VT+ and MTD - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Artois · Guru

VT+ and MTD

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Doug
Can you add a link please? Ive not gone digging but only one Ive seen was mid September I think when it was said they were covering it off.

Artois · Guru

Hi Joanne

This is the link on Aweb

http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/hottopics.htm

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Nooooooo.

Not read the Aweb thread yet but here it is

www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/vtt-abandoning-the-struggle-0

Wonder if a petition will work - dont want to be stuck with the zero type sh*te.

Thanks for the VT link Doug

-- Edited by Cheshire on Monday 2nd of October 2017 05:03:12 PM

Leger · Master Book-keeper

I'm gutted to say the least, especially as they had at first said that VT+ would be compatible when MTD was implemented

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/vtt-abandoning-the-struggle-0#comment-618232

What are the alternatives? Sage is way too expensive and QB have more or less confined the desktop version to the scrapheap.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Early retirement to go and sit on a beach

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
Wonder if a petition will work - dont want to be stuck with the zero type sh*te.

Either the cost of development is too much, or they are in trouble financially. Can't help thinking the latter because this surely will be the death knell for the Company. VT+ is a standalone product fair enough and their mainstay is VT accounts, but I for one would have been happy to pay an additional subscription for the bookkeeping product.

VinceH · Expert

Wait, what?

Have I missed something? Has something about MTD changed?

AFAICR there is (or was!) nothing about MTD that should prevent you using existing software. In fact, I distinctly recall seeing clarification at one point from El Gov that (to my reading) confirmed this¹ - IIRC, the only thing you'd need to do is get the figures from your existing package into the system.

If VT isn't going to cut the mustard - and VT saying they won't be updating it "because MTD" implies it won't - that means other existing software may not be, either. Am I going to have to update my copy of Sage, for example? Feck. Feck. Feck. Feck. :(

1 There was a lot of hyperbole from crappy cloudy companies (and cloudy fanbois) at one point spreading FUD and trying to make people think that MTD meant a requirement for cloud, which wasn't true² - and that clarification from El Gov seemed to confirm what I'd been saying all along. ISTR them there would be (third party?) software specifically for making submissions.

2 There's a small part of me thinking that VT themselves have misunderstood and have fallen for the same hyperbole/FUD.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Holy s**t...

Don't think that the issue is financial John. The Government are renowned for not passing sufficient or correct information on to software houses attempting to develop their software to fit in with Government requirements so my assumption is that it's the Government has not given out a proper data transfer catalogue in good time for companies such as VT to develop and properly test their software.

The accounts software is sound and I know quite a few accountants that use that but use Sage for the bookkeeping so I really can't see VT going belly up for this as what they are talking about abandoning isn't really making them money anyway (compared to the accounts software).

Reading the latest HMRC gumf on MTD it seems that they assume that all business users will input everything using their phones... What friggin planet are they living on! The consultancies that think up this crap for the Government really should think about employing some accountants and bookkeepers who actually run practices in the real world rather than entrusting things like this to people straight out of uni who have no idea yet how real business works.

It really looks as though MTD is going to create absolute carnage. Wonder if I can still get a job back in banking!!!!...

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
The accounts software is sound and I know quite a few accountants that use that but use Sage for the bookkeeping so I really can't see VT going belly up for this as what they are talking about abandoning isn't really making them money anyway (compared to the accounts software)...

So what happens when (if) MTD is then brought in for tax? DO VT throw in the towel altogether?

However, I think you'e hit the nail on the head better than me. They may have looked at VTT+ and thought, is it worth spending money on an MTD solution when the returns we'll get don't warrant it? If so, that's a commercial decision they've had to make, but sadly it's one that will push more accounting people towards a cloud option.

Part of me thinks I will continue with VTT+ as long as I can, and part of me thinks I need to make a move towards a solution that has the facility to submit VAT returns. At present I don't have any VAT clients, but what happens if one of them grows and becomes vatable?

VinceH wrote:
AFAICR there is (or was!) nothing about MTD that should prevent you using existing software. In fact, I distinctly recall seeing clarification at one point from El Gov that (to my reading) confirmed this¹ - IIRC, the only thing you'd need to do is get the figures from your existing package into the system.

Just been reading up on it Vince, and it looks like the VAT return will need to be submitted electronically from within the accounts software. (or spreadsheet with the appropriate add on) so it may not be a question of being able to submit the data separately as you can now. They also want to extract supplementary data (whatever that is) at the same time. It will also require a breakdown of the different rates of VAT charged if applicable.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/making-tax-digital-reforms-affecting-businesses/making-tax-digital-for-vat-legislation-overview

Cheshire wrote:
Early retirement to go and sit on a beach

The best idea yet biggrin I may be tempted to join you!

VinceH · Expert

Okay, I've just had a (speed) read of that - and one point immediately jumped out at me.

Firstly, the core VAT return to be submitted is the same 'nine box' return which, on the face of it, is what a lot of software does now. Admittedly I'm clutching at straws slightly here, but...

It's possible that if they keep the API backwards compatible then existing software that can submit returns will still work. One VERY good reason for retaining that backwards compatibility is that the MTD VAT submission requirement is only for business over the VAT threshold. If the software has to be updated because of an API change, that's putting an unnecessary burden on smaller businesses that have voluntarily registered, and whose VAT returns aren't subject to MTD.

It states there is a requirement that it needs to be capable of providing additional data voluntarily. That pretty much means that for businesses that need to comply, an upgrade will be necessary - but I've emphasised one word deliberately. This is where my straw clutching really comes in - if I (well, my clients) don't want to volunteer, would we be able to get away with submitting using existing software via the (hopefully) backwards compatible API?

OTOH, it also mentions the software has to be capable of receiving information from HMRC via the same API. There is a feedback mechanism in the current API (if you use Sage, for example, you can see a small number of reports that come back to you when submitting) - but I don't know if it's limited to specific information under the current system, or capable of receiving more, which might be necessary.

So, clutching at straws I may be able to carry on with what I have but, more realistically, in all likelihood I'll have no choice but to upgrade when the requirements kick in - if I haven't found an alternative solution.

I'm already too bloody busy, but I'm going to have to start looking seriously at all the different packages out there to see if I can find one other than pricey Sage that'll cope with all my requirements - in order to find something that doesn't wipe out a chunk of my income*. I've wanted to do that for years, but I just don't have the time. Now I'm going to be forced to find that time.

And spending time doing that = time not spent on other things. Such as actually earning an income.

* I have a new client, for example, who will have to comply - but to add another company to my copy of Sage would cost more than I'll be charging them; there is very little work to the job, so I was going to use VT. Well, I can for the next year and a half, I suppose.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Hi Vince

It's the collection of supplementary data (1) that concerns me, existing submission software can't do that, nor can they breakdown the VAT rates. That would suggest to me that when adding an invoice and selecting 20%, 5% or zero rate that data is stored in the software and a breakdown is included on the VAT return.

But you raise a very valid point that it means lots of businesses that currently submit via the gateway (as I did because VT+ doesn't have a submission option) will be forced to use alternative software.

On a plus point for your sage clients, I'm guessing sage will upgrade to the new API and submit the required data?

(1) Doesn't appear that this is voluntary, it seems to be collected at the same time of the other VAT data

VinceH · Expert

I'm sure Sage will - if you buy/upgrade to the appropriate version when this comes in. I haven't updated the software after my disagreement with Sage a few years ago. At the time I said I would not give them my custom again unless I have no choice. This MTD malarkey is going to take that choice away unless I can find something else that fits my needs.

As for that supplementary data - quoting the link you provided.

VAT returns

Businesses within the scope of MTD for VAT will be required to submit their VAT returns using their functional compatible software.

The information contained with the VAT return will be generated by pulling information from the digital records. This information will contain as a minimum the 9 boxes required for the VAT return, but can also contain a specific data set of supplementary information - all of which will be pulled from the digital records.

In the MTD consultation response published on 31 January 2017 we envisaged that the deadline for submissions of information for Income Tax and VAT would be aligned. For the time being, however, there will be no change to statutory VAT return or payment dates. We will reconsider the position if and when Making Tax Digital for Income Tax becomes mandatory.

The words 'supplementary information' links to:

Supplementary data

HMRC believes that businesses and HMRC could benefit from the submission of supplementary data. While the simplicity of the ?9 Box? VAT return has advantages for businesses in terms of reduced administrative burdens, because HMRC receives no information about how the figures in the return are arrived at, it is difficult for HMRC to target its ?downstream? compliance activity at customers most likely to be non-compliant.

HMRC will permit, and functional compatible software will provide for, the voluntary submission of supplementary VAT data as part of a VAT return or a voluntary update.

The legislation will describe the information that would be required but, broadly, this will be summary totals of the information required to be kept and preserved electronically as detailed in Annex 1.

This will allow HMRC to test with businesses the extent to which they and HMRC can benefit from such supplementary data.

The words in blue strongly suggest all of the supplementary data is voluntary - though the bit in red stands out a mile. Where something is 'required' it can often mean compulsory, but I should think here it means "If you volunteer to give us this extra data, this is what it must be..."

The breakdown of the VAT rates appears to be in 'Other Information', which is part of 'Annex 1' - which, in turn, is linked from the above 'Supplementary data' section, which should mean it forms part of this voluntary data.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Sorry Vince, I forgot about your non allegiance to sage.

Thanks for the additional info, should have checked it myself before posting.

Redspottedhanky · Veteran Member

What bad news, I have just purchased VTT+ as my first piece of software after setting up. I was nicely convinced by the assurances that the VT team gave on the AWEB site, plus the notices on their site, that MTD wouldn't be a problem. What a waste of £100+ -that was my first months self employed wages gone!

Thank you for all of the information on this thread/ site, it is invaluable and I for one really appreciate the time people take to help others on here.

VinceH · Expert

I wouldn't tear too much hair out in frustration - as I said in another thread earlier, I still think it's possible that we'll see some kind of third party solution to submitting MTD stuff from older software. It may not be free, but I think something will come out.

Edit: Linked to the thread.

-- Edited by VinceH on Friday 6th of October 2017 11:25:32 PM

Leger · Master Book-keeper

I hope you're right Vince. I was giving some thought about this a few days ago and if someone could develop something along those lines they would be on to a winner.

To Claire: You can still use the software for the next 18 months (until VATMTD kicks in) and even then continue to use it for non vat clients. However, if it's a fresh purchase, and you are unhappy, then ask them for a refund.

-- Edited by Leger on Sunday 8th of October 2017 03:26:24 PM

MarkS · Expert

I would be surprised if an alternative to VT wasnt introduced to work with MTD as there must be a mass market of accountants and small businesses who currently use it who would be willing to pay extra for something that worked.

Personally, we will probably look to get all clients into Xero, push the info into IRIS on a quarterly basis and submit under MTD through IRIS.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

MarkS wrote:
Personally, we will probably look to get all clients into Xero, push the info into IRIS on a quarterly basis and submit under MTD through IRIS.

Won't Xero submit the data?

If Taxfiler come up with a submission offer, then I will do exactly the same with VT+

MarkS · Expert

Leger wrote:
MarkS wrote:
Personally, we will probably look to get all clients into Xero, push the info into IRIS on a quarterly basis and submit under MTD through IRIS.
Won't Xero submit the data?
If Taxfiler come up with a submission offer, then I will do exactly the same with VT+

Dont know if quarterly submissions are still on Xero's roadmap. I was at Xerocon the other week and there wasnt any mention of it but is probably due to MTD being on the back burner for now.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

It's got to include quarterly submissions, otherwise the software will be rendered absolutely useless. For sure, like you said you can use IRIS and I can use Taxfiler, but does that mean that all those who currently submit their own VAT are not going to be able to? Be good if that's true but I can't see it happening.

MTD for VAT is less than 18 months away, that's not long and will soon come round.

allisont · Member

Google this company neilson James technology. Looks just the api for vt users

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

allisont wrote:
Google this company neilson James technology. Looks just the api for vt users

This is an old post, not sure if you have seen the more recent ones, but this bit of kit has been mentioned a few times by John.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Morning Joanne

Just over 8 months to the first submissions and still nobody has a scooby. I'd say lol but it's bloody frightening, unless it gets put back again in the Budget. I'm already getting geared up because if HMRC continue with this farce there's going to be a lot of confused business people out there, and I for one will use that to my advantage.

Just gained a xero customer so that will be my first proper foray into the world of cloud accounting, but I can see that quarterly VAT returns can be done on it, and I'm confident that they will make it MTD compliant before April.

Amended to change tax returns to VAT returns

-- Edited by Leger on Sunday 19th of August 2018 07:42:06 PM

VinceH · Expert

Any cloud company that joined in on the "MTD means you must be using Cloud" bandwagon that doesn't manage to be cloud compliant would become a laughing stock.

Well, in a normal, sensible world they would be - these days, I'm not so sure.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Indeed Vince. Just realised I'd put quarterly tax returns on my post, should have read VAT returns (amended now)