What do bookkeepers spend most of their time doing? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

catcat · Member

What do bookkeepers spend most of their time doing?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Catherine,

sounds as though you're in exactly the same position as myself. There are a few other ACCA people on here as well. Quite a lot turn to bookkeeping due to childcare issues being at odds with the dawn till midnight life of an accountant.

The ACCA rules still take precedence over the ICB. You're basically restricted to whichever supervisory body is the strictest so even if the ICB tells you that you can do sole traders books the ACCA would stomp on you for it.

Plus of course, until you've got a practicing certificate from the ACCA you're not even allowed to mention to clients that you're actually a trained accountant with them!

As ACCA if you want you can get exemptions from the ACCA exams but I took them anyway as I found that I had spent so long doing the seriously heavy stuff that I thought that I had forgotten the basics.

Best thing about ICB is that when you get your practicing certificate (doesn't take long) you're covered for money laundering regs and the PII insurance is pretty cheap through them.

Clients do regard us in lower esteem than accountants but then our rates tend to be less than half that of accountants.

Unfortunately I haven't got time at the moment to give a full answer to you're question but will fill this out into an epic in the morning.

Talk soon,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Friday 5th of February 2010 09:40:27 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

As promised, part 2 of the reply.

As an ACCA bod no matter which other bodies you join or exams you take the restriction remains on basic bookkeeping, VAT and Payroll.

If you turn you're hand to bookkeeping the options would be working for yourself doing just the above or sub contracting your services and being able to do more providing that you are under the supervision of a qualified accountant.

Working as a bookkeeper does count towards your two years post qualification experience where, and only where such is under the supervision of a qualified accountant... Watch out for the unqualified ones as you're not allowed to go anywhere near them.

General unsupervised bookkeeping work can also incorporate Credit Control which comes in two main forms. Either as a call centre type affair which would drive you insane or the traditional credit control function where you do actually use your accountancy skills to work through problem cases.

Working as a bookkeeper you could temp at lots of different practices whilst gaining your post qualification experience. That will give you a real feel for different ways of doing things... I know that you've got 19 years experience but believe me, even coming from the world of banking there's no one set way of doing things... I've worked with three of the four major UK retail banks and non of them work in the same way. (I know that there are five but two of them have the same owner).

In some instances the difference between a bookkeeper and accountant is blurred especially where people have got to the top of the ICB / IAB routes. The accountants working in that market place are doing pretty similar work.

I feel that unless you have other commitments that restrict your availability the real money is however always going to be on the accountancy side rather than the bookkeeping.

Hope that the above answers some of you questions,

good luck,

Shaun.

catcat · Member

Hi Shaun

Thanks for your epic and informative response!

If the ACCA rules take precedence over the ICB then it makes me wonder what is the point of doing the ICB exams? Ok, so if you get the ICB practicing certificate then that covers you for money laundering & PI insurance ... but if all you're doing is basic bookkeeping do you need those anyway? I have also being toying with the idea of giving up the ACCA membership as, aside from relieving me of nearly £200 a year, it doesn't seem to be doing me much good - presumably if I did they couldn't continue to restrict my activities (although it seems an extreme action to take).

So I guess if I remain ACCA I can only offer "basic bookkeeping" (unless I find some sub-contract work) irrespective of whatever other exams I might take. Which is flipping annoying. Ironically if I had never done my ACCA exams I could offer whatever services I liked and no-one would care! (although whether I could get PII on that basis!!)

Catherine

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Catherine.

take a look at http://www.accaglobal.com/pubs/members/professional_standards/prac_info/pih/2936961/PC_factsheet.pdf

It gives the lowdown of all the things that members are not allowed to do without a practicing certificate.

As you state, if we had just gone ICB we would be able to do more than we are as ACCA. But giving it up now after spending thousands of pound and countless hours getting those elusive letters after your name seems too extreme to contemplate.

That leaves just the working for peanuts for two years to get the post qualification experience required for a practicing certificate.

Someone across on Accounting Webb is looking at losing the ACCA and going the IFA route to being an accountant.

Take a glance at

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/item/180777

and also

http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/Forums/tabid/59/forumid/1/postid/307/scope/posts/Default.aspx).

and also

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=84407

Personally I don't like any group that can't think of their own three letter acronym! (Institute of Financial Accountants / Independent Financial Adviser!)

BUT... As I'm finding it really difficult to find a suitably qualified person to employ me in order to get my two years the IFA route might eventually end up as the only sensible option.

Any idea what happens with the ACCA if you leave and then go back later? Do you have to retake all of the exams or are you exempt as you've already passed them once?

Load of reading for you on those links so have fun and talk later,

Shaun.

catcat · Member

Hi Shaun

As you say, seems extreme to give up the ACCA letters - and I don't really want to burn my bridges there incase I end up needing a full-time "proper job" in the future. I had a look on their website and it basically says if you lapse your membership then if you try to rejoin then they will look at your application based on why you decided to lapse in the first place and that they may require you to do all the exams again (which will not be happening!). Oh and of course pay any fees which were still due when the membership lapsed. So it's quite a risk if one decides to leave! I can't see that they'd look too kindly on someone who'd left so they could practice via another institute just because they thought the ACCA rules are too stringent.

But I can't get a practicing cert. via ACCA - the practicing handbook 2009 says that you either need to have had a practicing cert from them before (Catch 22), or have completed the 3 years training with an ACCA Approved Employer (which I haven't). I'm sure I read somewhere that there was another option involving relevant experience but that doesn't seem to be the case.

So basic bookkeeping it is then. Interestingly correspondence with the ACCA has confirmed that although I can only offer basic bookkeeping I can use my FCCA letters on my business card (provided it doesn't say that I'm an accountant, or offering accounting services, or mention that I might be practicing or anything else - basically that I am not holding myself out an accountant). So I can say to people "Well I am ACCA qualified" and if they ask what that means then presumably I reply "Well it's an accounting qualification I have... but I'm not an accountant" - which doesn't confuse the issue at all does it?!

Catherine

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Catherine,

All very good points.

The three years experience is a bit of a strange one. You have to have three years experience but two years of it have to be post qualification. So, like yourself I've got many more than the three years required but it's not post qualification so doesn't count towards the practicing certificate!

Don't quote me on this but I believe that there used to be a relevant experience route but it was offered as an amnesty to some unqualified accountants who had been in practice for a long time. I think that they also had to jump through burning hoops in order to get it such as their work being audited by the ACCA and vouched for by a qualified ACCA or ACA. Pretty sure that route disappeared quite some while back though.

ACCA approved employers don't just come in the flavour of practices. The banks and other major financial institutions are approved employers (even though you can't actually get all of the points on your STR / PER signed off through them!).

Doesn't tutoring also count towards post qualification experience? Might be something worth looking into if teaching evening classes helps at all.

If you do offer bookkeeping services you can actually build up an inventory of clients that makes you of interest to an accountancy practice (which is the route that I'm attempting to take). The general agreement (that probably isn't actually enforceable but should be honoured anyway) is that if / when you leave their practice you agree to not set up practice within 5 miles for a period of 2 years. And also agree not to poach clients, including those that you brought to them in order to get into the firm.

You can see why the ACCA make things so difficult. If it was easy to set up practice with them then their practices would not be so well respected.

Of course, when you have got your practicing certificate most accountants that I know move up the food chain to ICAEW as fast as they can (two years). If you take that route you have to keep both ACCA and ICAEW memberships.... I'd be happy just to get the ACCA practice certificate!

Right, got to go. Look forwards to continuing to put the world of Accountancy and bookkeeping to rights later.

Talk soon,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

One big anomaly with this is the AAT situation.

If your MAAT you can produce accounts and provide advice and call yourself an accountant!

If you then decide to go ACCA, AAT gives exemption from the first three papers and you're no longer allowed to call yourself an accountant or provide many of the services that AAT members are allowed to provide even though you've just moved up a league.

Chatting on this thread is actually serving to renew my annoyance with the system and in particular this discrepancy... I can appreciate that we're not allowed to do Plc's or Audit's or insolvency work but why should the case exist where ACCA members are not entrusted to do the work that AAT members can do?

That's no slight on AAT which is an excellent qualification. But the playing fields not a level one for ACCA members.

I feel strongly worded letters to the ACCA and PQ magazine coming on!... Not that the ACCA will listen but just because nobody's listening has never stopped me throwing my toys out of the pram before!

Talk later,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Well, just spoke with the ICB and I'm officially lost for words... Well almost.

The ICB no longer recognise the ACCA qualification as apparently accountancy is not bookkeeping!!!!.... Personally I always thought that it was the bedrock of it but who am I to argue with the ICB!

Therefore, if you've passed ACCA you will not now be able to use that as exemption from the ICB manual exams.

You just couldn't make this up!

catcat · Member

Oh my goodness!! And there was me, thinking (like you) that book-keeping was basically the whole fundamental to accounting!! I mean I guess that a lot of the ACCA stuff isn't straight bookkeeping, but I can't believe that there are many accountants who don't know what double-entry is!!

Have to say that I wasn't relying on my ACCA qualification to get me through the ICB manual exams - as somewhere on the site it says that you have do have done your qualification within the last 2 years - and mine is very historic!

As I'm going for a (very little) job interview as a bookkeeper on Friday - just what do I say now? [following on from the "not holding oneself out as an accountant" when I have no practicing certificate] "Yes well I am ACCA which does not mean I am accountant, it's just an accountancy qualification, and that has absolutely nothing to do with bookkeeping..." .... exit, stage right...

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Catherine,

excellent news. Good luck with the interview on Friday I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you (so might be typing even slower on Friday folks).

Think that whoever at the ICB is coming up with all these new rules and regulations at the moment must be being sponsored by either the IAB or AAT as they're the one's who are going to benefit from the ICB's ill conceived idea's.

Keep us all informed as to how it goes on Friday won't you.

Good luck again,

Shaun.

Amanda · Expert

Hi
I think I am totally put off by even thinking of doing ACCA at a later date. What a joke!

Are there any problems with CIMA??? Mind you I think the kids need to be older before I go down that route as the study programme I think can be enormous.

A

semsley · Guru

Catherine

If you are going for a job interview as a book-keeper the employer will recognise your ACCA. no matter how old, rather than ICB which s/he will probably never have heard of - so good luck you should be fine, just talk about book-keeping and baffle them with double entry!!!!!

Good luck

Sheila