Ooh, nice topic

seems wierd doesn't it that the one from the top is the need to be loved but the one at the top is the realisation that we don't need the approval of others. We need only to the approval of ourselves.

the theories become easier to comprehend from a business perspective when compared to the motivtional aspects of Herzbergs hygene theory.

For a more complete picture try working through these.

Have fun,

Shaun.

 

Leger wrote:

---

Way above my head Joanne, sorry.

---

 I was out as soon as I saw the word 'intellectual'

I understand Maslows hierarchy and how it relates to the psycology behind base motivations and its importance in management theory.

I don't understand the toilet paper?... UNLESS... we are having a site game of where did they hide all the toilet paper....

is it in Tesco's




its not in Tesco's

Is it in Sainsbury's

Its not in Sainsbury's

Is it in Lidl

...f*ck knows, you wouldn't catch me dead in there...

 

The one that really helps and EVRYONE in this business should know is porters five forces. Its like being given a crystal ball as when you look at businesses, you ponder the five forces and then think. "Yer doomed mate".

I suppose throw in there the Boston consulting group matrix, mendelows matrix, a bit of the three E's and a smidgen of SWOT analysis and you've got a pretty good management consultants bag of tricks at your disposal.

I find theories like Maslow to be more stating the obvious but when you know it exists you look at real life and relate it back.

Its not really a methodology that you employ to get from A to B but rather a methodology that when you are at B you understand how and why you went from A.

In real terms it looks at why we do what we do in a world where most people are simply asking how to do something.

I think in this case it's probably more like 90/10 (along with the loo roll and pasta).

Shamus wrote:

---

The one that really helps and EVRYONE in this business should know is porters five forces. Its like being given a crystal ball as when you look at businesses, you ponder the five forces and then think. "Yer doomed mate".

I suppose throw in there the Boston consulting group matrix, mendelows matrix, a bit of the three E's and a smidgen of SWOT analysis and you've got a pretty good management consultants bag of tricks at your disposal.

I find theories like Maslow to be more stating the obvious but when you know it exists you look at real life and relate it back.

Its not really a methodology that you employ to get from A to B but rather a methodology that when you are at B you understand how and why you went from A.

In real terms it looks at why we do what we do in a world where most people are simply asking how to do something.

---

Oh yep, used most of those more in my past life, a must for any businesses including our own, although you will be surprised that most just think a SWOT covers everything!   I do use some currently, albeit not in any 'organised' way generally if that makes sense. Increasingly important.

Lorry10 wrote:

---

Did anyone who looked at or used the theories Shaun mentioned, also look into where they came from ?

 

 

---

Yes.

 

Also know Shaun has.

Being contentious here but I do not believe that there is such a thing as gender or age related differences. Only gender or age related biases propogated by societal stereotyping that program children from birth into a gender based stereotype and with that societies view towards age.

In Japan for instance age is respected as bringing wisdom where in the west it is regarded with somewhat less respect.

Your earlier respect for Elton Mayo is a good example of societal stereotyping in that his approach works only for a subservient workforce where power is given by acceptance of hierarchy reinforced by creation of pseudo groups of individuals perceived to be one's peers.

As a consultant I see it in the workplace a lot where people are so concerned about their place within a firms hierarchy that they miss completely that the hierarchy itself has no importance beyond the walls of that firm. In my own life I have seen it where I have chased a management grade only for years later to pass the site where the firms building once stood which makes one ponder the importance of temporary aspiration where for Mayo that seems to be the ultimate goal.

You see it with a lot of the theorists that they perceive the workforce as subjects as if studying animals or insects, not in any way preceiving such subjects as their equals. Yet I for one see no biological diffeence between the subject and the observer. Only the difference in how they were raised, educated and allowed to beleive.

As noted by Joanne, I have read the works of all of the management theorists, some great, some not so much, and some who just did not see how their theories might be implemented... A little like Einstein not seeing how E=MC squared might be implemented.

The key I feel is reading all of them and comparing and contrasting to develop ones own approach rather than looking at the works of any as being in any way a roadmap to be followed to a given end.

Of Mayo I feel that his theories work for the sheep, but not work for the wolves.

All the best,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 31st of March 2020 03:07:44 AM

Hi Lorraine,

As I say, women are absolutely no different to men. I've raised my son on his own since he was 18 months old. Many men do and have to say, I think that we do a pretty good job of it. Absolutely no reason at all for women to single themselves out on that one. Try another, you are not going to convince me that women are in any way different in the workplace to men except from their own perceptions. Have a read up on Imposter Syndrome from the work of Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes (1978) which look into the psycology behind why women in particular think the way that they do.

Your statement about age related cognitive and physical decline again stereotypes common perceptions and feeds into age related bias which is very prevelent in the UK workplace. As with other parts of the body the brain is a muscle that needs to be flexed to keep it working to its full. The issue is not that peoples cognitive ability declines but rather people become lazy, they stop finding the wonder in things or asking why. Once they stop then decline starts. Personally I was early fifties before I got my letters, and only passed my Masters in economics with one of the worlds top ten Uni's a couple of years ago.

Both arguements look to stereotype in creating a perceived norm so in themselves creating bias based on societal expectations. i.e. women raise children and you're over the hill at 40. Rather than perpetuating the myths consider what makes you have those misconceptions. Why did you develop those embedded truths that you accept as given where other societies do not.

Think that we'll agree to differ on Mayo as the most subservient workforces are those who do not realise that they are. Differing is the great thing about debating theorists in that we have thought through their theories and take away from them different things especially when comparing and contrasting against other theorists. For example, Johnson, Scholes and Whittington to my mind are not theorists or great management thinkers. They simply stand on the shoulders of better men and bring theories of others together. Without reading all of the others people wouldn't see that.

For me the god of theorists is Micheal Porter. The theories are relatively simple yet put accross in such a way that really makes you look at companies as though looking into their future.

I find that banks and other financial institutions ethics tend to align with my thinking and try wherever possible to work with those but on occassional I work with smaller entities and have to say that the number of times that there is a distinct difference in attitude between FTSE 350 companies and FTSE 100 ones in that you see ethics as being a banner of convenience rather than a standard of existence.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Lorry10 wrote:

---

Hello again Shaun, 

Yes, perhaps it sounded like I was generalising when I said women may want to take time out of a career to have a family, since men may want or need to also. But, it is always women who must take some time off for pre-birth and post-birth, and deal with any  career consequences. And its more usually the case that its women who do the childcare, but not always, like you say. 

Male of female it is a choice to have children. A situation that I have often encountered in the workplace is the anger of career women towards those who choose a family expecting to be treated as though they worked without gap and step back in exactly where they left off. No, that is unfair on women in the workplace. By all means get back into it, work hard and rebuild position but one cannot simply expect to step out and step back as some do.

I've also sat in meetings where it's being decided who to promote and encountered positive discrimination where it is suggested that some people may be promoted over more worthy candidates in order to meet corporate quota's. If I were a woman or ethnic minority I would be seriously annoyed at being promoted based on either gender or race over ability not least as that immediately undermines one's credibility with those who work for you. And if I were stepped over for such reason my CV would be with recruiters the same day. 

I'm not surprised at anyone getting qualifications in their fifties (I certainly plan to), age-related cognitive decline starts much later.

But your arguement was based on people of working age and there isn't a lot of working age left after your fifties.

Although it may leave a lot of ability for some, there are chemical and biological changes in the brain through aging.

If the brain is becoming lazy change it. Personally in order to get into studying accountancy I learnt to write and speak Thai which opened up parts of the brain that had been gathering dust since my school days and gave a boost to my overall ability to learn.

I don't think you can just blame any age-related changes on laziness, or generalise your personal experience to the remainder of the population. There are genetic influences that vary from person to person, and diet, lifestyle, that all play an influence too.

Diet and lifestyle are personal choices. Maybe I should have used the word complacency rather than lazyness

I don't think women are over the hill at 40 or any particular age - ermm.....that would include me, wouldn't it? Why would I work (3 jobs) and study (another degree, more accounting qualifications),  if, as you suggest, I have an embedded belief that I must be past it now? 

You misunderstand. I was demonstrating societies view that over 40 you are seen by many as past being able to change roles. As someone older I am certainly not argueing the case that it is right

Physical decline  due to aging, is experienced by everyone, discounting the affects of work/hobbies/lifestyle that can bring on certain issues earlier. I think a poster on this forum even mentioned as much regarding their eyesight and using a computer. I know I suffer from arthritic-like issues already, I have used a computer through all of my working life and studies. No, it wouldn't stop me, but it might just slow me down a little as I get older, if it gets worse. If there is no physical decline through aging and its all just stereotyping and bias - why do they retire all those firemen early ? 

The quality of your screen matters a lot when using a computer. Try to only use Iiyama's with 1ms response and a high  refresh rate attached to a good quality graphics card such as a GTX750-ti or higher. Never, ever use laptops for long periods. That said, from my reading there is no direct link between macular degeneration and cognitive degeneration. Absolutely no idea why they retire firemen early when steel workers and (in the past) miners worked until normal retirement age. And farmers often work well past it.

Its a pity that you don't want to believe that I have witnessed a working example of Mayo's (or as close as you can probably get) in action, because that could sound like stereo-typing and bias on your part in making  assumptions about a workplace that you have never seen, and about people that you have never met, and about my ability to observe and interpret the dynamics of the workplace accurately. 

I didn't say that I do not believe what you believe that you have witnessed. I am saying that I fundamentally disagree with Mayo's approach which is a building block of collective responsibility and the self subsumed within corporate hierachy given false impresions of relative importance.

Your opinion may be that they are subservient, and that they are just not aware of that fact, but I think there are one or two PHD's in that workplace that would be a bit offended by that-  they are experts in their field. 

I think that a lot of people no matter their education do not think outside the box and become quite insular to the companies that they become embedded within. A PHd working for a single company is like a caged bird. Have these PHd's considered working as consultants or non executive directors? (I assume that their PHd's are in economics?). I've actually pondered a PHd next myself as an MBA is just a sideways step from an MSc. Only issue at my age is commiting to five to seven years of study but at the same time two years post MSc. I'm already gnashing at the bit to get back at it again. Just the way I'm wired.

Michael Porter ? Laters, Shaun. For me, just now, its lunchtime.  

Michael Porter, yes. A residant at the Harvard Business School. Very much big picture thinking such as the influence of Governments and market forces.

To quote Gordon Gecko. Lunch is for wimps.

---

Hi Lorraine,

replies embedded,

Shaun.

Lorry10 wrote:

---

Hey, you can't say that Shaun.

You have never seen my lunch!  I dont think he was saying their was anything wrong with your lunch

I can't address everything right now, as I need to check in with 2 family members who are self-isolating to make sure they are ok today.

But you can be sure I will, lol.

Laters,

L.

---

 

Hello Shaun, 

Thoughts so far -  

Male of female it is a choice to have children. Not always, accidents and unplanned pregnancies do happen, and people can make mistakes in relationships or  think they will last longer than they do, then end up as sole caregivers to children. Life isn't always that simple.  

 A situation that I have often encountered in the workplace is the anger of career women towards those who choose a family expecting to be treated as though they worked without gap and step back in exactly where they left off. No, that is unfair on women in the workplace. By all means get back into it, work hard and rebuild position but one cannot simply expect to step out and step back as some do. This sounds like you have already seen then that Maslows hierarchy, upon which other theories were built,  may not be flexible enough to account for maternity or paternity career breaks  - the person loses ground on the hierarchy. This was my initial question, I asked whether opinion was that the theories were flexible enough .

 But your arguement was based on people of working age and there isn't a lot of working age left after your fifties 1. No, you limited the age range to working age in your initial response, to which I then commented (although I can see why you assumed working ages). Maslows hierarchy, which was the start of this thread, wasnt introduced for workplaces. It was a humanist psychology theory that was later  borrowed by management theorists, I think they may have even added the triangular hierarchy which I dont believe was how Maslow originally envisioned his theory working. 2. Back to age matters, it sounded like you believed that I only meant older people when I initially referred to age-related differences.  I also have questions as to how valid Maslows theory is for the young. Would you say that a well-cared for baby or child has self-actualised ? He/she could tick all the boxes on the hierarchy its just that the food, safety, belongingness, and recognition are all provided by the family or caregivers. Its not quite what Maslow meant though, is it ? 3. The state pension age could increase to 70 years one day, especially after recent economic events,  a fair bit of time from early fifties to still be working (at least it sure seems like it to me ).  

 If the brain is becoming lazy change it. Personally in order to get into studying accountancy I learnt to write and speak Thai which opened up parts of the brain that had been gathering dust since my school days and gave a boost to my overall ability to learn. Sorry Shaun, but I dont believe parts of the brain are ever unused or inaccessible,  not unless there is brain damage in an individual. My view would be that you formed new neural pathways  or altered existing ones by learning something new.  The brain isnt a muscle, its an organ. But well done on learning Thai, that must have been challenging.  

 Diet and lifestyle are personal choices. Maybe I should have used the word complacency rather than laziness. Sometimes.  But there is also education and access to information as contributing factors, and knowledge about whats good for you is important.  Smoking was once advertised as a diet aid for women. Milk was long promoted as a nutritional food source because it was accessible, but research doesnt support the dairy industrys claims about how good it  is for you. Then there is economics, and time, of course some people cant afford good food (or enough food) and  some people are very busy with work and their lives, and end up just going for processed food. Its likely the intake of processed food will increase during the pandemic,  but because of external circumstances, not personal choice.

 You misunderstand. I was demonstrating societies view that over 40 you are seen by many as past being able to change roles. 

I'm part of that society, so  I guess I was included either way. For feedback, the reason I understood your post as referring directly to me at points were due to comments you made such as 

 Your statement about age related cognitive and physical decline again stereotypes common perceptions and feeds into age related bias which is very prevelent in the UK workplace. And

 Rather than perpetuating the myths consider what makes you have those misconceptions.

Remember that I used the term decline  - that doesnt mean individuals would be  incapable of getting qualifications or holding down a job. I only said that for certain professions and jobs aging might lead to having to change what they did for a living - particularly for physically demanding jobs and those requiring high levels of manual dexterity.

The quality of your screen matters a lot when using a computer. Try to only use Iiyama's with 1ms response and a high  refresh rate attached to a good quality graphics card such as a GTX750-ti or higher. Never, ever use laptops for long periods. That said, from my reading there is no direct link between macular degeneration and cognitive degeneration. Absolutely no idea why they retire firemen early when steel workers and (in the past) miners worked until normal retirement age. And farmers often work well past it. 1. Thank you, the eyesight issue I mentioned was on someone elses post but thats useful, I use a laptop all the time what is the  issue there ?  If you want to share it, I think it may have been Jay that mentioned this, although he is retiring. I mentioned arthritic-like symptoms of the hands. 2. I do know why they retire firemen early -  because their joints wear out. Just like older people experience, but later in life. The body doesnt repair as efficiently as you get older. 3. Miners ? I come from a mining community. It was about money and economics. Numbers of them died horribly later in life from lung diseases, and compensation for families wasnt introduced until 1999.  The next generation got to see exactly what their job would probably do to them one day, but people needed the work, and health and safety for those workers was poor at times.

I didn't say that I do not believe what you believe that you have witnessed. I am saying that I fundamentally disagree with Mayo's approach which is a building block of collective responsibility and the self subsumed within corporate hierachy given false impresions of relative importance. Not in the example I refer to, it consists of  groups of different types of experts and support staff working together for a common goal. They are all working in a field that they are very much interested in and enjoy,  and its great to be around a workforce like that. False impressions of relative importance ? That just wouldnt work on this particular group they wouldnt be any more interested in that kind of thing than I would be. Yes, they have worked elsewhere lecturing in their subject at  university, and working on research. They are currently contributing to a project, and that contribution is limited to  the length of the project.    

I've actually pondered a PHd next myself as an MBA is just a sideways step from an MSc. Only issue at my age is commiting to five to seven years of study but at the same time two years post MSc. I'm already gnashing at the bit to get back at it again. Just the way I'm wired.

If thats your inclination you should  go for it, Shaun.  And all the very best with it.

 

Replies embedded, 

Lorraine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-- Edited by Lorry10 on Thursday 2nd of April 2020 02:51:58 AM

 

It sure does Shaun and until you read the book in full, you can't be certain that it aint. I take it the author is American?  Please..... don't tell that its another bestselling pop psychology book, with little or no research evidence to support it ? They are a dime a dozen. 

 

The brain physically rewires itself after a serious injury ??? No neuroscientist would make such a bold claim. Not when they have all had to study conditions like aphasia and agnosia and how the earliest cases cited in neuroscience, and from where much of the knowledge about areas of the brain was gained , were based on the memory or cognitive deficits experienced by  individuals who had unfortunately experienced brain trauma or brain surgery. He may have said that there were some compensatory mechanisms post-injury, or as individuals age, but surely he didnt claim that the brain would re-wire from serious brain injury? 

 

And sure, so  you learned Thai in your 40's, Shaun. Even if it was true that individuals  become more contemplative of their own thoughts  during that period (and how anyone could evidence that scientifically I will be really interested to hear more on from you - it sounds anecdotal) that doesn't exclude the ability to form new memories, nor learn new patterns of behaviour, does it? You didn't re-wire to learn Thai - you didn't need to. You learn new information every day, most folks do.  In fact, as a member of the animal kingdom, if you weren't able do that, you just wouldnt be able to survive, unassisted. And are you really arguing now that there are age-related cognitive changes ? And that you addressed yours by learning a language ? Before, you appeared to be pretty adamant that there wasn't, it was just society's discriminatory and biased  view.  

 

Playing  the piano is controlled by a different area of the brain from facial recognition, and is a very different capability, so no surprises there either.  I will say that the research on left and right hemisphere development that has been carried out on pianists (this is completely unrelated to aging) is very  interesting,  and a surprise for neuroscientists, methinks. Have a good read, if you are genuinely interested in psychology and neuroscience. 

 

Incase you werent aware, it was Trinity College, Dublin and Edinburgh University that published research that suggested memory improvements and better logical processing could be achieved as one ages, through practising puzzles like Sudoku, or crosswords it sounds like it could be  that research that the author is trying to mock.  

 

 Sounds like you picked the right article to leave in the bathroom and thanks for the context.  

 

 As for your comments on the mining industry  - have you been keeping reading material  from  British Coal Board in the loo as well ? After all, they wouldn't be the first employer to big up their health and safety procedures to the outside world, and deny any responsibility for employees' work-related health issues. I guess the question you need to ask yourself Shaun, is If health and safety was as good for the miners as you say, then why was the total compensation pay-outs for the damage done to their health the biggest industrial compensation pay-out in the history of the UK? 

 

Do you not recall this from the news at the time ? The compensation claims  involved tens of thousands of miners , and more than ten thousand widowed miners' wives, all who suffered. That's not extremely good nor very, very safety conscious, not by any stretch. 

 

You didn't answer on my  query re laptops, which is a pity as I might not have been the only person interested in the answer to that, especially during a UK lockdown.   

 

Ah, well. 

 Ah.....'room for improvement',  is it then ?

The only problem is -  I didn't do what you are saying.  I questioned views that weren't supported by scientific evidence and that were being declared as facts, and I asked if your interpretation of the neuroscientist s claims that you were quoting, was correct. I also raised that it sounded like the article you were quoting might be mocking research from Scotland and Ireland.

 Yes, you used the article to reinforce something that you stated as a fact based on your own personal experience  - merely anecdotal then -  but only by mentioning a neuroscientist. I would like  to hear the scientific research that supports the claim, or at least a bit more evidence than one persons subjective experience and the mention of a magazine article with a neuroscientist mentioned in it, before accepting it as a fact. Please post this, I'd like to read it. 

Do I really think that a magazine like that would be reviewing self-help books?  - Yes, I think its possible, given the changes in the publication in the last few years. Have you read the book that you refer to now, and is there much scientific evidence in there? Does the author that you quote write self-help books? You said yourself that it sounded like one.

 Re  - Surely where you read makes no difference. Quite. So why share the toilet details when it wasn't necessary.  I guess you will know why you did....

Re miners  - you are the first person that I have heard refer to these type of workers as staff, and I grew up in a mining community.  Presumably you thought the eventual compensation pay-outs were wrong and undeserved, based on your view that miners health and safety was 'prioritised' by their employer. I agree that it would be a very good idea to leave any debate there, since this forum member, and possibly some others reading (remember how many compensation claims there were, many thousands), witnessed a relative suffering from  lung and other health problems before they died,  because they had worked in mines. You might just upset someone.

And anyway, you did enough on that on Sunday lunch you said,  when you were.....

 ....I know you were management Shaun, you have mentioned that you worked in management a few times now.

 I, on the other hand, was never very interested in being a manager, although I was asked to,  a few times.  I did however spend a fair bit of time at university studying psychology, including neuropsychology, which is why I know a little bit about it.

 

 

-- Edited by Lorry10 on Monday 20th of April 2020 09:05:26 PM

Hi John, 

 

Yes, it took a long time didnt it, for them to get that. The miners felt that the risks had been known for some time and that not enough had been done to protect their health in the job, like providing enough masks.

 

I am aware of several stories about health and safety in the mining area that I was, but I have said I would like to leave this subject now, please. And since I wasnt there, I cant be certain how accurate the accounts were. But some did involve fatalities on site, sadly.

 

Its a shame you wont join in on the psychology theories there usually is something in psychology for everyone to get interested in, and a lot of research is easily accessible now online.  Some theories are more reliable than others of course, so dont believe everything you read, its always best to keep a healthy cynicism and look out for flaws in the studies.

 

 

I have already said why I would like to leave it, Casu. Try and have a little sensitivity, there.

 

Family members and neighbours worked underground in the mining area  where I grew up, not pit-face jobs and not management, they suffered later for it, trust me.

 

And I guess I am just one of those funny folks that didnt really want to hear about someone on the toilet, in a reply to me.

 

I did work in my degree subject area for a while thanks, before I moved areas and jobs, and its a shame that you feel that I didnt add anything to this discussion. Feel free to pick up the thread yourself and add something. 

 

And since you are discussing feedback, I feel that some of your posts on the forum sound a bit too aggressive at times and might even deter people from posting further. That didnt seem to be the case with my posts on this thread Shaun replied each time. After all, nowt wrong with a debate and exploring different views on the Time Out thread. 

 

This is possibly the most ironic series of accusations that I have ever had the delight to be on the receiving end of.

 

Can I go now?  

John, I wont be back on the forum, so no point in posting to me.  I participated and I posted  - numerous free training courses, answered a few  bookkeeping questions, took part in the Time Out thread (and didn't ask any bookkeeping questions of the forum during this time)  -  all because you asked me to, on the Anti Money Laundering thread in February, saying that the forum was dying. I thought it would be some sort of return for questions that I had had answered in the past.

 

Do you recall that ? I initially posted in February  on the Anti Money Laundering thread due to what appeared to me to be an unfair and heavy-handed approach by two regular forum members towards one new and inexperienced member. The new member never posted on the forum again. 

 

I also posted to see whether the complaints of the regular forum members within that thread were right,  but I cant say that I found it to be the case that posters didnt say thank you. I found mostly they did, and sometimes they didnt. It didnt trouble me much when they didnt, it was my choice to post and I could always just leave it the next time if I had felt strongly about it.  

 

What did trouble me though was some of the posts from regulars. Case in point on this thread, prior to yours. And its not the first time, is it, not even in my individual case. Theres another nice example on the Deleted Reconciled Transaction thread in March, which  again targets that same new forum member. I didnt think much of the  penguin slap/shut up video post on the Time Out thread from a regular, just because  I was trying  to defend the new member on the Anti Money Laundering thread to them, I just didn't mention that I had seen it. 

 

Whilst I am more than capable of dealing with inappropriate or challenging behaviour or indeed ignoring it as I initially tried doing (after all, it might just have been someone having a bad day), I really dont want to go along with treating others like that. By taking part, it looks like I am. When I tried challenging it the first time on the Anti Money Laundering thread, regulars from the core group on this forum just wouldnt have it. That seems quite oppressive. 

 

And so, and perhaps due to that, here I am again today, 2 months later (and those other times in between) experiencing the same issue. Maybe tomorrow, it will be someone else. But I really do hope not.   

 

Oh,.... and I understood what prompted the 1,2,3  joke,  even when not everyone else seemed to, but I could see that you did John. 

 

Its all yours folks - 

 

And good luck. 

 

 

Lorry10 wrote:

---

Ok, I started to respond last night but thought better of it as no matter how logical or respectful the responses have been you have found some way to manipulate, twist and take personal insult at the words of almost everyone that you have spoken to on the site. I am only responding now as I do not want others taking the fallout from your frustrations at believing something and not understanding why others cannot see it.

This thread could have expanded peoples horizons but instead it got sidelined it with imagined issues faced by only by women in the workplace in this business, or accountancy in general.

I am reminded here very much of when someone from the office at a social event very loudly in front of senior management accused me of racism (I had promoted someone above him who on paper was less qualified but she was actually doing all the work) and he went into a diatribe about people like me.

Luckily it was an open to spouses event so I was able to simply smile and when he had finished say "Have you met the wife".

Similarly you are apparently talking from a position of imagined moral and knowledge superiortity without knowing anything about the people that you are confronting.

A couple of correction though I feel are needed

 

Family members and neighbours worked underground in the mining area  where I grew up, not pit-face jobs and not management, they suffered later for it, trust me.

Do you actually know what the pit face is. Are you confusing the Pit Face with the Pit Head.

And I guess I am just one of those funny folks that didnt really want to hear about someone on the toilet, in a reply to me.

It emphasised that it was casual rather than serious reading. 

....I know you were management Shaun, you have mentioned that you worked in management a few times now

That was really condescending where I had only mentioned such where it was relevant to the conversation. 

---

Ok, don't know about anyone else but I'm done with this thread. Its no longer about meaningful discussion but just self perpetuating arguement.

From your last reply I am assuming that we have lost you Lorraine. Whilst losing any site contributor is a tragedy sometimes clashes of personalities make peoples continued involvement in a forum impossible to maintain. Your decision is possibly for the best.

We wish you luck with the future, especially the next couple of years which I believe are going to be difficult times indeed for many, if not all of us.

Shaun.