Hi my name is Rebekah. Ive just started my bookkeeping journey and enjoying it very much. I am currently studying AAT level 2 bookkeeping, wanting to do level 3 with the end game of going self employed straight away, however I spoke to someone and did a little research and ICB might be a better path for me to take.
So my question is people who are self employed , which route is best AAT or ICB
This is a question thats been done quite a lot on the site but as always organisations grow and evolve so answers given on here five years ago (by me amongst others) may be less cut and dried today.
The ICB has been doing quite a lot to try and get themselves noticed by an industry that has traditionally ignored their existance. Very much filing them (and IAB) in the drawer with Pitman and City&Guilds. Where AAT has more industry respect being a child created by the big boys ICAEW, CIMA, ICAS and CIPFA... ACCA were initially involved but then went their own way with the CAT qualification. None of those organisations are involved anymore but just stand back as proud parents whilst the AAT grows into a respected institution in it's own right.
Because of its heritage many accountants started out doing AAT before moving on to higher qualifications. That may not seem a huge plus point but remember that those accountants who may now be sub contracting work know the quality of AAT where they may not be so clear on the quality of people of other organisations.
A sales point of the ICB and AAT has been in attempting to attract qualified accountants who find it too difficult to meet the criteria of being awarded a practicing certificate from their own bodies so look for a flag of convenience. In the case of the AAT an MAAT MIP is generally quite well regarded. In the case of the ICB there is something of an historic stigma attached but thats only amongst accountants, not the general public who in general could not tell the difference between a certified bookkeeper and a chartered accountant when they are looking for representation and instead look at price which of course an ICB members overheads are a lot lower than a member of one of the larger bodies.
I think that the historic issues with the ICB where it was regarded initially as the quick and easy option have now largely been put to bed. When it was started by a manager formely of the IAB it needed to get it's membership numbers up in a crowded market place dominated by the AAT... You dont get to build numbers by making a qualification difficult to attain. It initially appealed to the newly redundant and stay at home mums who needed to get some income quickly, but those days I feel are now long since behind it as it seeks to make itself a qualification thats an AAT alternative and people today who want to gain their letters are put through gruelling tests to rival AAT.
It should be noted that to offer a full service to micro entities which is the way the profession has gone means that non of the organisations can actually be considered bookkeeping but are instead entry level accountancy qualifications. (Bookkeeping stops at trial balance, everything after that is accountancy). And there ICB falls down in that whilst I do not see any serious differentiation up to trial balance when it comes to accountancy then bodies need to be teaching professional ethics and placing more emphasis on the idiosyncracies of taxation.
So, just to emphasise, I'm not saying that the ICB is a bad qualification. What I am saying is that it is not as well recognised by accountants as it, and certainly many of the people who hold it, deserve. It's not (to my mind) as well rounded as the AAT qualification and lacks emphasis on ethics which is a core part of all of the accountancy qualifications. No doubt in the future they will develop those weaker areas of their syllabus around tax and ethics but it takes a lot longer for mindsets to change than professional body sylabuses.
Overall, if I were you... which I'm not and the choice is very much your own... I would stick with the AAT which is well rounded, well respected and keeps the door open for permanent employment if ever you decided to go down that path in the future (although I know thats not on the horizon at the moment).
Not really answered your question but hopefully widened your thought processes.
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Thank you Shaun for your very in-depth reply, yes your right unfortunately that doesn't answer my question lol. I literally just want to be able to do my partners books and small businesses with absolutely no intention of ever working for big companies or permeant employment, nor going into accounting.
Someone said to me today that you cant actually go self employed with AAT at level 3 but you can with ICB its just all very confusing and IBC have packages directly aimed at people who want to go self employed.
I just would like to hear peoples experiences with these and being self employed please
Hi my name is Rebekah. Ive just started my bookkeeping journey and enjoying it very much. I am currently studying AAT level 2 bookkeeping, wanting to do level 3 with the end game of going self employed straight away, however I spoke to someone and did a little research and ICB might be a better path for me to take.
So my question is people who are self employed , which route is best AAT or ICB
Thank you Shaun for your very in-depth reply, yes your right unfortunately that doesn't answer my question lol. I literally just want to be able to do my partners books and small businesses with absolutely no intention of ever working for big companies or permeant employment, nor going into accounting. Someone said to me today that you cant actually go self employed with AAT at level 3 but you can with ICB its just all very confusing and IBC have packages directly aimed at people who want to go self employed.
I just would like to hear peoples experiences with these and being self employed please
Rebekah
This question has been done to death in recent times. I personally think Shaun has answered your question very well by covering several bases and I would say have another read of and consider what he is saying between as well as within those lines.
You say you would like to hear peoples experience etc but it reads as if you are just dismissing completely what one such person has said.
Just to re-iterate, he is someone who has such experience and is currently and has been self employed for a long time and is frankly giving his view as such, but it just so happens that he is also the forum moderator so you are getting two bites of the cherry and getting his veiw formed by having seen the standard of questions that come from newly qualified people of both bodies, on this forum over a period of c7 years.
It might be worth telling us the credentials of the 'someone' who you are talking to because frankly the fact that you are being told that you cannot go self employed at level three is a pile of cr*p. Plus the AAT, despite what some people will try to make you believe, is not all about working for big companies or being employed. If you havent already, then have a read of the most recent answers to this exact same question.
__________________
Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
I literally just want to be able to do my partners books and small businesses with absolutely no intention of ever going into accounting.[excert]
If you are working with the smallest businesses then they look for a one stop shop which is why most (not all) bookkeepers now go beyond trial balance. i.e. an IT consultant isnt going to go to one person for their bookkeeping and another to file their accountand self assessment so to my mind bookkeepers need to be moving to understanding how to fully handle the smallest businesses (which is the way that ICB are going and AAT are already there).
Someone said to me today that you cant actually go self employed with AAT at level 3
They Lied. You cannot make any mention of any affiliation with the AAT. Take a look around the site as there are posts that include the full set of rules.
but you can with ICB
Because you can does not mean that you should. Too many people go self employed too soon and end up in complete messes. With the ICB unless you have a secure position working only to trial balance then wait until you have passed the higher level exams. The more thant you learn the more that you realise that there is far more to this than you could ever imagine... Once you have peaked behind the curtain you'll move away from the idea of going to market as fast as possible to the permanent state of mind that you really don't know enough yet... I've been doing this a long time and at times it still feels as though I know nothing.... That said, at least I now know where to look when I dont know the answer to anything and that in itself takes a long time to learn.
its just all very confusing and ICB have packages directly aimed at people who want to go self employed.
Ask yourself how many people do AAT and then go self employed? What package do ICB offer that AAT do not?
Ah, you say the nicest things... Here, have another get out of jail free card... Can't imaging that you'll ever need to use one but you must have enough to paper your living room with by now.
I concur, I suspect that the someone involved may have ulterior motives such as a training provider who wants students to go with the option thats faster for them to teach.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Not 100% sure why I'm being spoken to like that, as I just asked a very simple question, I will be doing 1-2 small businesses books that's it and I just wanted to know which way was better to do it not start an argument.
No I wasn't dismissing anything he said at all.
This question might of been done to death but people want a different end goal and as I literally will be doing only a few books I just wondered which was better.
No this person wasn't a training provider it was someone who I know who does books who is with the AAT and warned me off it but I didn't want to talk one persons word so that's why I posted on here but seems I made a mistake
Thanks
Sometimes when we read the written words we gain an impression that is contrary to how it was intended*. Joanne thought you were dismissing Shaun's comments out of hand, which obviously wasn't your intention. I didn't see Joanne's comments as "getting at you".
*Made that mistake twice on here. One person I thought I had pee'd off cos they seemed to be having mild digs at me, and responding to other posters, and ignoring me. I sent them an email and it turned out I had got the wrong end of the stick and they still loved me, so it ended well
The other was a poster who I thought had took a major dig at me in reply to a post that had sung my praises but disparaged two other regulars. I hadn't warranted being praised nor expected the "dig" and fired off an angry email to the poster. Turned out it was entirely said in jest and wasn't a dig at all, but it had gone whooshing over my head. Talk about embarrassed!! I was forgiven, fortunately.
__________________
John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Thats a different question in a way. Not why go with the ICB but more a why not go with the AAT.
In amongst the advice from your friend was an incorrect statement that you cannot act in a self employed capacity at an early stage with the AAT. That peice of advice alone seems to have had a fundamental affect upon your decision making and it brings into question the quality or motive of the advice that you are getting.
Even if that person is now ICB and may be seeking to validate their own decisions, that they trained with the AAT invalidates any claim that they can make about ICB training as they gained their skills under the AAT. I did mention in my first post that there are people who use the ICB (and AAT) as a flag of convenience because they have difficulty gaining practicing certificates from their own professional bodies. That does not mean that their knowledge base should be judged on the body that they are a memeber of but rather than one that they trained with.
Can you expand upon the advice that you were given, specifically in relation to more info about what they feel is wrong with the AAT. They do seem a little jaundiced towards what is considered one of the best professional bodies in the market place making me wonder what they have found so bad about the qualification.
Its worth noting that once you have qualified with one body, dependant upon how that body is regarded you can transfer practicing to other bodies. For example, with an MAAT MIP then the IAB or IFA (and one or two others) would welcome you with open arms as they appreciate the quality of training that you have gone through to attain membership.
It does sound a little as though you have sold yourself on the ICB option and are looking for comments to corroborate your decision. I think that we all do that at times but that you are asking, does that not mean that somewhere deep inside there's a little voice questioning the wisdom of this move? I think that you already know which the better qualification is but your friends words have wormed their way in to cast doubts over the path already chosen. Don't let them sway you. Finish your AAT then decide which camp to put your flag in as with an AAT qualification all of them will be open to you.
Just one thing to ponder before I go... You are looking at a different route but imagine yourself called into an HMRC inspection of a client (or even your own business)... Which knowledge base do you think that you would prefer to have!
Good luck with whichever route you choose to take.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Ahh, John. You should know by now that your always loved on here.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Sorry Shaun but you've completely gone off track and gone into that I'm not even sure why. The person who said this has zero to do with my decision, I also said what they had said confused me, ive since spoken to people from the AAT and ICB websites and found out what he meant.
I simply wanted advice from people who have had the same dilemma as me and how they found it.
Not sure why its turned into this but ill leave it there I think
Thank you for you information all the same though, you have helped my decision
I literally just came on here for a bit of advice from some people who have been in my position in the last few months.
Sounded rude to me. Now seems you are dismissing it again.Response above seems like you dont want advice from someone who has done the job for a long time and probably knows. Your first post was a generic question asked by lots of people answered many times that i have seen. Since then the 'story' has changed with extra now 'doing 1-2 small businesses books'. Perhaps in your head you thought you had said that. Or are you looking for someone to answer just AAT or ICB. How about IAB. Reality check time not sure you can have a business with 1-2 clients. You will make no money. Simple question but not a simple answer as this market is complex with lots of accountancy rules but worse the tax rules. Shaun has gone ''off track'' that is so funny.
I'm not doing it for money I don't need to work I want to do it because I have an interest. Yes I only want to do 1-2 peoples books that's it.
Not being dismissive I just need people in my current situation. Its not being rude just want peoples opinions who are in the same position as me .
Sorry Shaun but you've completely gone off trackand gone into that I'm not even sure why.
I don't think I have. I'm trying to get you to think about this logically rather than be led off the path that you have already chosen and stated that you are enjoying.
The person who said this has zero to do with my decision,
Don't understand that line. You have not spoken about that bit before and is part of what we're looking for you to expand upon so that we are able to tell you where they are wrong, or right as the case may be.
I also said what they had said confused me, ive since spoken to people from the AAT and ICB websites and found out what he meant.
But not on their open forums. For one, ask something on the ICB's forum and in general your answer if you ever get one takes a long time in coming. If you have spoken to the profesional bodies themselves (or tied training companies) then they have a vested interest in the answers that they give.
I simply wanted advice from people who have had the same dilemma as me and how they found it.
And you got it. I've been a practicing member of three different professional bodies en route to where I am now. ICB was one of them and I also took their exams (it was a time when I was worrying that because I was at an advanced level of study my grip on the basics of double entry might be slipping so wanted a bit of verification (it verified at least that it wasnt slipping, I just worried that it was)) so am able to compare and contrast against other professional bodies.
Not sure why its turned into this
It was your seeming lack of understanding as to what was being said in my first post which will have worried people about what you are not seeing. Trust me, the responses here are only intended for your good.
Casu hits on a very apt point later in her response in that your belief that a business can be created from one or two small clients is somewhat ill conceived. There must be profit motive for something to be referred to as a business. Small clients want a one stop shop, not a seperate bookkeeper and accountant, so you would need to go past trial balance. Two small clients is also really more of a hobby than a business. Before spending too much on training with the expectation of income do your business plan to calculate whether you are ever likely to return a profit (two years of losses followed by profit as your client base grows is the general expectation). Factor in your costs which will include professional memberships, CPD, annual practice certificates, PII, PLI, annual software licenses, MLR, marketing, travel, use of home as office, etc.
Consider that the minimum level that you need to be aiming at should be eight clients with no one client accounting for more than 15% of income. That may take a bit of time to achieve as it's a very competitive market. Size / turnover of client may adjust those figures but thats not a bad ballpark figure to start with.
Even calling yourself a bookkeeper you need to be in a position to argue cases with HMRC and thats the direction that we've been attempting to guide you. It's not enough that you know how to do something, you need to know why you are doing it. i.e. the regulation that sits behind your work.
As I say, once qualified by all means practice under whichever body you choose but in getting to qualified ensure that you take the route which will teach you the most for the path that you have chosen. To quote the wise words of Casu "this market is complex with lots of accountancy rules but worse the tax rules".
And your clients WILL expect you to understand the complexities and pit traps of Tax / VAT regardless as to whether you call yourself a bookkeeper or an accountant.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I'm not doing it for money I don't need to work I want to do it because I have an interest. Yes I only want to do 1-2 peoples books that's it. Not being dismissive I just need people in my current situation. Its not being rude just want peoples opinions who are in the same position as me .
