MTD sign up for clients VAT due for period May - July - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

MTD sign up for clients VAT due for period May - July

haymac · Veteran Member

Hi Joanne,

I signed up two new clients beginning of August, only just got their VT authorisation codes through and so submitted authorisation codes last Friday, and signed them both up for MTD today. Site says can take up to 72 hours before submission can take place !

Both clients have July quarter end, one pays via DD, I suggested they cancel DD for this quarter submission and set up again end of next month, plenty of time for the next quarter end in October.

Hope this helps :)

johnhemming · Senior Member

It changed from 3 weeks some time ago. For people with DDs it is now more like one week and two days before filing date. You can, of course, cancel the DD.

However, they won't fine people this time either. It is, however, worth people making some steps towards implementing MTD. 120,000 people didn't use the APIs for stagger 1.

I haven't tried to work out exactly the timing for the July period end, but I would think that people still could apply.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Ok, right, Ive defo officially, utterly completely lost the plot!

My CIOT info said I didn't need that long, but I still had the original info in my head.

It's before 7 working days before....so if my counting by fingers is correct last day for sign up is tomorrow....so that's a job to do before lunch.

I'm pretty sure this client will not want to cancel their D/D. A large vat bill is likely and they like the extra days cashflow.

Thanks John for setting me right.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Tuesday 27th of August 2019 11:31:47 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Julie
Thanks for the info. Was signing up via VT easy? I'm thinking of using John's software, plus having VT as a backup.

I'm dicing with death on this one, it's all going to be last minute. Cannot be helped, it's always the same. Did manage to get them down to provision of info and return done within 21 days last quarter but it almost killed me with the hours I was doing, plus its wasn't their year end, so I have that nightmare this time.

haymac · Veteran Member

Hi Joanne,

Just a quick query..... you say .`Did manage to get them down to provision of info and return done within 21 days last quarter` ?

I normally only receive paperwork within the last week of the month after the return quarter end, that is, for my July quarter end customers, I am only receiving their paperwork now, and normally working right up to deadline date ! This month alone I have 11 returns to do and this is my lightest quarter.

As much as I have tried to organise them, with the exception of a couple of clients, I gave up given up and accept the longer days / nights in processing their returns.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Julie

I have a clause in my LOE which states I need all info within 21 days or I will not guarantee to hit the deadline. This coupled with if they are late but want me to try to meet the deadline they pay my day rate which is higher than the usual charge out rate. I've never. Den late with one (yet).

But this client is a huge one, it could easily employ a bookkeeper working 3 days a week and the info flow is crucial. Issue is they are manually driven, one Director has tried to install more automation, but even the photocopier was broken in a week, never mind other more complex stuff. Plus they are margin scheme and don't keep their own Stock book.... I do! There are a million queries!! Often frustrating but also weirdly quite rewarding. But trying to filter it in with other vat clients in same quarter is a challenge when they store up the queries until the week before the deadline!

Sorry for worse typos than usual, on my phone and can't see what I'm typing!

johnhemming · Senior Member

Tom or I would be happy to talk you through this if we can plan a time. I have three ways of doing Margin scheme. One is a simple bridging approach, one is where there is a cashbook with the margin cost where the system calculates the VAT on the margin. There is a third one (that we have not got to work yet and are working on) where the stockbook is maintained as well. However, we have made submissions using both simply bridging (for antique dealers and car traders) and the margin cashbook (for antiques).

I would like to get the integrated stockbook (third option) running at some stage, but that is not something to do in a rush. It should be able to handle work done on second hand cars and the like and track that by stock item number.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
It's before 7 working days before....so if my counting by fingers is correct last day for sign up is tomorrow....so that's a job to do before lunch.

Flip. or words to that affect!! I haven't transferred my new client over yet. Been concentrating on getting the VAT return done and thinking I had oodles of time, that's crept up ever so fast. Return has been finalised today so I'm ready to submit. Am I best off doing it the old way (he is on my VAT agent account) and warn him he'll get a nudge letter, or do the sign over today and hope it comes through tomorrow, which I guess is unlikely. Presumably if I sign him up for MTD and it doesn't come through tomorrow, I wont be able to file before the deadline?

EDIT: The deadline is today, I've just worked it out.

-- Edited by Leger on Wednesday 28th of August 2019 11:29:56 AM

johnhemming · Senior Member

Last month HMRC gave formal advice not to sign up too late, but instead to wait until a week after submitting. The other option is to cancel the direct debit and make a payment via BACS.

-- Edited by johnhemming on Wednesday 28th of August 2019 03:27:37 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

johnhemming wrote:
Tom or I would be happy to talk you through this if we can plan a time. I have three ways of doing Margin scheme. One is a simple bridging approach, one is where there is a cashbook with the margin cost where the system calculates the VAT on the margin. There is a third one (that we have not got to work yet and are working on) where the stockbook is maintained as well. However, we have made submissions using both simply bridging (for antique dealers and car traders) and the margin cashbook (for antiques).

I would like to get the integrated stockbook (third option) running at some stage, but that is not something to do in a rush. It should be able to handle work done on second hand cars and the like and track that by stock item number.

Hi John

Thanks for the offer. Good idea.

This one has a stockbook (thats one nightmare, for me anyway) and also its all run via sage as sales and purchases invoices via sage. I can explain more, happily!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Leger wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
It's before 7 working days before....so if my counting by fingers is correct last day for sign up is tomorrow....so that's a job to do before lunch.
Flip. or words to that affect!! I haven't transferred my new client over yet. Been concentrating on getting the VAT return done and thinking I had oodles of time, that's crept up ever so fast. Return has been finalised today so I'm ready to submit. Am I best off doing it the old way (he is on my VAT agent account) and warn him he'll get a nudge letter, or do the sign over today and hope it comes through tomorrow, which I guess is unlikely. Presumably if I sign him up for MTD and it doesn't come through tomorrow, I wont be able to file before the deadline?
EDIT: The deadline is today, I've just worked it out.

-- Edited by Leger on Wednesday 28th of August 2019 11:29:56 AM

I saw John H's note - I probably shouldve left mind. But as you say deadline was yesterday - so I signed them up yesterday afternoon (fingers crossed!!)

johnhemming · Senior Member

The submission receipt says whether they expect to take the money with a DD or not.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Cheshire wrote:
I saw John H's note - I probably shouldve left mind. But as you say deadline was yesterday - so I signed them up yesterday afternoon (fingers crossed!!)

Oh, please let me know how you get on. I wasn't sure whether the client needed to be signed up AND accepted by the deadline, or just signed up. Rather than take a chance I've left it and informed the client about the nudge letter.

johnhemming · Senior Member

The difficulty, of course, is not knowing whether the direct debit is going to go through. If people sign up close to the deadline then it may go wrong. However, I am not aware of people being penalised for late payment if that is as a consequence of MTD. The safest option is to sign anyone up to MTD as soon as possible after the last non-MTD vat return.

If anyone has any problems with clients with not signing up I can try to get the HMRC email which says not to sign up close to the deadline.

-- Edited by johnhemming on Friday 30th of August 2019 02:37:31 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Folks
Ive just submitted a VAT return via VT and have the submission receipt.

Does it usually show on teh submission receipt if the D/D is being taken, or is it on something else?

Also - John H, if I may. I would like to get a client set up on your software. Sorry to be a pain but can you please direct me to the right You Tube video for this? TIA

johnhemming · Senior Member

If you want me to help tomorrow I will take you through the process on the phone. Just drop me an email.

The Cirrostratus videos are here:

www.youtube.com/channel/UC7uAgQ5tY3tG8jDWLIICdoQ

The submission receipt should indicate if a DD is being taken.

The specification is here:
developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/docs/api/service/vat-api/1.0

This is the format of a receipt:
{
"processingDate": "2018-01-16T08:20:27.895+0000",
"paymentIndicator": "BANK",
"formBundleNumber": "256660290587",
"chargeRefNumber": "aCxFaNx0FZsCvyWF"
}

if it says paymentIndicator: DD

then it is a dd.

It will take less time on the phone than watching one of the videos.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi John
Thank you a phone call would be great. I have emailed you.

Just as an update the submission recepts I have contains the following info:-

Software name:
VT Transaction+

Software ID:
zQYL3TO2woJfUTPdEEe4ypcmQ1ga

Company/business name:
xxxxxx

VAT registration number:
xxxxxxxx

Period:
1 May 2019 to 31 Jul 2019

Net VAT due to HMRC:
£

Receipt ID:
xxxxxxxxxxx

Time stamp (GMT):
2019-09-04T20:00:20Z

Surprise, surprise no D/D information. That said, client has confirmed that he can see a new D/D on his Bank account - set up, but with nil value as not yet claimed.

Thanks

johnhemming · Senior Member

The Problem is that I don't know how VT works. It could be that they don't provide the payment indicator. Alternatively it could be that the payment indicator was absent.

The only option is to keep an eye on the bank and see if the DD goes through and if it doesn't go through make a payment. Your client will probably have to give HMRC a day or so to get it through.
In the circumstances I would not expect a penalty to be demanded (In the event that the DD does not go through and the payment is, therefore, late), but it is worth keeping a copy of the receipt above and the record at the bank to demonstrate that it is either VT not providing the information or HMRC not providing a payment indicator. Sadly receipts cannot be looked up via other MTD software whereas things like the return and any liabilities can be looked up via other software.

-- Edited by johnhemming on Thursday 5th of September 2019 05:23:58 AM

VinceH · Expert

Hi Joanne,

I was a little worried about the DD on one client when I submitted their VAT rerturn via MTD about a month ago. The software I used did show the DD indicator that John H mentions, but I was concerned because I didn't get an email to say it would be taken, while I did for a different client. (IIRC, I mentioned this here).

The amount due was quite a large chunk of money, so on the last day the payment could be made by the company I rang HMRC to check - and recorded the call just in case (a seventeen-ish minute call, with only the last couple of minutes the actual conversation) - and got them to reassure me that they could see a DD was set up and would be taken.

Oddly enough, the day after a manual payment would have had to reach them, the email finally came through to say a DD would be taken.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi John and Vince
Not seen an email about this but have asked my client to check their emails/spam folder and keeping fingers crossed. They are relatively relaxed about the whole thing. Time will tell! Thanks for the info.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

By way of an update...
Just to clarify - I submitted this through VTT+ bridging, rather than processing their VAt via the VT main software.

VT did not show the D/D info on the submission receipt.

The client did not receive an email confirming the D/D would be claimed and the D/D has not gone out of the account this morning.

Client can however see the new D/D set up via their Bank. Also via his HMRC business dashboard he can that a new D/D has been set up.

Phoned HMRC this morning - they can see the VAT return has arrived (4th September). Their records show the D/D was set up 3rd Sep (it was actually set up online on 28th August), so with a 3 day set up (!), it then shows as live on 5th. ie in time to claim.

Problem appears to be, despite receiving the VAT return, their system has not updated the clients balance, hence no D/D has been generated.

HMRC have suggested they can still claim the D/D up to 12th, so client is to check their Bank again tomorrow and if no payment, phone again (!) and make a direct/faster payment instead.

They have confirmed that they will not be placed in a surcharge period. I have a call reference.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Not too bad then Joanne. I'd have probably been ok but just didn't want to risk it. Once the 19th has passed I'll sign him in for MTD.

johnhemming · Senior Member

HMRC really should always provide a payment indicator. Then it would be clear what they think they are going to do. I am pleased that they have confirmed that there will be no penalty. To be fair if someone had been charged a penalty in this situation there would be a big fuss.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Totally agree on the big fuss - it wouldve been me making on one the phone, but they did say they are taking a view with all clients given the issues on the table at the moment. It is best to phone in to get it on record though to aid their decision making, but it will be obvious the ones who will take the proverbial from their account history.