a year to 2019, I assume that means both non VAT and VAT businesses will start at the same time. It's not a move that's surprised me, and it's the least the Gov could have done, as starting in 2018 would have been a complete disaster.

Jay · Senior Member

Many thanks for that update.

Not a great deal more is detailed on the HMRC site , as follows :

18. Small Businesses and landlords under the VAT threshold will have an extra year to prepare for Making Tax Digital (MTD)

Unincorporated businesses (businesses owned privately by one or more people) that have an annual turnover below the VAT registration threshold will have until April 2019 to prepare before MTD becomes mandatory.

Under MTD, businesses will use digital software to keep tax records and update HMRC quarterly.

BW

Jay

pictures · Senior Member

My manager is a bit clueless about this. She's also fairly internet phobic! I've been trying to read some stuff from HMRC but its all very confusing.

Currently all of our accounts except payroll is manual (paper based with the odd excel spreadsheet). The accountant comes in twice a year and prepares the return (my manager instigated the twice a year so she could see how things were doing half way through the year. I go online every month and submit CIS figures and pay the PAYE.

I can't work out if Making Tax Digital will mean we have to buy accounting software or whether it means we will have to get the accountant to come in and prepare the return 4 times a year. She will be horrifies at the bank feeds thing as she still has paper statements and pays all suppliers by cheque! Our current system is as foolproof as it can be. Any queries are resolved quickly becasue paper records make mistakes easy to find. Our accountant brings his trainees to our offices to train because our records are in such good order.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Julie

Can she produce a profit and loss sheet from the records maintained at the moment?

All that needs to happen (1) is for those figures to be entered into MTD ready software and hit the submission figure once a quarter and let the accountant do his usual magic at the end of the year. The only change being that the quarters figures need to be ready by the end of the following month. I wouldn't worry too much about bank feeds.

Presumably you already do VAT returns and this is really an extension of that, with a breakdown of all purchases, rather than a single total. (2) In fact the VAT return will be done away with and replaced with MTD.

(1) On the priviso that we don't need to attach digital records, there were mootings of this but I think it got kicked into the long grass.

(2) 3 line accounts are available for sole traders up to the VAT limit, but I'm assuming this is a Ltd Company or over the VAT threshold.

Oops meant to add. Of course this would be a prime opportunity for her to enter the 21st Century biggrin I can't see why using software would make her records any less meticulous, it is only an aid to the meticulous records she already keeps.

-- Edited by Leger on Friday 10th of March 2017 04:58:05 PM

pictures · Senior Member

Yes and yes, Ltd company well over the VAT threshold.

The accountant prepares the profit and loss sheet at the moment, twice a year but she reckons it wouldn't be that difficult to do so, its not so much different than preparing the VAT return. What would be more difficult and very time consuming would be the Work in Progress Figure.

She doesn't like software because she can't see and analyse figures. She likes paper she can write on. Prior to RTI she did Payroll, all I did at that point really was type invoices and enter them into the ledger. Since RTI I have completely taken over Payroll along with CIS returns. This could be good for my development as the more computerised we go, the more I get to do/learn.

About 10 years ago we did purchase a Sage Accounts package at great cost. I was sent on a course. We began to use it but she insisted on keeping all the manual records alongside the software so she could open a ringbinder for example and see at a glance who owed money and who had paid what when. It was so time consuming as we were doing the same job twice. Also back then the Sage software didn't like CIS deductions very much!

VinceH · Expert

Get the company to send her back to the 1970s where she belongs, and replace her with someone who lives in this century.

pictures · Senior Member

She's a director and the MD's wife!

Leger · Master Book-keeper

pictures wrote:
What would be more difficult and very time consuming would be the Work in Progress Figure.

As far as I know, all that's required is the Income and breakdown of expenditure figures, any accounting adjustments will be for year end. As such MTD is a completely fruitless exercise and will serve no purpose whatsoever, apart from eventually leading to more regular tax collection, which many suspect is the real reason for MTD. (And of course the opportunity for more penalties)

Leger · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:
Get the company to send her back to the 1970s where she belongs, and replace her with someone who lives in this century.

I'm actually quite impressed with her tbh, how many nowadays could keep a meticulous copy of manual accounts and know to the penny where they were.

VinceH · Expert

"MTD is a completely fruitless exercise and will serve no purpose whatsoever,
apart from eventually leading to more regular tax collection"

^ This. And a tax income bubble at the start - the period in which payments *start* to happen sooner.

Consider the problem with changing the calendar, and why the tax year is now as it as (discussed above): Changing the tax year in line with the calendar would have meant the actual year in which the change happened would have been shorter, so it would have looked like a tax income shortfall - even though the amount of tax being received overall would have remained the same.

If MTD results in tax being collected sooner, then the reverse is going to happen: again, the overall amount is going to remain the same (ignoring the hyperbole about it helping to mitigate the problem of tax being underpaid due to 'errors'), then in that initial period it's going to look as though more is received.

The government will undoubtedly point at that apparent extra tax and claim that proves it was a success, and that it's solved problems like underpaid tax, when in fact it's not really extra tax, but tax paid that much sooner than before.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

VinceH wrote:
The government will undoubtedly point at that apparent extra tax and claim that proves it was a success, and that it's solved problems like underpaid tax, when in fact it's not really extra tax, but tax paid that much sooner than before.

A very good point.

BruceDenney · Senior Member

There are a number of 3rd parties that are coming up with solutions.

forum.makingithappen.co.uk/viewtopic.php